Random Thoughts II

[Cyberbob]

Originally Posted by Ab

Governments are instituted by the voters.

Climate change is an issue that primarily affects future generations.

Future generations don't vote.

"We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children."

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Cyberbob

"We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children."

Not if we were all to spontaneously decide to stop having children.

[aR Que]

yes, 'decide'.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Nothing

Not if we were all to spontaneously decide to stop having children.

Looks like the environment is taking that decision out of our hands, eh?

[Lightspeed]

So it's all ours, mwuuuahahahahahah!

[aR Que]

pack kids onto a space ship and shoot them at mars. get them to send back my fucking pension money.

me, personally, i just hope for a good exchange rate.

[crocos]

Originally Posted by Spink

It looks like crocos

Nah, too much hair.

[Lightspeed]

Makes for a slow work day when most of your business tools are in the cloud and your ISP is having international bandwidth issues...

[Waldo]

but the 'cloud' provides greater reliability surely

[Lightspeed]

Well, more reliable than anything that could be deployed locally for the same cost. But clearly not without limitations.

[StN]

Who would have thought it would be so difficult to dye a black moustache blue...

[Ab]

I never hear cleaners and maintenance staff complain that they don't get enough recognition from senior management. So why do IT staff do it?

[sidbo]

Originally Posted by Ab

I never hear cleaners and maintenance staff complain that they don't get enough recognition from senior management. So why do IT staff do it?

You've forgotten to log in under your GT account before posting this!

[Golden Teapot]

The IT/Systems folk I work with add tonnes of value and this is recognised and I've never heard them complain.

[Cyberbob]

Originally Posted by Ab

I never hear cleaners and maintenance staff complain that they don't get enough recognition from senior management. So why do IT staff do it?

People still working internal IT support are stuck in 2002.

Source: Was stuck, 2003-2009.

Working for an IT provider/outsourcer is infinitely better than working internally. More variation of experience, more like-minded colleagues, more vendor drinks.

Also, if they're not getting recognized by management, in my experience it's a perception thing. They're too busy bitching about not getting noticed, and not enough time spent trying to provide management with visible business value.

[crocos]

Originally Posted by Ab

I never hear cleaners and maintenance staff complain that they don't get enough recognition from senior management. So why do IT staff do it?

My general perception is the amount of bitching (as opposed to actual considered & helpful feedback) from someone is in inverse proportion to their actual value to the company. There's people at either extreme, and then most people are in the middle.

It's only the extreme cases that really get action - positive or negative - from management.

[Spink]

Originally Posted by Ab

I never hear cleaners and maintenance staff complain that they don't get enough recognition from senior management. So why do IT staff do it?

Because cleaners and maintenance staff are mostly in the situation that bob described as a better situation in that they don't work for the senior management, they work for a cleaning/maintenance provider.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Ab

I never hear cleaners and maintenance staff complain that they don't get enough recognition from senior management. So why do IT staff do it?

Cause everyone does it, you just have some weird ideas about cleaners?

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Ab

I never hear cleaners and maintenance staff complain that they don't get enough recognition from senior management. So why do IT staff do it?

My thought is that IT staff might feel that they ought to be noticed more than cleaners do since IT work involves a certain degree of technical competence. IT workers' possession of ever so slightly specialised knowledge makes them feel that they deserve more recognition than they get. Or something like that.

[Spink]

3 spergposts in a row - aw yiss.

Yes I know one is mine

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Golden Teapot

The IT/Systems folk I work with add tonnes of value and this is recognised and I've never heard them complain.

Hell, so do the cleaners at some places I've worked.

[Nothing]

Never complain or add tonnes of value?

[aR Que]

All i know is that they're paramount to my daily operation. Without them where would all the empty coffee cups go?!!

IT staff might feel that they ought to be noticed more than cleaners do since IT work involves a certain degree of technical competence.

sif, this nigga obviously never used a squeege.

[xor]

Originally Posted by Cyberbob

People still working internal IT support are stuck in 2002.

Source: Was stuck, 2003-2009.

Working for an IT provider/outsourcer is infinitely better than working internally. More variation of experience, more like-minded colleagues, more vendor drinks.

Also, if they're not getting recognized by management, in my experience it's a perception thing. They're too busy bitching about not getting noticed, and not enough time spent trying to provide management with visible business value.

Depends on the business. I've worked for several integrators and several internal businesses and found a mix between both.

I recall Simon saying that the job that IT peeps do is important, just like acc payable/receivable/cleaners/plumbers but the person is not. You are simply another cog.

As for me, as long as I get my coffee I am happy for people to throw shit at me.

[Noodles]

Just got this feedback email from our site:

I will not look up anything else on your site due to nothing
but the Stupid Damn Metric Crap you use on everything! I hate Metric and
the people that use it and Spanish! When I see of it all I think of is
Damn Germans and Japs! Plus I don't know a thing about the Junk and
don't want to know! If any one needs to change it is the rest of the
world not America! Piss on their system and the and those that use it!

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by xor

I recall Simon saying that the job that IT peeps do is important, just like acc payable/receivable/cleaners/plumbers but the person is not. You are simply another cog.

Luckily actual cogs aren't people though eh? Think what a nightmare it would be if your machinery ran on parts the ran perfect while you observed their function, but did all kinds of crazy shit each time you stepped out?

[CCS]

Spanish metric. That is the worst.

[aR Que]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Luckily actual cogs aren't people though eh? Think what a nightmare it would be if your machinery ran on parts the ran perfect while you observed their function, but did all kinds of crazy shit each time you stepped out?

Easily solved by having a redundant number of staff. Guess that's why there's so many people in IT?

yeaaaaAAAAaaa.

[Golden Teapot]

Pay is determined in large party by the scarcity of the skills tendered by the employee.

Some people mistakenly interpret that because they earn more than someone in another role that they are better valued or more important; similarly some of those who earn less than others view themselves as being less valued etc.

In almost every case people who think like this hold junior roles and either work for a small organisation or they work for a corporate and hold a role middle-management down; senior leaders in big organisation almost never think like this - people inept in this manner above rarely make it. In fact most people who think like this are team-member level with no ability to ever go further.

For me, I see no difference in recognition between my role, any role in IT, and with our cleaners. Sure there is a huge difference in pay between all of these roles but this reflects nothing more than all of these roles are needed and there's a varying scarcity of supply of people able and willing to do them.

[aR Que]

what the fuck is this communist bullshit?

[Golden Teapot]

Originally Posted by aR Que

what the fuck is this communist bullshit?

Where?

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Golden Teapot

Pay is determined in large party by the scarcity of the skills tendered by the employee.

Too many people don't get this. I wouldn't be surprised though if people undervalued themselves as often if not more than overvalued. Something I'm sure no employer would ever encourage... /s

[aR Que]

Originally Posted by Golden Teapot

For me, I see no difference in recognition between my role, any role in IT, and with our cleaners.

So, pay, perks and power arn't recognition?



kinda related:
See they're now flailing arms over the increasing devide between rich and poor, where-as a few years ago they said they wanted to keep skilled workers here by reducing the pay gap between NZ & Oz. Something about cake and eating.

[Cyberbob]

I heard somewhere recently that the informal power ladder of a company can be directly measured by the time it takes for someone to respond to an internal email from someone else.

Measure that over the course of a few months and you'll get some interesting results.

You'd end up with a multiplier/ratio, where the bottom is 1, and someone that takes twice as long to respond is a 2. If someone takes three times as long, they get a 3.

I call it; the Care Factor.

[Golden Teapot]

Originally Posted by aR Que

So, pay, perks and power arn't recognition?

They're an indication of the market price of a basket of skills.

Use IT as an example - these roles used to be very well paid, generally they are not any more. Nothing much has changed in terms of value add.

[Golden Teapot]

Originally Posted by aR Que

kinda related:
See they're now flailing arms over the increasing devide between rich and poor, where-as a few years ago they said they wanted to keep skilled workers here by reducing the pay gap between NZ & Oz. Something about cake and eating.

Maybe - I'm paid not too differently to what I could get in Australia and the UK for the same job. But on a living standard corrected basis I'm far better off here.

[aR Que]

^^ i've often looked at this, with copious formulas and multiple tabs on a spreadsheet (thats how you know it's legit). The only fact i'm better off here, is because i'm entrenched, If i had no assets here, except for my mad skillz, i'd be better off in oz, not just because of money, but the work load i'd have to shoulder, individually, would be less. Oh. and the bitches. oh yes. oh yes.

Originally Posted by Golden Teapot

They're an indication of the market price of a basket of skills.

Use IT as an example - these roles used to be very well paid, generally they are not any more. Nothing much has changed in terms of value add.

I think IT is a bad example. IMO, IT is becoming 'undervalued' not because of the massive numbers flooding to it, thanks AIMES! (probably contributing factor) but because you've got jumped up cunts like myself climbing through the ranks, we don't view IT in the same light as the old dudes, except for that tricky shit, we're quite able to manage our own PCs and even a small scale network and as such we don't worship the ground they walk on when they install chrome because IE doesn't fucking work.

Same with cleaners, its not that i don't value the fact they clean the piss off the floor, it's just that i see no mystery in the solution to the problem.

Summary, If you can fool the client with smoke and mirrors, profit.

[Cyberbob]

IT jobs 10-15 years ago were the uncommon, special, perceived as highly skilled (i.e. by the UK Highly Skilled Migrant program), and thus highly paid jobs.

Now that the IT industry has calmed down a bit, passed its honeymoon period (i.e. dot com bubble), and passed its point of saturation about the same time as the GFC (i.e. In 2000-05, every man and his dog was looking at getting into the IT industry due to amazing salaries and opportunity, but in 2006-9, those same people were getting paid peanuts to do what used to be a highly credible job of sys admin for example)

Who's moving to the UK to get an awesome IT job now? No one, that's who.

It's all about the saturation point of skills and opportunity. Supply and Demand, to a point.

The lower levels of helpdesk, etc, are saturated. Level 1-2 helpdesk is a very demanding job, but it's poorly paid, has a pretty high churn rate, and isn't exactly very valued in a company of any decent size. If you're getting paid 50k at this level, you're doing damn well.

Security consultants, network architects, etc on the other hand are still in very high demand, and are still very well paid. They're head hunted, and given the appropriate salaries. Well above 100k if you're with the right company.

IT is not special anymore. The lower bands of IT are no more in demand than the lower bands of any other industry.

One thing to add would be that the potential risks to a company aren't reflected in the pay/value of the position that has direct access to the gaps in those risks.
When I was getting paid squat all as a sys admin in 06-09, I had complete potential visibility of every CxO's mailbox, payroll spreadsheets, the works. If I wore a hat of a darker shade, I could have easily exploited that.

[Lightspeed]

The IT market is a funny thing. I mean, you've just described a sliver of the actual demand for IT skills.

You're absolutely right in that some of what used to be specialised skills are now general skills. Also, technology has improved to the point where what previously required a tech can now be done by admin staff with minimal training.

However IT is vast and ever growing. Any true IT specialist would be progressing with the technology, always being ahead of anyone who isn't in the industry. I mean there probably was a time you could be legit IT without knowing a programming language, now days the ability to at least read code is IMO essential. Thing is, while there is a great volume of IT staff suitable for IT at the turn of the millennia, I think IT specialists that meet 2010 era requirements are still quite rare.

[xor]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

technology has improved to the point where what previously required a tech can now be done by admin staff with minimal training..

I wish that were the case where I worked :/