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9th October 2022, 14:17 | #1721 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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And, to prove the point that there is no clear proof that the treatments are safe or necessary,
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29535563/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32495241/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20646177/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32191677/ https://www.ranzcp.org/news-policy/p...nder-dysphoria https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1...159-7/fulltext https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34665380/ https://www.segm.org/Finland_deviate...ery_for_minors https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/950964 https://www.svtplay.se/video/3335859...dren-avsnitt-1 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34665380/ Stewart's position is either that the research cited above and all the research like it does not exist, or that it exists and it should be ignored. Quote:
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9th October 2022, 14:23 | #1722 | |
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Stay shook. No sook. |
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9th October 2022, 14:25 | #1723 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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So treat it like you would the info in that other thread: check the publishers; check the references; check the citations; check the professional credentials of the authors relative to the topic.
if, for example, the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists says "Gender Dysphoria is an emerging field of research and, at present, there is a paucity of evidence" -- as it does -- I am more inclined to pay attention than to, say, Jon Stewart trying to get clout. |
9th October 2022, 14:36 | #1724 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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Although, now that I think about it, that quote itself is an aspect of the problem. To understand it you have to know what "paucity" means. That makes it bad communication. If you come to that quote convinced that there IS clear evidence, and you read the quote without knowing what a paucity is, you would come away without having had your position challenged. You might even come away feeling like your beliefs had been - what's the word? - affirmed.
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9th October 2022, 14:54 | #1725 |
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The transphobic lobby isn't concerned about people's health, they're a tool to stoke the culture war and secure religious conservatives.
They're not saying take a cautious approach but rather restricting this heathcare outright against the recommendations of most major health institutions, of which don't hold the position that the current research body justifies this approach.
__________________
Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
9th October 2022, 14:59 | #1726 | |
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Unless we're all experts now? The era of the layperson has lapsed? One person's ignorance is as good as another's knowledge? What I do is I assure myself that the institutions responsible are sufficiently legitimate. And if I'm not assured I can only acknowledge I don't know and speak out for improved legitimacy.
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Stay shook. No sook. |
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9th October 2022, 15:07 | #1727 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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9th October 2022, 15:10 | #1728 |
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No they don't. The science isn't what you make it out to be.
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Stay shook. No sook. |
9th October 2022, 15:13 | #1729 |
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A handful of inconclusive studies doesn't trump most health institutions.
That's antivax, climate change denial, the moon landing is fake, Peter Ellis is a gay pedo shit
__________________
Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong. |
9th October 2022, 15:20 | #1730 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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You should take that up with the health institutions around the world, including NZ, that say there’s no conclusive proof of anything yet.
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9th October 2022, 15:33 | #1731 |
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Are you suggesting the research you've encountered is the full sum of research available?
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Stay shook. No sook. |
9th October 2022, 17:49 | #1732 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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Where did I say that?
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9th October 2022, 18:36 | #1733 | |
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I guess now we can move on to the more useful conversation about whether or not intersex and trans people constitute a vulnerable minority. |
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9th October 2022, 19:25 | #1734 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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It is a disorder that has really only existed since teenage girls discovered Tumblr and Instagram in about 2015. That is not enough time for there to have been enough studies conducted to prove, and yes I'm going to say it, anything. Fuck we're still crunching the numbers to see if saturated fats actually cause heart disease and that issue was declared over in the fucking 1950s (surprise! looks like it doesn't! it actually looks like vegetable oil is WORSE for you than animal fat!) I do note that countries that have the most socialised healthcare systems, countries like Sweden and Finland, are the ones banning the treatments described above because of the absence of useful data. It's the country where healthcare is a get-rich-quick scheme for private enterprise where objections holding up surgery are thrown out because the issue is settled, why would the companies that stand to make all that money lie to Americans? |
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9th October 2022, 20:19 | #1735 | |
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9th October 2022, 23:23 | #1736 | |
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10th October 2022, 01:04 | #1737 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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Nowhere, anywhere, ever, did I claim that the research I've encountered is the full sum of research available. It's just easy to find lots of articles in peer-reviewed journals and articles from health institutions around the world that say, and I paraphrase, "there is as yet no consensus about the safety and necessity of these treatments and the studies that have been done to date are of limited usefulness, are methodologically questionable, and so far can't be replicated". But it's OK, Jon Stewart thinks the studies don't exist.
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10th October 2022, 11:30 | #1738 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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10th October 2022, 13:59 | #1739 | |
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You're approaching health science from the same epistemological stance as you would old school physics. This is not how it works. That's not what health science is for. That there are endless examples of horrifying bullshit is a function of inequality. Something health science is compelled incorporate in its findings, in how these findings are applied to practice. That you expect different is a function of privilege. It's not like institutions are oblivious to all that goes wrong, all that gets pushed too far or taken the wrong way. But we don't have the luxury of sorting it all out. The next pile-on is already on the horizon. But I get it, your ignorance is as good as anyone's knowledge, you won't give up the fight until sport is fair.
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Stay shook. No sook. Last edited by Lightspeed : 10th October 2022 at 14:02. |
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10th October 2022, 14:29 | #1740 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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Going by an inequality metric like Gini, it would appear that the less inequality a society has, the more likely it is to be banning "gender affirming" surgery for children because of an absence of data supporting it as safe or necessary.
Sweden, Gini rank 141: not enough data that it's safe, gender surgery banned for children Finland, Gini rank 148: not enough data that it's safe, gender surgery banned for children Denmark, Gini rank 148: not enough data that it's safe, gender surgery banned for children USA, Gini rank 46: will Madam be paying by cash? https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/ind....GINI/rankings |
10th October 2022, 14:29 | #1741 |
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@LS have you ever been directly exposed to how broken, compromised, wrong, and damaging institutional decision making and guidelines can be?
ESPECIALLY medical institutions? |
10th October 2022, 14:33 | #1742 |
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Yes, absolutely. Directly exposed, in the room as it happens exposed. Walking out the room struggling to keep balance exposed.
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Stay shook. No sook. |
10th October 2022, 16:17 | #1743 |
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Just asking. As a balance given the talk of accepting institutional stances on things.
As have I. Convulsing, panic attack, uncontrollably trembling, uncontrallable sweating, insomina, panic, suicidal thoughts direct. One of those "Oh it must be psychosomatic, not the fact we pulled your meds and replaced them with a generic which we the committee declare are identical even though we didn't test them, so therefore you and the entire >7000 strong petition of people seriously affected, to the point of protesting outside parliament, are just wrong, placebo, nocebo sufferers, even the dead ones" |
10th October 2022, 16:39 | #1744 |
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Yeah, and the decisions that are being made like this are being made in the context of "there's this volume of need and these resources available".
There are so, so many situations where there are ONLY bad decisions. Like, nightmare calls. You're having to choose between who will suffer what nightmare. But hey, let's fight for fairness is sport.
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Stay shook. No sook. |
10th October 2022, 20:39 | #1745 | |
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It's sad that your possibility space for what it is to be a human being is so narrow, and that as a society we are, apparently, so insecure that we have to invalidate whole groups of people in this way. |
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10th October 2022, 21:26 | #1746 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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Read the specific words that I used.
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10th October 2022, 22:40 | #1747 |
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Oh, I did. I'm just not sure that the specific words that you used render what I'm saying irrelevant.
Like, are you saying that your whole entire problem is with "adolescent rapid onset gender dysphoria" and absolutely nothing else about trans, intersex and/or non-binary people? Because I've gotta say, if that's what you're now claiming is the whole problem, then it seems weird that previously you would have claimed that there were only two sexes/genders. See, if that was what you were saying, then as I understand it you're happy with, for example, public funding for people transitioning as long as they don't have the sudden realisation that this is what they want specifically during their adolescent years. If they have that sudden realisation at the age of 21 instead of 17, you'd be okay with it because they wouldn't be an adolescent any more? Are you telling me that this bit of it is literally the *only* bit that you really care about? Because what I'm saying is kinda more aimed at what I perceive as your whole attitude, given the history of the discussions we've had, and the various things you've been posting, rather than this one particular claim. |
10th October 2022, 22:43 | #1748 |
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Also, surely you don't think that just because a particular mental disposition in adolescents is only recently named and diagnosed implies that it *never existed prior to that point in time*? Things have to exist to be discovered. You get that, right?
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11th October 2022, 01:14 | #1749 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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Quick summary.
Sex in humans is binary and immutable. There are only two sexes; 99.98% of humanity is clearly identifiable as being on one of two developmental pathways. We do not have technology of a level to change an individual from one to the other. Gender dysphoria is real, and incredibly rare, and historically it almost only ever affects boys, and those boys display that dysphoria early and it's obvious to everyone around them. This is different from the paraphilia of autogynephilia, which manifests itself in sexually mature men as arousal caused by the thought and sight of themselves as women. We're not talking about those fetishists. For any young person to experience gender dysphoria is incredibly rare. For that young person to be female is unbelievably rare. For that young female person to suddenly become dysphoric, with no previous signs, is almost impossibly rare. For that young female person to suddenly display dysphoria as part of a group of young female people all suddenly displaying dysphoria together with no previous signs, ok now you're just fucking with me. It's so rare that there are basically no instances of it ever happening in recorded history until the past five years or so. Fortunately there are instances of other psychological phenomena suddenly manifesting themselves in groups of young females so at least we have other points of reference. (Not always females, but usually.) Examples are anorexia, cutting, glossolalia, tremors, demonic possession, etc. We call these things "crazes". They are catchable and transmissible, and statistically girls on the autism spectrum are more susceptible to them. Historically the remedy for such things is time. The sufferers just grow out of it; they realise “wow, puberty sucks for everyone” or "oh shit, I just have Aspergers" or "well fuck, I'm a lesbian". The people enabling them end up looking silly and hopefully apologetic. Sometimes individuals caught up in the crazes get hanged; sometimes they go to jail and die of cancer and the NZ Supreme Court only exonerates them after death. However, two big and problematic differences exist with this craze: 1. An anorexic girl who gets over it can return to a normal weight. But a gender dysphoric girl who goes to a doctor who cuts off her breasts and cuts out her uterus and puts her on hormone replacement therapy is fucked for life. A boy who goes on puberty blockers will never experience orgasm or sexual pleasure. Ever. 2. There was no "demonic possession industry" that had a vested interest in girls permanently complaining about evil spirits and which made more money the more that girls spread the evil spirits to their friends. There were no cutting referral schemes. There were no "anorexia industry sector planners" making investment projections based on current rates of contagion. For this craze, there's all that stuff. In the USA, all that surgery and all that treatment is the sound of cash registers ringing for ever for the medical-industrial complex. |
11th October 2022, 01:57 | #1751 |
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Hmm. I guess you didn't get to page 3.
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11th October 2022, 02:17 | #1752 |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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"In the early 21st century some people decided to call themselves something" isn't exactly compelling. Reclaiming a word? Sounds more like appropriating it.
Trivia: Tūtānekai is my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather. |
11th October 2022, 02:32 | #1753 | |||
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Given the narrow communications bandwidth in the prehistoric, pre-internet times, and the fact that most of that bandwidth was controlled by either large corporations or the state, there wasn't a whole lot of space or opportunities for people to share their experiences of dysphoria with a large audience, and since those things weren't easy to share most people who had those experiences didn't really know what to call it or how to have a conversation about it, or whether other people were having the same experiences. Homosexuality was considered a disorder in the DSM-1, now it is widely recognised that an individual's sexual orientation is complex and not necessarily something susceptible to treatment or choice. So it's not unprecedented that something which is perceived as a disorder at one point can subsequently become a legitimate mode of being further down the line. Quote:
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2 is some a-grade tin-foil hat conspiracy juice. |
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11th October 2022, 02:53 | #1754 | |||
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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11th October 2022, 08:35 | #1755 |
Don't worry, be harpy
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Weird side note, I was one of those. At 16, had no idea what I was, hated attention from guys, and took my fear and revulsion to mean I wasn't right and asked a doctor if I could get a hysterectomy as clearly, I didn't fit what society told me "woman" was.
He had a laugh and told me to think on it for the next 20 years or so. 20 years later, two kids later, I do look back and I only see the fear and lack of belonging, and the undeveloped kids brain that processed thought in absolutes due to lack of experience. What's wrong is what society tells us woman and man is, not biologically, but culturally - and I can see all this shit getting a lot worse until we stop letting our kids be raised by marketing companies. |
11th October 2022, 11:46 | #1756 | ||
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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Are you collecting any data? “No!” |
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11th October 2022, 11:50 | #1757 | |
A mariachi ogre snorkel
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11th October 2022, 12:15 | #1758 |
I have detailed files
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Heh - I see what you did there. I held off mentioning anything about riding around under an assumed name until Lorenzo found herself.
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11th October 2022, 12:58 | #1759 | |
Don't worry, be harpy
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11th October 2022, 13:39 | #1760 | |
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In an ideal world our healthcare services would be resourced enough to help people navigate all this. They're not. And so people are screwed by inequality on both ends. And NOW the whole thing has essentially becoming meme-ified, and we all know how memes take on a life of their own far beyond their point of origin. And then, THEN we're surprised that in our winner-takes-all society that people and organisations leverage this dynamic for their own agendas and gain. Look at Ab's dramatic response, you can almost taste the dopamine. Congrats on the kids CW. 😁
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