Mr Haden - don't Bogart that stuff...

[StN]

What is he smoking?

Allegations that the Crusaders have a "No more than 3 darkies" policy??

And that this has led them to be a champion team?

What is he really saying - that a team that restricts itself to less than the full pool of available talent is better? Or that teams that have a large number of Polynesians are impeded? To me, that is just as offensive.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/s...-ceiling-claim

[fixed_truth]

Shit yeah that's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard in a while - and sometimes I listen to radio live.



In other rugby news, c'mon Jason Rutledge to get the call up on Sunday!

[Deff]

Andy Haden, what a fuck knob.

[Rince]

he said it on Deaker on Sport.... ffs, I'm surprised anyone was watching....

[badassmofo]

The Hurricanes are doing the reverse. THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM IN NZ RUGBY.

[Ab]

Initial reactions:

a) Andy Haden is very good at getting Andy Haden in the news. He's an agent/PR guy and this is good business. So, meh.

b) Wouldn't surprise me if he's right. The Crusaders over the years have managed to win lots of titles and have also managed to avoid many of the - how can I put this tactfully - POLYNESIAN BRAIN EXPLOSIONS than have lost other teams points, games, and finals spots. Whether or not this is the result of an actual management policy is the sort of thing that no-one will ever admit, so meh.

[badassmofo]

To be fair, it's something that comes up in coversation with me and my buddies when discussing strengths and weakness with teams like the crusaders, blues, and the warriors. But these kind of points work around some pretty big stereotypes.

[StN]

Next there will be a claim that Ali Williams was sent down here as a mole!

I'm pretty sure the colour of your school tie has a lot more to do with it - and the catchment area including Nelson Bays not being particularly ethnic.

[CCS]

Christchurchers are racial, lol!

Originally Posted by Ab

b) Wouldn't surprise me if he's right. The Crusaders over the years have managed to win lots of titles and have also managed to avoid many of the - how can I put this tactfully - POLYNESIAN BRAIN EXPLOSIONS than have lost other teams points, games, and finals spots. Whether or not this is the result of an actual management policy is the sort of thing that no-one will ever admit, so meh.

I was listening to Michael Laws on the radio on the way to work (hey, there was no good music on) and some islander fella who coaches rugby but who didn't want to disclose his name said that polynesians "don't have the mental capacity" to cope with the pressure situations. He reckoned that it was pretty clear that you get the white guys for the parts where you need brains and polys when you need brawn.

Fair enough I guess. But this idea of an actual limit on how many coconuts they'll have in their team? Hmmm, right.

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by Ab

a) Andy Haden is very good at getting Andy Haden in the news. He's an agent/PR guy and this is good business. So, meh.

Fabricating racism is 'good business'? This ain't aussie we're talking about.

Originally Posted by Ab

Wouldn't surprise me if he's right.

Umm it's not hard to look at the players in the Crusaders squads to show he's full of shit.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news...ectid=10648090

And this is only some of them. In this years squad I can also think Kahn Fotuali’i, Robert Fruen Ti’i Paulo and Jonathan Poff.

[BoyWonder]

Everyone's a little bit racist sometimes...

doesn't mean we go out and commit hate crimes.

[Deff]

If this dickhead Haden is left as ASSbassador of the world cup, fuck me what a joke. Retards like this washed up has been make me so fucking mad.

[xor]

Let them be racist, they're from Christchurch

[CCS]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

Umm it's not hard to look at the players in the Crusaders squads to show he's full of shit.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news...ectid=10648090

And this is only some of them. In this years squad I can also think Kahn Fotuali’i, Robert Fruen Ti’i Paulo and Jonathan Poff.

It's my understanding that the 3 darkies rule only applies to coco... polynesians. So going by that team list, the rule generally holds true with the exception of 2004 when they had an extra poly who was probably overstaying on the team.

[fixed_truth]

A Fairfax analysis of New Zealand's five Super Rugby franchises reveals that the Blues have 19 Pacific Islanders and one Maori in their ranks, the Chiefs nine Islanders and five Maori, the Hurricanes seven Islanders and four Maori and the Highlanders have four Islanders and one Maori.

The Crusaders have three Pacific Islanders and four Maori players in their current squad. In past seasons, they have had higher numbers but most years have almost always had more players than the quota number claimed by Haden.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/s...-ceiling-claim

[Ab]

Come on guys, let's be honest. We all know there's a "Polynesian style" of rugby - freestyle, improvisational, huge hits, running with ball in hand, high-risk plays that look amazing when they pay off - in the same way that we know there's an "English style" of rugby that emphasises a slow forward grind, tactical kicking, scrum-oriented set pieces, playing the percentages, etc. This isn't a secret. It's why we love watching Fijian sevens teams and why watching Wilko kick England to glory bored us to tears.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if there's a coaching policy at Crusaders HQ to pick players who will perform within a more structured team style - players who will choose safe options in pressure situations* and who will work as part of the overall team strategy. That such players tend to be Mainland pakehas and Maoris more often than guys who grew up playing in the Islands seems to be a pretty noncontroversial claim.

That there might be an actual selection policy at the country's most strategically conservative and by far most successful Super rugby franchise limiting the number of players who might tend towards high-risk freestyling improvisational rugby shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.



* YES YES FUCKING CALEB RALPH I GET IT

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by Ab

That there might be an actual selection policy at the country's most strategically conservative and by far most successful Super rugby franchise limiting the number of players who might tend towards high-risk freestyling improvisational rugby shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

There's nothing wrong with this. It's selecting a player based on their performance and skills. A stereotypical immigrant Polynesian player might not get selected because he doesn't have the skills that they are after. But like any player not selected, the ethnicity of the player is NOT a factor in their non-selection.

Noting that this selection policy may be one of many factors (others including family ties in area, ethnic & culture make-up of area etc - eg Otago & Southland rugby also have less Polynesian players than the North Island) that contribute to there being statistically fewer 'stereotypical' Polynesian players in the team - is A LOT different than claiming that there is a selection policy based on ethnicity ie "Three darkies... no more".

[Ab]

Is there any difference between a rule of "no more than three freestyle improvisational players" and one of "no more than three Pacific Island players"?

The first seems eminently sensible, the second racist, but is there any substantive difference between the two?

[fixed_truth]

It doesn't require a substantive difference between the two for one of the systems to be racist.

One selection process is based on the ugly generalisation that being a Pacific Islander is a primary determinant of the way you play rugby, and one is based on the skills of a player.

I think it's ridiculous to think that a players ethnicity would even be mentioned when being considered for the squad. Or that if a PI player with the skills they are looking for became available, he would be turned down if they already had three PI's in the squad.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

I think it's ridiculous to think that ... if a PI player with the skills they are looking for became available, he would be turned down if they already had three PI's in the squad.

Agreed.

[_Incubus_]

TBH I wouldnt be surprised if this was the case, if you look at the Blues performance in years gone by they were at their peak when they had significantly more whities in the team. I think we have managed to prove that free flowing running rugby is not good enough to win world cup titles. Our last 5 attempts at a world cup have demonstrated this point. 'Boring' structured rugby has been proven to win world cups..SA 3 years ago? England before that were clearly not the best team in the cup but the game plan they had was.

[leadinjector]

way too much PC in this thread. ive worked with a lot of poly rugby and league players and its not like its a secret- theyre there to fling the ball wide, smash formations and sprint up the outside, the whities are there to set that shit up. the only people who even think this is a racist thing are those middle aged honkies who just love to get offended on behalf of other people.

really we are just talking about the strengths that various rugby cultures bring to the game, and what they bring is affected by various things including the physical nature of the people involved. anyone who says every race is exactly the same hasnt seen some of the sub 18yo monsters in the local auckland first 15 high school teams

[Deff]

Originally Posted by leadinjector

way too much PC in this thread. ive worked with a lot of poly rugby and league players and its not like its a secret- theyre there to fling the ball wide, smash formations and sprint up the outside, the whities are there to set that shit up. the only people who even think this is a racist thing are those middle aged honkies who just love to get offended on behalf of other people.

really we are just talking about the strengths that various rugby cultures bring to the game, and what they bring is affected by various things including the physical nature of the people involved. anyone who says every race is exactly the same hasnt seen some of the sub 18yo monsters in the local auckland first 15 high school teams

Noone is saying it's not true or is true. I pretty much agree with what you are saying BUT!!!!!

The point is, Haden is a fuckknob and in no way should be associated with the World Cup! You don't just come out and open your retarded ass mouth and blurt any old shit out and expect to be patted on the back for it.

[xor]

I remember Murray Deaker talking about how Canterbury rugby has more razzle dazzle than the northern provinces because there are a lot more whiteys down there so they can play a more open game because Polys and Maori physically develop a lot younger than white boys.

[fixed_truth]

Lead that's exactly the ignorant attitude I would expect from someone without an education.

I was happy to see Graham Henry was on Campbell Live last night passionately speaking out against the discussion Hayden's comments have provoked.
http://www.3news.co.nz/Graham-Henry-...2/Default.aspx

every Polynesian kid growing up & dreaming of being an All Black now know that some kiwi's will always regard them as darkies & that their contribution is somehow less valuable because of their race

Henry was asked if there was any truth in the stereotype that Polynesian rugby players were not as intelligent or were not as capable when it came to decision-making.
I think it's absolute rubbish personally. What Polynesian players have done, they've advanced the ability of the All Blacks and we're very lucky to have them. Some of the people making the remarks need to actually think about what they're saying because I don't think the brain's been connected to be quite frank..

[leadinjector]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

Lead that's exactly the ignorant attitude I would expect from someone without an education.

I was happy to see Graham Henry was on Campbell Live last night passionately speaking out against the discussion Hayden's comments have provoked.
http://www.3news.co.nz/Graham-Henry-...2/Default.aspx

fyi, i agree hes a fucknob and that hes just a publicity mongerer. and also, can you point out where i said they should be less valued? so they have different strengths due to upbringing, physical attributes and culture. so what? YOURE the one whos saying thats a bad thing. honkies are bought up imo to play a more cerebral game simply because they cannot compete with the guys being bought over from the islands in a physical match. you can scream RACIST as much as you want, but it has no bearing on the discussion that cheese knob has created. exactly the kind of ignorant attitude i expect from.. well, people like you.

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by leadinjector

honkies are bought up imo to play a more cerebral game simply because they cannot compete with the guys being bought over from the islands in a physical match.

My problem is that this assumes that all PI's are huge and all European & Maori players are smaller. In reality there is no such clear distinction based on ethnicity.

Also Junior rugby has weight restrictions designed to stop physically mature boys hurting smaller opponents and making the match an uneven contest. The closer to adult age players get the more differences disappear. Players of different ethnicity's are not bought up to play certain roles. Graham Henry confirms this stating that there's no such fixed roles in top rugby and a huge amount of PI players play a cerebral games despite not being 'honkies'.

Originally Posted by leadinjector

but it has no bearing on the discussion that cheese knob has created.

Your erroneous broad statement that there are race based (cerebral & non-cerebral) roles in rugby is relevant to the discussion imo.

The whole uproar in the discussion came from people stating that PI's can't play a cerebral role because they are less intelligent. This PI's are aggressive and not as intelligent line of argument is used to justify other racist generalisations eg 'PI's are are better suited to labouring than say a lawyer etc.

[leadinjector]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

My problem is that this assumes that all PI's are huge and all European & Maori players are smaller. In reality there is no such clear distinction based on ethnicity.

so you actually dont think that race has any bearing on how fast kids mature, despite evidence to the contrary? you let your "MUST BE PC" blinkers blind you that much. ok dude, whatever. of course its not a blanket rule. but i dont assume you to be thick enough to think that (if you are, my apologies)

Also Junior rugby has weight restrictions designed to stop physically mature boys hurting smaller opponents and making the match an uneven contest. The closer to adult age players get the more differences disappear.

this is a different discussion probably, but first of all 85kg is quite a fucking lot for a high school kid, and second of all there is so much bullshit that goes on with those weigh ins that it makes the end result almost meaningless.

of course, although id say islanders tend to have a better genetic build for sports like rugby and league even as adults, you still get your share of big fast honkies too. but the fairly massive over representation of islanders in top level play suggests that it isn't an even spread.

Players of different ethnicity's are not bought up to play certain roles.

oh and thats a fact is it? how do you know that btw? know many local coaches and how they operate?

every nation, as has been stated, tends to have its own methods when approaching the game. all the island nations play in a similar hard and fast, no room for error way. poms play in a more "traditional" i guess grinding manner. replace ethnicity with culture and role with style if it makes you feel better.

Graham Henry confirms this stating that there's no such fixed roles in top rugby and a huge amount of PI players play a cerebral games despite not being 'honkies'.


Your erroneous broad statement that there are race based (cerebral & non-cerebral) roles in rugby is relevant to the discussion imo.

The whole uproar in the discussion came from people stating that PI's can't play a cerebral role because they are less intelligent. This PI's are aggressive and not as intelligent line of argument is used to justify other racist generalisations eg 'PI's are are better suited to labouring than say a lawyer etc.

like i just said, can you please point out where i said islanders are thick? you keep bringing that up, not me. i know some thick islanders and i know some smart islanders, part of the reason i think Haden is a dick cheese is because he thinks stupidity is the reason why polys tend to play the way they do. id say its more to do with the culture of both the game and the players.

think about this- people tend to emulate and admire others who are similar, but more skilled/talented/richer/etc than themselves. do you think most young island boys getting into either code are gonna want to be richie mccaw, or Jerry Collins? Manu Vatuvei or Michael Luck? what kind of play style are they going to want to adopt, and what kind of play style do you think the culture around them fosters?

my big question of course is why the fuck does it even matter, the crusaders win because their development programme is world class and most other super 14 teams are playing catch up. it wouldnt matter if everyone in their team was called Dirk Dickinson or Fei'a Folau. probably mostly honkies cos its too fucking cold down there for islanders anyway.

[mr selfdestruct]

I heard this on Deaker's show. It was pretty funny, Deaker goes, "Thanks Andy, I know exactly what the full hour of my show will be about next week!" lol!

[Fitz]

Companies hire who they want to regardless of the "you must not discriminate" mandate forced on society, whether it's because they are male/female/black/white/short/tall/fat/thin/ugly/pretty the employer makes the choice. Just so happens someone has come out and said it in public, what surprises me most is that people seem genuinely surprised!
If this policy is real and it works I think they should roll it out for the All Blacks squad and rename to the "Less Blacks".

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by leadinjector

of course its not a blanket rule

If it's not a blanket rule then don't make blanket statements like Islanders play like this and honkies play like this. If you had of said 'some kids with PI heritage that physically mature faster than European kids might be bigger and so are suited to certain roles, though by the time they reach adult grades any physicality is irrelevant - then I would have no problem with that.

Originally Posted by leadinjector

of course, although id say islanders tend to have a better genetic build for sports like rugby and league even as adults, you still get your share of big fast honkies too. but the fairly massive over representation of islanders in top level play suggests that it isn't an even spread.

This is my point of disagreement. The Pacific Islands are relatively diverse and you couldn't call them a distinct population group with distinct biological characteristic. And even if they were

the fact that there are physical differences between human groups does not mean that such differences can be reduced to racial distinctions, nor that such differences need have a meaningful consequence in human endeavour, whether that be sport or IQ tests.

http://www.kenanmalik.com/essays/olympics.html

Originally Posted by leadinjector

every nation, as has been stated, tends to have its own methods when approaching the game. all the island nations play in a similar hard and fast, no room for error way. poms play in a more "traditional" i guess grinding manner. replace ethnicity with culture and role with style if it makes you feel better.

Well culture is a better word as it doesn't require a genetic factor. Though we are talking about New Zealanders, playing age-group rugby in NZ and up to higher NZ rugby teams.

Originally Posted by leadinjector

think about this- people tend to emulate and admire others who are similar, but more skilled/talented/richer/etc than themselves. do you think most young island boys getting into either code are gonna want to be richie mccaw, or Jerry Collins? Manu Vatuvei or Michael Luck? what kind of play style are they going to want to adopt, and what kind of play style do you think the culture around them fosters?

I agree that youngsters emulate role models, though why not Mils, Siviatu, Umanga, Soilioalo (sp)? - As Henry pointed out a lot of PI players aren't limited to non-cerebral roles so it's important not to put the message to young PI's that they can't be.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

I agree that youngsters emulate role models, though why not Mils, Siviatu, Umanga, Soilioalo (sp)?

Those cheeky darky names, so hard to spell!

On the subject of role models, Sivivatu and So'oialo are exactly the sort of players that the hypothetical Crusaders selection policy is designed to weed out. Those two players are walking case studies of POLYNESIAN BRAIN EXPLOSION SYNDROME.

[Lightspeed]

Man, this guy is a fuckin' GENIOUS!
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3901...r-attack-again

[a-tech]

[leadinjector]

while i agree hes an idiot in the case of that girl with robin brooke- if you go out, meet a famous rugby player, get so drunk you pass out, and wind up at home with him- maybe you shouldnt be such a FUCKING MORON.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uscm...eature=related

[Saladin]

Originally Posted by leadinjector

if you go out, meet a famous rugby player, get so drunk you pass out, and wind up at home with him- maybe you shouldnt be such a FUCKING MORON.

Does this apply to men to?

[CCS]

Do you mean if a man goes out to score with a rugby player, gets drunk and ends up in bed with him? Yeah I think it applies there...



By score I mean 'score an autograph'.

[ChaosWulf]

Shit that they announced he's been sacked on the news before they told him personally.

[Lightspeed]

Yeah, I bet he's having a real fun day. What a bloody muppet.

[madmaxii]

Sacked for speaking the truth. Fuck, we've become so PC. Groupies have been around for millenniums.

But - in the past they didn't pipe up for the money - it was just bragging rights.

Sluts!