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Old 16th February 2020, 03:09     #401
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
I am saying no ambassador for LGBTQ will ever be woke enough to represent the fragmented and disagreeable "community".
It's not a community. At least, not as described. The defining characteristic of LGB people is same-sex attraction. In that sense the TQ people do not necessarily have anything in common with them. A lot of the tension - at least, as I have had it explained to me - is that the LGB community has fought long and hard for same-sex attraction to be accepted, and now that the battle is basically won some newcomers have attached themselves to the movement and decided to rewrite it as never having been about the right to love who you want in the first place - it was about "identity".
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Old 16th February 2020, 14:17     #402
Lightspeed
 
You guys at best have token acquaintances that fall outside the gender and sex norms of your grandparents, right?

These are things that you only participate in via the media. That's not a question, I'm just pointing out it's obvious.
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Old 16th February 2020, 14:47     #403
Nich
 
Let's not succumb to ad hominem attacks.

This is impossible to address. If I do list my close relationships then I'll be accused of keeping score and that it's such a hetro-normative thing to do to stay on the right side of history. If I don't list anything then I am the transphobic bigot you imagine, and failure to play is the proof.
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Old 16th February 2020, 15:23     #404
Lightspeed
 
What debate do you think we're having?

I would tell a story, rather than provide a list. Be vulnerable, transparent, focusing on myself, rather than others. Reflect on why this has my attention, how this will be influencing my perspective.

You're demonstrating a lack of awareness, insight. I'm not making an attack, I'm just telling you.
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Old 16th February 2020, 17:57     #405
Nich
 
Again, you're prescribing that I assume my own strawman. If I write from my own personal perspective, then that's just a sample size of 1, and nothing conclusive could be drawn from my anecdotes. Also, it is personal, and I don't think it bears repeating on an internet discussion.

But I'll indulge.

Some personal observations:
- I know more openly gay couples than I do openly homophobic persons
- I have never witnessed any prejudice or violence against any homosexuals, or transsexuals
- I can't recall any news headlines about violence against gays or transsexuals (except lovers squabbles, and suicides). I'm sure if I went looking for it I would find it.
- I was in a 4 year relationship with a prominent musician who was very vocal, outspoken ex-lesbian, then bi (it was complicated). Through her, I got to travel NZ, and got to know people of just about any combination of identities and sexuality you could imagine. They knew they didn't fit into mainstream, but they lead some great lives of self-sustaining, green, vegan, zero waste, et al. They knew there were bigots and people who wouldn't like/approve of them, but they just avoided those people.
- I lived on Cross St / K Rd for 3 years and thought that the Caluzzi Bar & Cabaret was crucial to the K Rd'ness of the neighbourhood
- I remember growing up with Eddie Izzard, Julian Clary, Dame Edna, David Bowie, Prince, Marilyn Manson. Queer used to be part of mainstream culture. What happened?
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Old 16th February 2020, 19:02     #406
Lightspeed
 
Here's how it is. When I think to myself "why am I fixating on this, why do I need opinions on this" in regards to sex and gender I get terribly embarrassed because I come across my insecurities. And so, I don't share those opinions, in fact don't bother to form them, because I know I'm just building a facade around my doubts and fears, at which point they're hidden even from myself. I prefer to know what I'm about.

And so, when I see you creating these stories, justifying your involvement, despite these not being pressing issues for you, I see the same thing. I see the shame at the core of the opinion. This evokes the response you're seeing.

You of course have opportunity to demonstrate something else. Right now you're like grandpa having a go at being progressive, except you're not grandpa.
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Old 16th February 2020, 20:46     #407
Cyberbob
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
there will never be an LGBTQ+ candidate, because it is an impossible unicorn of a condition statement
Which reminds me of the "Minorities" label. Just because you're a minority candidate, doesn't mean you'll be in touch with all the other minorities needs.
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Old 16th February 2020, 21:04     #408
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
That's the thing about representative democracy, the whole point is to appeal to majorities.
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Old 16th February 2020, 21:14     #409
crocos
 
You mean it's NOT to represent and reflect the population? I am SHOCKED. Just shocked I tell you!
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Old 16th February 2020, 21:43     #410
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
I didn't say represent, I said appeal to. You can't get elected unless you appeal to more people than your competition.
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Old 17th February 2020, 10:54     #411
Cyberbob
 
Candidate 1: Vegetables!
Candidate 2: Ice cream!

Still relevant: Democracy Simply Doesn't Work
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Old 17th February 2020, 12:15     #412
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
I didn't say represent, I said appeal to. You can't get elected unless you appeal to more people than your competition.
Sorry, forgot the sarcasm tags.
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Old 17th February 2020, 12:24     #413
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberbob
Candidate 1: Vegetables!
Candidate 2: Ice cream!

Still relevant: Democracy Simply Doesn't Work
The vegetable candidate’s campaign was not helped by the presence of noisy activists protesting that he did not acknowledge the aims and aspirations of the fungi community, that he hadn’t apologised for the colonisation of weed peoples by Western food crops, and that he was guilty of erasure and hate speech by occupying space that could otherwise go to a biologically-vegetable candidate who identified as an animal.

Of course, Ice cream won in a landslide and ushered in a nightmare reign of oppression and tyranny, but hey at least we didn’t get the wrong sort of vegetable.
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Old 17th February 2020, 13:31     #414
fixed_truth
 
I guess it's purposely done by media that there's a disproportionate focus on noisy activists which have fuck all power compared to the elite lobbyists.
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Old 17th February 2020, 13:59     #415
Lightspeed
 
Very angry

What? No! Them homos are totally worth all the attention we give them!

Amirite, guys?
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Old 17th February 2020, 14:39     #416
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Well the people wanted to give the homo their attention, but he was interrupted by the intersectionality purity police.
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Old 17th February 2020, 14:58     #417
Lightspeed
 
Well of course. Giving "the" homo is a contradiction, contradictions have consequences.
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Old 17th February 2020, 15:05     #418
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Well of course. Giving "the" homo attention is a contradiction, contradictions have consequences.
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Old 17th February 2020, 15:11     #419
Nich
 
It's worth attention even if you're straight, white, and pretending to be progressive like me.

If a cultural shift is causing:
- HR policy rewrites
- hiring and firing based on the re-writes
- diversity quotas instead of meritocracy
- forced resignations
- fire alarms being pulled in lecture theatres
- policing of language regarding pronouns
- businesses offering hormone injections to children and teens

well, these things don't affect me directly but I can smell the smoke! Is it all good changes, or all bad changes? I don't know but I'm eager to see what this all means for the future. Sure, I commit thought crime, and I'm part of the patriarchy, but I am certainly interested in these things, and have a few opinions.

Also, the homos are the least of our worries in all this. This covers such a broad spectrum of race, sexuality, feminism, genders, biology, attacks on science ... It's not good enough to say "If you're white, straight, and male your insight is of no value."
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Old 18th February 2020, 12:24     #420
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
This is an interesting episode of the BBC podcast “Seriously”:

The Purity Spiral

Content warning: knitting
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Old 18th February 2020, 20:16     #421
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
It's worth attention even if you're straight, white, and pretending to be progressive like me.

If a cultural shift is causing:
- HR policy rewrites
- hiring and firing based on the re-writes
- diversity quotas instead of meritocracy
- forced resignations
- fire alarms being pulled in lecture theatres
- policing of language regarding pronouns
- businesses offering hormone injections to children and teens

well, these things don't affect me directly but I can smell the smoke! Is it all good changes, or all bad changes? I don't know but I'm eager to see what this all means for the future. Sure, I commit thought crime, and I'm part of the patriarchy, but I am certainly interested in these things, and have a few opinions.

Also, the homos are the least of our worries in all this. This covers such a broad spectrum of race, sexuality, feminism, genders, biology, attacks on science ... It's not good enough to say "If you're white, straight, and male your insight is of no value."
Specifically what cultural shift, according to whom, why them? How did you come to know about it? What's your dominant sources of information? How do you know you have a complete knowledge, rather than just the compelling edges, or just what others want you to know? Why this aspect of our culture of when there are so many of others of dramatic consequence? Both shifts and lack of movement where it appears essential.

If you are committing thought crime, who have you instituted as thought police? How'd you find yourself under such authority, cause no one polices my thoughts except me. Have you not noticed?

You can have the opinions you want. They don't have to be robust. You can eat McDonalds every day if you choose, too.
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Old 18th February 2020, 22:08     #422
Nich
 
Socratic questioning!? Ain't nobody got time for that.
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Old 19th February 2020, 12:06     #423
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Oh god the woke commisariat just noticed that Peter Singer exists.
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Old 19th February 2020, 12:32     #424
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
It's not a community. At least, not as described. The defining characteristic of LGB people is same-sex attraction. In that sense the TQ people do not necessarily have anything in common with them. A lot of the tension - at least, as I have had it explained to me - is that the LGB community has fought long and hard for same-sex attraction to be accepted, and now that the battle is basically won some newcomers have attached themselves to the movement and decided to rewrite it as never having been about the right to love who you want in the first place - it was about "identity".

From the you can’t make this stuff up dept:

The only lesbian event at this year’s Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras has been deleted from the program because lesbian same-sex attraction is transphobic

Quote:
After a petition demanding lesbian YouTuber Arielle Scarcella be no-platformed from a panel called Les-Talk, one of the events featured at Sydney Mardi Gras, the local Pride parade and festival, the event was removed from Pride. Trans activists began a petition demanding Scarcella be removed on account of her view that it is not “transphobic” for lesbians to not be attracted to trans-identified males.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
In all seriousness though - if the transgender activist movement were actually a patriarchy covert op with its goal the erasure of womanness from public life, how would it differ from the transgender activist movement we have now?
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Old 19th February 2020, 13:46     #425
pxpx
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Specifically what cultural shift, according to whom, why them? How did you come to know about it? What's your dominant sources of information? How do you know you have a complete knowledge, rather than just the compelling edges, or just what others want you to know? Why this aspect of our culture of when there are so many of others of dramatic consequence?

Sounds like something the thought police would say! *squints suspiciously*
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Old 19th February 2020, 13:52     #426
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
Socratic questioning!? Ain't nobody got time for that.
You've got plenty of time to titilate yourself with ideas of other people's sexual identity tho.

It's so fucking cringe, but carry on.
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Old 19th February 2020, 18:40     #427
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Oh god the woke commisariat just noticed that Peter Singer exists.
...aaaaaand unpersoned, just like that. Boy the mob moves fast these days.

Peter Singer event cancelled in New Zealand after outcry over disability stance

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ability-stance

Note: this guy is arguably the greatest living moral philosopher
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Old 19th February 2020, 19:05     #428
Nich
 
LS,
you've distorted and misunderstood my position. I think we are shooting for the same end goal, but are getting stuck on a point of distinction.

I draw a distinction between Individuals, identity group labels, and representatives speaking on behalf of identity groups. When I attack representatives of LGBTQ, I am not attacking people who would categorise themselves in this group.

I criticise what people do, and it is unfair to make an issue out of something they have no control over.

Now, my criticism: If any progress is to be made in any pursuit, don't broaden the scope so much that you risk misaligned (or conflicting) objectives from those involved.
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Old 19th February 2020, 22:48     #429
Lightspeed
 
I'm saying progress is getting along just fine and you're caught up in someone's dog and pony show.
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Old 19th February 2020, 23:08     #430
Nich
 
"Stay in your lane." gotcha
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Old 20th February 2020, 00:02     #431
Lightspeed
 
Your defensiveness only makes me even more curious what this is about you.

The questions I've posed I offered for you to reflect on, not as an inquisition.
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Old 20th February 2020, 00:23     #432
Lightspeed
 
Here's something a bit more present in our own lives:

Consent is 'a sober yes' - Police ready for Orientation Week


Quote:
Sex is for the sober, police say, ahead of universities' orientation week parties.
Certainly a challenge to cultural norms.
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Old 20th February 2020, 14:40     #433
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
UK Labour leadership candidate calls for law change to force women’s refuges to admit biological males if they claim to identify as women

Bailey also endorsed a charter calling for expulsion of any Party members expressing support for organizations including Women’s Place UK and the LGB Alliance.

Acknowledging that women exist or that same-sex attraction is valid is now thoughtcrime. I mean, has always been thoughtcrime. Obviously.
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Old 20th February 2020, 15:54     #434
StN
I have detailed files
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Here's something a bit more present in our own lives:

Consent is 'a sober yes' - Police ready for Orientation Week




Certainly a challenge to cultural norms.
I'd hazard a guess that half of the constabulary wouldn't be here without the help of a bottle of the old Maison de ouvre-jambe.
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Old 21st February 2020, 18:50     #435
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
The questions I've posed I offered for you to reflect on, not as an inquisition.
Aah, the "Old man from the mountain" greater wisdom fallacy.
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Old 21st February 2020, 21:30     #436
Lightspeed
 
Are you sure it's a fallacy? It's not possible I've actually got some wisdom, earned through disciplined effort? Efforts Nich has some awareness of through our previous personal relationship?
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Old 21st February 2020, 22:45     #437
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Female prisoner raped by trans inmate in women’s prison, has rape report dismissed as “transphobia”

https://news.wttw.com/2020/02/19/law...sgender-inmate
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Old 21st February 2020, 22:47     #438
Lightspeed
 
I shudder at that thought of all the articles you come across in your information bubble that you don't post.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 10:46     #439
Nich
 
cmon, you asked me to reveal my personal relationship to this. Its all about who i am as a person, and not what was said.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 15:15     #440
Lightspeed
 
You're already revealing yourself. Your arse is waving about in the breeze. I'm trying to get you to notice, so you cover up and stop embarrassing yourself.

If you think I'm just some chump who knows nothing about nothing, you can correct me or ignore me, as you prefer.
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