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Old 17th April 2019, 16:08     #641
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pxpx
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you're saying Labour purposely created a shitty policy (KiwiBuild) as a bribe to get into power, knowing that they had this in the back pocket but just the needed time/opportunity to get it going?

Its the equivalent of falling flat on your face, getting up and saying "oh, I meant to do that, part of the plan, you see".

Just replace 'KiwiBuild' with 'CGT' and sit back and wait. You'll see.
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Old 17th April 2019, 16:28     #642
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blynk
It can't fully be Winston though.


Michael Cullen would like a word with you.
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Old 17th April 2019, 20:38     #643
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Oh god it’s Gen Y

If at first you don’t succeed, meh I didn’t really care anyway, never gonna try again, in fact I didn't even try this time

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4Vq4-xVUAYiG54?format=jpg
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Old 18th April 2019, 16:37     #644
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
Just replace 'KiwiBuild' with 'CGT' and sit back and wait. You'll see.
You called it:

Signs Labour didn't intend to implement capital gains tax
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Old 18th April 2019, 16:57     #645
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
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Old 20th April 2019, 05:13     #646
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 


no shit, Grant Robertson in Opposition
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Old 20th April 2019, 08:29     #647
crocos
 
LOL, Labour.
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Old 21st April 2019, 15:06     #648
Lightspeed
 
I am actually curious how Labour would pass a law enabling CGT if it decided that was what it was going to do?

I thought parliament got to vote on law changes?

Are we laughing at Labour because they wanted to do things if they got the votes, but they didn't, so lolz?
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Old 21st April 2019, 17:25     #649
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
The way Labour has handled this just reeks of Lightspeed's realpolitik theory. Say what you have to in order to win the election, once you're in all bets are off.

CGT was dangled in front of the electorate as a buzzword ("fairness!") but once Labour was actually in government, meh, forget it. It was a theoretical policy to get Labour elected, not a real policy for Labour to implement.
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Old 21st April 2019, 17:36     #650
Lightspeed
 
It was a nice dream, only to be realised in the case the "I always vote blue" crowd didn't vote blue.

It's not a case of avoiding burning political capital, is it? Labour holds 46 seats, National holds 55 seats. Labour doesn't get everything it wants.

It seems everyone's all "coalition government" when things move forward and "Labour government" when things don't work out.
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Old 21st April 2019, 17:47     #651
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Are you kidding? In the weeks after Christchurch Jacinda had a blank cheque on policy. She's had more capital to burn than any leader in living memory. If she had gone on TV and tearfully demanded a CGT from Parliament and denounced anyone who stood against her as being on the side of the inequity and division that leads to mass shootings, nobody would have dared oppose her (ok maybe Seymour just on principle). That she didn't means that she didn't think a CGT was worth spending that capital.

Never again will she have the ability to pass legislation by sheer personal popularity as she's had in the past month. And she has deliberately chosen not to use it to get a CGT law passed. Fuck knows what she's saving it for, because Christchurch is already a memory and soon the pictures of tearful Jacinda in a scarf will be ancient history. But for a month or so Jacinda has had the ability to pass anything she wants.
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Old 21st April 2019, 17:56     #652
Lightspeed
 
That's not true at all. We know this because changing gun laws didn't come without cost. Plenty of people wailing about the end of democracy. If changing gun laws immediately after 50 people are shot dead comes at a cost, there's no way something abstract like a CGT can be forced through.

Ardern used the capital she had for the purpose it was generated. I get how National supporters might see this as incompetency.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 21st April 2019 at 17:57.
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Old 21st April 2019, 18:06     #653
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Well yeah, people moaned about democracy or some shit but no-one in Parliament was going to oppose her legislation because after Chch she was unopposable. The law passed 119-1. If she'd burned some popularity on CGT it would have passed, end of story. But she just didn't care about it.
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Old 21st April 2019, 18:07     #654
Lightspeed
 
That's a story and nothing more. I really don't understand why you're telling it.

But then again you're still surprised the state NZ is in. You've got some serious blinkers on.
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Old 21st April 2019, 18:14     #655
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
If CGT had been anything other than a buzzword to get elected, Jacinda would have a) burned capital to get it passed, and b) NOT said "we give up, Labour won't implement a CGT while I'm leader". If it were actually a policy Labour cared about she would have said "we're all in on CGT because fairness, and while our current coalition partner rules it out the CGT will be back on the table the moment we have the numbers".
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Old 21st April 2019, 18:25     #656
Lightspeed
 
a) is impossible, Labour had nothing to force NZF to vote for a CGT. Any suggestion otherwise completely lacks credibility. b) My understanding was Labour wasn't ruling out a CGT, as opposed to promising one. Somehow that meant to you that Labour must pass a CGT? I'm sceptical. In fact I'm pretty sure you're spinning shit. Cause Labour, lolz.
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Old 21st April 2019, 18:31     #657
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
If she'd burned some popularity on CGT it would have passed, end of story. But she just didn't care about it.
Fucking MMP, how does that work? Labour needed NZF support but their support would mean the end of their party, so Labour couldn't do it. Also Labour set out previously that any tax changes would be mandated at the next election. So even if they got enough support it still would have been a risky move going into an election. And looking at how NZ has gone downhill it probably isn't worth that risk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
If it were actually a policy Labour cared about she would have said "we're all in on CGT because fairness, and while our current coalition partner rules it out the CGT will be back on the table the moment we have the numbers".
That's somewhat fair. I guess it was one from the JK playbook where he ruled out raising the superannuation age. From that point it could never be used to scare away the voters needed to get (other) shit done.
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Last edited by fixed_truth : 21st April 2019 at 18:35.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 11:22     #658
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/23...blessed-lives/
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Old 23rd April 2019, 12:57     #659
Lightspeed
 
My only comfort is that most of them will live to see shit fall apart.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 13:12     #660
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Oh it's a certainty. They'll live a loooong time, with the best lifestyles and healthcare and medical treatment and surgery and transplants that taxes can buy. They'll be submitting postal votes in support of cuts to education to pay for hikes to superannuation from their beach houses for ever.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 13:23     #661
Nich
 
Image of Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern to grace Melbourne street silo
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/polit...reet-silo.html
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Old 23rd April 2019, 13:45     #662
BoyWonder
 
I don't think that mural will pass the citizenship test.
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Old 24th April 2019, 12:52     #663
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Oh it's a certainty. They'll live a loooong time, with the best lifestyles and healthcare and medical treatment and surgery and transplants that taxes can buy. They'll be submitting postal votes in support of cuts to education to pay for hikes to superannuation from their beach houses for ever.
For a minority. We're not going to be able to support them all to such a standard for any length of time.
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Old 24th April 2019, 13:09     #664
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
As if we have any choice in the matter. Governments decide how much support retirees get and for how long, and retirees choose the government.
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Old 24th April 2019, 14:20     #665
Lightspeed
 
Well, voting isn't the only way to participate in a democracy. If it gets bad enough, and it surely will, people aren't gonna sit at home and suffer.
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Old 24th April 2019, 15:08     #666
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Well, voting isn't the only way to participate in a democracy.
Of course it is. That's how representative democracy works. The ONLY time that a citizen gets to participate in the democratic process is at the moment of voting.
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Old 24th April 2019, 15:26     #667
Lightspeed
 
Come on, be serious. Democratic governments are constantly adjusting their policies and actions based on responses to their policies and actions. Leaders step down, elections are called, due to events that aren't directly related to voting. Donors for one hold huge sway over the decisions a government might make. If the streets are filled with people preventing normal economic activity, the government is going to be compelled to respond.

Voters can be robbed of their power too, where forces work to confuse and befuddle, or to stack the deck so that whichever way people vote an outcome is preordained.

And then there's violence. Unless you think the only time Oswald got to participate in his democracy was when he voted.
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Old 24th April 2019, 15:45     #668
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Come on, be serious. Democratic governments are constantly adjusting their policies and actions based on responses to their policies and actions. Leaders step down, elections are called, due to events that aren't directly related to voting.
No, those things happen when governments get scared over how people are going to vote. At election time.
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Old 24th April 2019, 23:00     #669
Lightspeed
 
Rolling eyes

So no money in politics? No politicians doing things with the expectation they'll get away without catching voters attention? The only way to influence politicians is on voting day?

You need to lay off the sauce bro.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 24th April 2019 at 23:01.
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Old 24th April 2019, 23:25     #670
Lightspeed
 
Here's a scenario. Government does something that pisses a lot of people off. People get on the street and march in numbers. Government changes behaviour.

No one has voted, the government has changed its behaviour. Yes, it's because come voting time they want these people who are willing to march to vote for them. But the government changed its behaviour without a vote taking place.

Another scenario. Foreign interest wants some change that will benefit them significantly, but won't capture the interest of voters. Promises are made for cushy jobs and residency in Hawaii post-political career. The change is made. The government has changed its behaviour without a vote taking place.

Am I crazy? Is this not something we see?

Yes, election time is the final word on who gets to run the government. But there's no 1:1 relationship between how people vote and what the government does.

If I've got this so wrong, help me out, I'm stumped.
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Old 25th April 2019, 09:14     #671
fixed_truth
 
National changed their position quite often mid term. Some call it flip flop, some pragmatic and responding to public sentiment.
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Old 25th April 2019, 13:57     #672
Lightspeed
 
I'm guessing Ab's point is that regardless how bad things get on the street, the boomers will still vote the same from their comfortable remote locations and anything else is meaningless. I do get that.

And perhaps using that vote they transition us away from a free democracy to something where the rights to speech and protest are taken away, so any disruptive elements can be suppressed and forced to work for the boomers. Maybe.

But I think until then we can still make politicians think twice about who they make decisions in favour of, knowing that if they make it too difficult for minority groups they're going to deal with significant disruption.

Of course, this assumes that the boomers maintain the strongest voting bloc. Given the ongoing population boom amongst Pacific Islanders, that may not last.
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Old 26th April 2019, 08:41     #673
pxpx
 
looking forward to jacinda 'fixing' the internet with macron et al

*gets popcorn*
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Old 30th April 2019, 13:54     #674
Lightspeed
 
Former minister Meka Whaitiri continues to deny assault

This is a rat that just won't die.

I think Labour are one up on National in that they oppose such behaviour. National seemed much more effective in getting away with bullying.

But if Whaitiri didn't do what was alleged, she sucks at reading the circumstances and keeping the support of her staff. She should just be keeping her head down, show some contrition for getting it wrong.
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Old 9th May 2019, 13:28     #675
pxpx
 
it's the gift that keeps on taking
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...g-100000-homes
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Old 9th May 2019, 14:08     #676
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
We will neither confirm nor deny that we ever committed to a particular number of houses within a certain timeframe
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Old 10th May 2019, 21:33     #677
Lightspeed
 
Labour candidate Naisi Chen outraged to be cited in Anne-Marie Brady's China paper

The truth hurts sometimes.

Interesting how a National MP jumped to her defence. Without having read the paper.
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Old 13th May 2019, 17:43     #678
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Interesting post by David Farrar after a meeting at InternetNZ on dealing with extremist online content, specifically regarding the PM's attendance and contribution:

https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2019/05/w...f_the_day.html
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Old 13th May 2019, 23:44     #679
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
I just couldn't be bothered reading all the comments, but they really seem to have missed the point of what DPF was saying.
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Old 14th May 2019, 00:33     #680
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
the comments at that site are a cesspit, just don't.
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