National Thus Far

[Ab]

Article entitled “highest rate since records began”: 13.67 deaths per 100,000ppl in 2018-19

Ministry of Health, suicide rate 20 years ago: 15.1 deaths per 100,000ppl in 1998-99
https://www.health.govt.nz/publicati...ables-19962015

Me: called it

[Lightspeed]

Yeah... that's... a newspaper's editorial decision is the thing to focus on here.

[Ab]

MoH:

The peak rate (...) was in 1998 (15.1 per 100,000 population) and the lowest rate was in 2014 (10.8 per 100,000).

Is it that the suicide rate spikes when we have female Labour PMs?

[Ab]

All jesting aside, read:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12262081

...and count the occurrences of the words male, men, or boys.

[CCS]

Ah, but it does mention Maori and Pasific suicides. Hencewhy colonialism.

[Ab]

Kinda hard to fix a problem when it's politically incorrect to even acknowledge that it exists.

[Ab]

Article proclaims: 685 deaths from suicide in the past year
Article doesn't mention: 498 were male

[fixed_truth]

I reckon New Zealand's masculine culture has quite a toxic element and unfortunately 'right-wing' ideology like personal responsibility, individualism & minimal Govt. intervention contributes to the problem as it results in men internalising society's message that any problem is their fault and that asking for help is weak.

[Ab]

What’s the male suicide rate like in countries that aren’t NZ?

[pxpx]

I wonder if the woke left's demonisation of 'cis' males also contributes?

[CCS]

Telling males that their masculinity is toxic probably doesn't help.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Ab

Article entitled “highest rate since records began”: 13.67 deaths per 100,000ppl in 2018-19

Ministry of Health, suicide rate 20 years ago: 15.1 deaths per 100,000ppl in 1998-99
https://www.health.govt.nz/publicati...ables-19962015

Me: called it

After reading deeper in the MoH numbers:

18.5 deaths per 100,000ppl in 1927-29.

Our current suicide rate isn't even close to our highest rate ever.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by CCS

Telling males that their masculinity is toxic probably doesn't help.

Maybe we should listen to the trans community when they point out that being told there's something wrong with you your whole life has bad mental health outcomes.

[fixed_truth]

It's not telling males that their masculinity is toxic, it's saying that elements of it can be. Obviously it needs explained in a way that doesn't come across as 'your a man therefore you're toxic'. For example showing emotion or asking for help is not a weakness. Cultural masculine norms DO see it as a weakness and this is toxic (harmful) to men.

[Lightspeed]

It's not about men. It's about vulnerability.

If you've found yourself vulnerable in recent years, you've found yourself fucked.

Men are in an awkward spot, because they're both the least and most vulnerable group. But it's the general gearing down of support for people in need that we're seeing the consequences of.

[CCS]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

It's not telling males that their masculinity is toxic, it's saying that elements of it can be.

No, it's not even parts of masculinity that are toxic. If anything, it's that some people (arseholes) are saying that some arsehole behaviours are what is expected of a man. That's not the fault of men or masculinity. It's the fault of arsehole people who justify their arsehole attitudes by blaming their arsehole concept masculinity. To be more precise - the problem is arseholes (toxic individuals) - not masculinity.

Don't tell people their masculinity is toxic. Tell them that certain behaviours or attitudes (ones that can come from people of either gender) are shitty.

[Lightspeed]

Terms like toxic masculinity emerge as a result of people attempting to grapple with and communicate complex phenomena. Phenomena people are compelled to grapple with because of the distress they generate.

Inside the institutions they emerge from, these terms are typically held carefully, with an appreciation that they're attempts to communicate rather than descriptions of reality.

Terms that really capture something eventually enter public consciousness where they're stretched and distorted beyond their original form, take on a life of their own.

Kind of a no-win situation. But really it's just another part of the dynamic. Certainly not a reason to stop grappling.

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by CCS

No, it's not even parts of masculinity that are toxic. If anything, it's that some people (arseholes) are saying that some arsehole behaviours are what is expected of a man. That's not the fault of men or masculinity. It's the fault of arsehole people who justify their arsehole attitudes by blaming their arsehole concept masculinity. To be more precise - the problem is arseholes (toxic individuals) - not masculinity.

Don't tell people their masculinity is toxic. Tell them that certain behaviours or attitudes (ones that can come from people of either gender) are shitty.

If some arseholes are saying what behaviours are what is expected of a man; and these concepts are being conformed to on a large scale by other men; then by definition that is masculinity because masculinity is (mostly) a social construct of 'qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of men'. I disagree that it’s formed by some arseholes but rather the collective views/expectations of society.

A recent example where there’s still a long way to go is how society views male victims of spousal abuse. It's not just some arseholes it's a gradual change where as a society we go from laughing at a weak man who can't handle his woman to acknowledging it as a legitimate form of abuse.

Also we should definitely be telling people that their masculinity can be harmful, because by helping them challenge these ideas they have about what they can and can't do you're helping them deal with their inner conflicts over these social expectations eg it's okay to ask for help if you're depressed.

[DrTiTus]

Is anyone here actually willing to discuss their own depression or attempted suicide?

If you haven't personally battled depression, then it's likely hard for you to relate or contribute meaningfully beyond speculation. If you have, but can't/won't talk about it, then you're perpetuating the idea that men can't talk about it (+ Pepsi).

At the risk of emasculating myself, I'll admit that I do suffer from depression from time to time, usually triggered or worsened by alcohol. You are all probably familiar with me drinking. I've never felt so bad that I wanted to end my life (although I've been mortified), and I prefer to self medicate with weed and the occasional dance party.

I've never felt the need or understood the point, personally, of calling a hotline and talking to a stranger (here's a forum full of them!), and I don't see that it's the government's fault or responsibility for how I feel (so I find it a bit weird that we're having a suicide discussion in a National party thread). I do feel that I alone am responsible for making the choices that contribute to my well being, but I am fortunate enough that I have wonderful parents, a great boss, and a few really good friends so I do have support if I need it. I'm not sure that a person who has/feels like they have no-one that cares about them will gain much by talking to a stranger as opposed to actually finding a friend who does care. I'm not a fan of anti-depressants, and I have never been so bad that I felt I needed them (because weed), but I assume some of you have been on them at some point.

So, having said that, don't blame or rely on the government too much - obviously we have government funded doctors, medicine and counselling already. If you are having issues, get sober, self reflect, appreciate what you do have, and actually talk about. If anyone else wants to talk about their own experience, then that is probably 100x more useful than blaming the transweirdo/social justice feminist/race war crew for forcing their own experiences into the spotlight and making everything the fault of white men and their colonialism (I've never personally taken over a country or employed a man instead of a woman only to have to pay him more). When it comes to suicide, we've been told over and over - talk about it. Maybe it's actually that easy?

[CCS]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

If some arseholes are saying what behaviours are what is expected of a man; and these concepts are being conformed to on a large scale by other men;

But it's not. SOME men. Not ALL men.

Also we should definitely be telling people that their masculinity can be harmful

No. Because it is not masculinity that is harmful. Telling people their masculinity is harmful is part of the problem.

[Lightspeed]

I would argue one problem is some people only have energy for these discussions when they feel they have something to defend. "Not ALL men!"

Otherwise they're disinterested in the discussion, in reflecting on a variety of perspectives. The only thing they have to say is "not me!"

[fixed_truth]

CCS – you’re just redefining the standard definition of masculinity and how it’s developed (i.e to it not being constructed based on social, cultural, and contextual norms) and then arguing from there.

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

I'm not sure that a person who has/feels like they have no-one that cares about them will gain much by talking to a stranger as opposed to actually finding a friend who does care.

That’s a good point. I think as well as normalising the act of asking for help, it should also be normalised to ask if people are okay ie to provide an opportunity for people to speak up. I grew up in a rural farming area and things are slowly changing (it's really being pushed to ask for help) but it’s really hard to break through the stigma.

[StN]

Who watches the watchmen?

[pxpx]

Originally Posted by StN

Who watches the watchmen?

I dunno, Coastguard?

[Ab]

It ain’t easy being male:

https://areomagazine.com/2019/08/22/...rn-women-back/

[Lightspeed]

I think we just need to agree shit is hard out there. If we all had a bit more compassion and generosity we could all go a lot further.

Clutching to what we have barely serves us in the short term. We're fucked in the long term.

[CCS]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

CCS – you’re just redefining the standard definition of masculinity

No I'm not. I'm drawing a distinction between masculinity as it has always been and this woke concept of 'toxic masculinity'. You're trying to conflate the two.

[fixed_truth]

I’ve said that not all masculinity is toxic. I think that we can agree that things like ‘men don’t cry' and ‘asking for help is weak’ are societal expectations of men that are harmful. Again, these types of toxic traits traditionally associated with masculinity do not mean that men are toxic or that masculinity is de facto toxic.

Also masculinity is generally understood by most of academia to be socially constructed so I’m not sure what you mean by ‘as it has always been’.

[fixed_truth]

More of the burn the house down approach from National.
Police Association says National playing politics with gun laws

Police Association president Chris Cahill said Mr Bridges was wrong to say the gun buyback scheme had been a fiasco, saying anyone who has been to a buyback event or talked to someone who took part would know the opposite to be true.

He said not supporting the second tranche of legislation due to be introduced later next month - which would create a gun register and tighter firearms regulations - was putting politics ahead of meaningful reform.

"I would say this isn't the opportunity to play politics, it's way more important than that... we've seen what happens in America when politics stops meaningful reform, New Zealand needs to be better than that," he said.

[blynk]

Yep, its a shame.
its probably more detrimental for Bridges to talk about it like that.
We support this and that we think it is a bipartisan issue that needs to be dealt with.
Because then his supporters will think he is weak because he is working with Labour.

[crocos]

Originally Posted by blynk

its detrimental for Bridges to talk.

There, fixed that for you because everything Bridges has been spouting makes him seem like a Wannabe Trump

[Cyberbob]

[Lightspeed]

A vote for National next election is a vote to ignore climate change. Fight me.

[Ab]

I'm out of the loop on this one. What are National's climate policies?

[Lightspeed]

I'm not sure about policy, but it's their practice to sneer at climate change activism.

[fixed_truth]

Kids will grow out of climate change activism when the world doesn't end - Judith Collins

Judith Collins has hit out at youth fighting to have climate change taken seriously, saying their fears are unfounded.

Dangerous dog whistling

[Ab]

dog whistling?

[fixed_truth]

Behind her patronising young people is climate denial for the boomers

[Ab]

EVERYONE patronises young people. Because they're young people.

BTW there were two people getting interviewed there.

Labour MP Willie Jackson said climate change is "a big thing for a number of young ones".

"But... sometimes young ones have got to just have a relax, have a good time too. As well as save the world."

FWIW I find the whole Greta Thunberg circus quite distasteful.

[Lightspeed]

Only one interviewee is telling us our fears about climate change are unfounded.

On a scale of distasteful things in the world right now the Thurnberg circus doesn't even bear mention.

It's more desperate and sad really. Except instead of a forlorn hope for unrequited love, it's a future worth living in we're having to accept won't be ours.