Like we got ourselves a convoy

[blynk]

Originally Posted by _indigo1

he is not entitled to an explanation

I totally disagree with this statement.
They are entitled to an explanation of why something is happening, and people deserve. Whether they listen is a different matter.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Bill of Rights says...

The Bill of Rights Act is an Act of Parliament, which means that it can be overridden by other Acts of Parliament, like the Health Act, which says the government can make whatever mandates it likes in the event of a public health emergency.

These details are important and you have to understand them to grasp how and when the government can tell you what you can and can't do.

[DrTiTus]

The fact none of you can give me a good reason why I shouldn't be allowed to go to a restaurant, unvaccinated, says everything. You're talking about who the protesters were, or appealing to "that's just the way it is" arguments.

There is good no reason, and I think you know it, but to say it out loud would be embarrassing.

The fact that on a particular date "sometime in the future" it will all change and suddenly I'm "safe" to be there again - despite Omicron or whatever likely to remain and circulate forever - is further testament to the stupidity of these rules.

It's like how on one day you can have 50 people, then the next day you can have 100. Why 50? Why not 51? Why not 60? First masks were not effective, then they were, then they weren't again, and then only N95 is effective, but I can still wear my shitty one without problems. That's clearly nonsense, too.

It's all made up shit. You guys just eat da poopoo.

[_indigo1]

Damnit!
I thought when we got to 5 pages, the 'Last Page' link would appear > : (

[Ab]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

The fact none of you can give me a good reason why I shouldn't be allowed to go to a restaurant, unvaccinated, says everything.

I gave you two: private premises can bar whomever they want, and the Health Act says the government can place restrictions on people when there's a public health emergency.

As I observed in the COVID thread, this really seems like a religious matter for you. When you're presented with relevant info some part of your brain just seems to be censoring it out.

[_indigo1]

I wonder what percentage of the occupation population even voted. Plenty seemed like the kind that would abstain.

[Cyberbob]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

The fact none of you can give me a good reason why I shouldn't be allowed to go to a restaurant, unvaccinated, says everything.

We've given you plenty of reasons. But you don't think they're good enough.

What evidence would you need to make you change your current stance on that?

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by Ab

I gave you two: private premises can bar whomever they want, and the Health Act says the government can place restrictions on people when there's a public health emergency.

As I observed in the COVID thread, this really seems like a religious matter for you. When you're presented with relevant info some part of your brain just seems to be censoring it out.

I'm actually trying to "trust the science", not "do as I'm told". I'm well aware of the law, and I know that they passed a law. This is the protest thread Ab. It was a protest to try and get the law changed because it's unreasonable.

If you can't give me reasons, beyond legal reasons, why today I am unsafe in a restaurant, but in x week's time I will be, while vaccinated people CAN go to a restaurant, even though they are still getting/spreading COVID then I can only assume there isn't a good reason, and it's just a punishment for not complying. Which, if that's the case, say so. If there is good science behind it, tell me what it is. And please don't use hospitalisation rates of old sick people, because that argument does my head in when it doesn't apply to me.

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by Cyberbob

What evidence would you need to make you change your current stance on that?

Tell me if it's for my benefit, or for other people's benefit.

If it's for my benefit, show me how my absolute risk is significantly different to a vaccinated person and how big that absolute risk is. Or how reducing the population in restaurants by stopping 5% of the not-at-risk population from coming in will save the hospitals from being overloaded.

If it's for other people's benefit, explain how my vaccination status significantly affects my ability to spread this disease.

[Ab]

Then the definition of "good reason" exists only in your head. Your logic is

I'll follow the reasons if they're good reasons
Good reasons are the ones that I want to follow
.

[DrTiTus]

I'm 40 years old, weigh 83kg (not obese), no underlying conditions, haven't been to a doctor in 22 years, and I also go to a supermarket where I am exposed to the same people who will be in the restaurant and wear a mask that doesn't work. (If you need that information)

[wazza]

hahaha, not obese. nigga, if you said 183kg and followed it up with "not obese", we got problems. 83kg, sheittt.

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Bill of Rights says you can't discriminate (including medical condition):

Except when it says you can.

[Know me.]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Tell me if it's for my benefit, or for other people's benefit.

If it's for my benefit, show me how my absolute risk is significantly different to a vaccinated person and how big that absolute risk is. Or how reducing the population in restaurants by stopping 5% of the not-at-risk population from coming in will save the hospitals from being overloaded.

If it's for other people's benefit, explain how my vaccination status significantly affects my ability to spread this disease.

The question you need to ask is what would have happened in the last two years if no one was vaccinated.

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by Know me.

The question you need to ask is what would have happened in the last two years if no one was vaccinated.

That's a completely different story. I'm not suggesting "COVID IS A LIE!" or "Everything Jacinda did is ass backwards, we should have been open all the time!". I was on her side all the way until the mandates. I think we had a good response, and the results speak for themselves. The border being closed really helped - and lockdown appears to have worked, with maybe Aucklanders trapped for a bit too long, but meh. Even vaccinating the old people I am 100% behind. I am not arguing it doesn't work for them. It seems to. I accept that.

The virus mutated, so our rules should have mutated too. There are some people who have been told that they shouldn't be vaccinated again for health reasons or reactions, and they are still banned from restaurants and haircuts. They're being punished for their health conditions, and can't do anything about it. It's not all about MY freedom - it's equality. We're an egalitarian society - or we used to be before this. It's worth hanging on to that, I think it's a good thing.

As fixed_truth pointed out: demonstrably justified are the words I'm looking for. So while Lightspeed sits there thinking he's clever eating his own earwax and talking about marbles, it's actually the legal term I was looking for. Thanks f_t.

For instance, I can work with people all day, unvaxed: This is fine
Go to a work function, same people, hire a venue: Sorry, this BUILDING requires a vax pass

I go to give blood in Cambridge: This BUILDING requires a vax pass.
Give blood in Marton: Welcome, when was your last donation?

Hang out with locals in the supermarket: All G
Hang out with locals in a restaurant: Sorry, you need to be vaccinated to be near these same people, we know it doesn't make sense, it's just Govt policy.

I think this demonstrates that the rules are inconsistent/illogical and therefore do not justify the rules because the nature of the virus is not dependent on the building you're in. Especially given the spread of the virus among the vaccinated anyway, there really is no difference between us.

Sorry, I'll stop going on about it. Call it a post-protest rant. If you can't see it by now, you'll never see it. I just hope you recognize stupid rules when they are proposed next time, so that it doesn't have to divide society and cause everyone to spit venom for making a different choice.

Thanks for listening, thanks for replying, I just wish more people could see it and admit it instead of defending them as though Government is always right. It's not all bad, I met a cute vaccinated but anti-mandate girl, so at least I know she's got a brain. It's a good IQ test.

[Native]

Originally Posted by sidbo

My name is sidbo, and I have a tiny penis.

So much bliss.

[MadMax]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

I'm 40 years old, weigh 83kg (not obese), no underlying conditions, haven't been to a doctor in 22 years, and I also go to a supermarket where I am exposed to the same people who will be in the restaurant and wear a mask that doesn't work. (If you need that information)

By BMI, if you're under 165cm tall then you'd be "obese". ~183cm+ is "healthy" for that weight

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by MadMax

By BMI, if you're under 165cm tall then you'd be "obese". ~183cm+ is "healthy" for that weight

I'm like 179 cm. I probably still could lose a couple of kg, but COVID isn't taking me out over 3kg. That's just a run, and a good dump.

What do you weigh? You said something about guessing in the other thread about your heart, but I never saw an answer, or did I miss it? Post here or there if you wanna keep it on-topic.

[StN]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

There are some people who have been told that they shouldn't be vaccinated again for health reasons or reactions, and they are still banned from restaurants and haircuts. They're being punished for their health conditions, and can't do anything about it.

Ok - I'll bite. You speak the bullshit.

If someone has a legitimate medical reason for not being able to be vaccinated, they can still get a vaccine pass. The vaccine pass does not imply the carrier is vaccinated, but that they have complied with the systemic requirements.

Of course, I should include citations to back up my argument.

Covid response guidelines.

Temporary medical exemption process
In rare medical situations, some people may be able to apply for a temporary medical exemption from being vaccinated against COVID-19. This will allow them to get a domestic vaccination status certificate (My Vaccine Pass).

You will need to talk to your usual medical practitioner or nurse practitioner about whether or not you meet the criteria for an exemption.

There are very few people that are unable to get a vaccine due to medical grounds and exemptions should be limited to situations where a suitable alternative COVID-19 vaccine is not readily available for the individual.

Criteria for Temporary COVID-19 Vaccine Medical Exemptions

If you meet the criteria, your usual medical practitioner or nurse practitioner will apply on your behalf. Applications can only be made by medical or nurse practitioners.

Your application will go through a panel review process. If the application is granted a copy of the exemption will be provided in a letter or email.

A medical exemption is only valid for up to six months.

My Vaccine Pass
If you’re given a temporary medical exemption, you will see a record of this in My Covid Record and you will be able to request your pass from Saturday 4 December. You will still be able to access essential services until you’re able to download your pass.

When your pass is scanned at venues your exemption status will not be disclosed to the business. You will be able to gain access like everyone else.

Yes, I know it's a temporary exemption - but that's the point, its an evolving process and this measure is in place to enable freedoms until additional health measures (ie alternate vaccines) are available.

Disclaimer - I did my research using the Internet, so yeah...

[DrTiTus]

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by StN

but that they have complied

Don't make my argument for me.

Is exclusion necessary for safety, or not?

Do you actually think these rules make sense and are necessary? Are you going to hand on heart tell me that giving blood in a church is safe but giving blood in a council building is very risky? I'm the same person. I can be excluded from one building, and not the other, with the same set of people around me. Please explain.

[StN]

I could be wrong here, but I understand it a numbers game. Someone with an exemption being granted access is acceptable given to proportion of relative contacts within the space who have assisted in flattening the curve.

Surely if the ratio of conscientious objectors/ferals was higher, then the risk is greater, so limits are placed to enable underfunded and under resourced support systems to cope. These limits need to have teeth and be enforced for the greater good, not to pander to the grumblings of a bunch of wannabe granny killers.

Whilst not accounted for in a blanket ruling, one could expect that a church may well have a smaller public throughput than a council building, and therefore less risk - although the church associated premises I have frequented of late have been very forceful on mask and sign in requirements, recognising that many of the volunteers are in a vulnerable subset of society, and have enforced requirements above the usual guidelines.

[sidbo]

My penis has resumed normality, still tiny.

The people going in to the church are aware of the potential vaccination status of those around them and can then take whatever precautions they personally feel necessary.

In the vaccine pass required institution you (in theory) know the vaccination status of those around you and can adjust your personal behaviour accordingly.

This exclusion made it so those who are particularly vulnerable, or those who support the vulnerable, hell even those who just decided the risk from Covid is more than they are personally willing to wear, can choose their level of potential exposure.

Yes yes yes, vaccines do not prevent transmission, but they demonstrably proved that the transmission rates are significantly lower.

I'm not particularly concerned with getting Covid, but I also don't really want to be a vector for giving it to my anti-vax mother and killing her so I minimise my exposure as I can. The mandates allowed that to happen.

I also personally think the time for the mandates had passed, but then I also agree with the current government not negotiating at all with the occupation. The rightful protest/grievance that did deserve an opportunity to be heard was completely drowned by the fringe elements, agitators, and the vested interests who funded the "protest" for their own gain. The likes of Tamaki et al. I really hope the police here follow the money back to the sources and take action against those who essentially funded domestic insurrection/terrorism/sedition (take your pick). I can almost guarantee these fuckers were not there 'holding the line' but rather inciting via proxies and their useful idiots.

[The Edge]

Like Leighton Baker, failed politician.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-...Z4TP5SYP6C6BM/
Apparently he says he was only there to "cook sausages", but (somehow) this cooking activity involved him spending most of his time there addressing the crowd with a megaphone

[Cyberbob]

Originally Posted by The Edge

Like Leighton Baker

His daughter Chantelle was one of the key people spreading misinformation throughout the battle of portaloo. The whole "police started the fires" thing? The whole reason that got traction was because it was amplified through her 'confirming' the 'facts' with zero proof on her live streams.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Native

"This message is hidden because you have a tiny penis".

FWIW I have edited this to something a bit less antagonistic.

[_indigo1]

Originally Posted by Ab

FWIW I have edited this to something a bit less antagonistic.

below average size?

[Ab]

Just an anodyne "you have chosen to hide posts from this user" or something like that, although the variable is still named message_hidden_tiny_penis.

It's kinda funny. I'm still not 100% sure that I put that there, but if I did it's almost like a snapshot of naive younger me who thought the Internet was about expression and free speech and who thought that someone who hides posts should feel silly. Old me hates the Internet and thinks people are retarded and can't stand reading their retarded thoughts, so to that guy a post-blocking function seems perfectly sensible.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Ab

Just an anodyne "you have chosen to hide posts from this user" or something like that, although the variable is still named message_hidden_tiny_penis.

It's kinda funny. I'm still not 100% sure that I put that there, but if I did it's almost like a snapshot of naive younger me who thought the Internet was about expression and free speech and who thought that someone who hides posts should feel silly. Old me hates the Internet and thinks people are retarded and can't stand reading their retarded thoughts, so to that guy a post-blocking function seems perfectly sensible.

Don't forget, half of all humanity are below average intelligence.

[ChaosWulf]

Originally Posted by Ab

Old me hates the Internet and thinks people are retarded and can't stand reading their retarded thoughts, so to that guy a post-blocking function seems perfectly sensible.

Very much this.

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by sidbo

Yes yes yes, vaccines do not prevent transmission, but they demonstrably proved that the transmission rates are significantly lower.

To all of you who refused to listen,

NZ has one of the highest R values in the world

NZ passes US, UK, and EU for per capita case rate all time high

We, a highly vaccinated country, with all our oldies and vulnerable protected - the ones who need it - are spreading like crazy, getting infected like crazy, even compared to shitty countries with low vaccination rates, WITH the mandates in place. The unvaccinated are still being exposed to people - hell, many of us have been assembling in various places around the country not wearing masks for the last few weeks. Some of us work with you, we shop with you, we pump our gas next to you, we give blood next to you, our kids go to school with your kids - we're not being "protected" by the mandates. And if we're not, then the hospitals aren't. But, we still can't go to restaurants and get a haircut, or even earn a living, because somebody might get COVID.

Your stubbornness made you deny the reality for long enough that idiots latched on to our cause and set fire to Parliament Grounds. I'd love to put the blame squarely on Jacinda. SHE should have listened. But she was listening to people like yourselves. Arguing with the data, with common sense. I tried. I really did. I tried so hard that you're sick of hearing it. But you used your emotions - they are "ferals", they cannot possibly be right. They have a noose - do the opposite of what they want! One of them's a Nazi - quick, ignore them. They must be anti-science, because they said no to injecting something they don't need into their body. Oh it's a numbers game, because if we stop them eating in a restaurant, they stop existing. The stupid model doesn't consider OUTSIDE THE FUCKING RESTAURANT. What difference does it make if I get infected in a restaurant, in a workplace, or from some kid bringing it home from school?

What did it get you? Record breaking cases, a day of violence, and a burnt down slide. Thanks a lot guys. You're awesome.

*slow clap*

The lesson is: even if you don't like someone, listen to what they've got to say. Someone isn't wrong just because they're a dick.

And that concludes my sermon, please put some money in the hat.

[_indigo1]

...

[Ab]

Originally Posted by ChaosWulf

Very much this.

AHAHA YOU ARE OLD NOW TOO

[ChaosWulf]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

The lesson is: even if you don't like someone, listen to what they've got to say. Someone isn't wrong just because they're a dick.

And that concludes my sermon, please put some money in the hat.

I’ve rather enjoyed your sermons, tbh - you see clearly on a lot of this. But here, not so much.

I’ll make my stance clear, although it isn’t required - triple vaxxed, anti-mandate. Refused to go to the work Xmas party because the unvaxxed weren’t invited, and have stood against what I saw as petty division wherever I saw it.
It’s unnecessary backstory, but hopefully it might lend some credibility to the concept that I’m not against what you’ve had to say.

But here’s the thing right, being a dick is at the heart of this wee debate. Not you, but all those muppets throwing their toys in Wellington for 3 weeks.
The mandates were written in haste, flawed, cruel even. They were not adjusted for the various strains, and there has been no transparency on when they’d be lessened - in classic 2nd term Labour style, those in power have just smirked and said nothing.

However, regardless of all of this (which we all know), the people taking vaccines and masking up are doing so to protect everyone else. We don’t want to get stabbed in the arm, but we might know some old folk, or immunocompromised people, or we’re just .. not dicks. We’re not sheeple or even particularly compliant by nature. We’ve just seen a crap situation, believe in the science, and something something the … greater .. good.

People who have chosen not to, all good - their call. I ain’t judging.

But people who have chosen to occupy a public space, declare themselves tangata whenua, throw eggs at school kids and shit & bricks at cops, paint swastikas on the cenotaph, burn the playground and make constant threats to hang the media & politicians? These people are class A dicks. And anyone who has stood beside them, hiding behind their brutality and let them speak for them, these people are also dicks. You are what you walk past, and you are also who you stand beside when it’s your cause. There’s no “fuck man, I was with the Bob Marley / Pleaidian Space Force troop preaching love and light, man, I wasn’t abusing people wearing masks, man” here, all the occupy team were one team if you let that shit stand beside you.

So I’d say no, the moral of the story is “Don’t be a dick and people might hear what you have to say”.

Peace.

[Ab]

"As we say in Germany, if there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis."

[DrTiTus]

Thanks. <3

I wasn't talking about THOSE dicks - I was talking about myself. I've got lots of frenemies here that I enjoy talking to and debating with. That's why I keep posting and not just walking away from the site.

And you're definitely right: don't be a Nazi. Don't bring a noose, someone might get the wrong idea. I saw a completely different environment being there than what I saw on the news - they really did get bad publicity, and it definitely didn't help their cause. Of course the media used people's disgust to discredit their message. I was willing to ignore the negative aspects to support something I believed was fundamentally right.

But I appreciate your support. Principles over popularity.

[_indigo1]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

willing to ignore the negative aspects to support something I believed was fundamentally right

Ahh, religion. Mans best friend.

[Ab]

After tinfoil, you mean.

https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/28-...-in-wellington

[DrTiTus]

Slideshow of the Nazis

These are some of the people you turned your backs on.

The "moocher" guy is at 10 seconds - he's obviously bought himself a wheelchair to keep up his charade. /s

And notice no one had their face covered like anarchists, as you might see with the people on video lighting the fires that ruined it all. Those people are the real assholes in all of this.

I hope you guys can see how twisted this whole situation really is. They were willing to get sprayed with pepper spray and arrested to stand up for other people's jobs. Both sides were doing the hard yards - some getting needles by nurses and hoping for the best, some getting attacked by Police. Neither was pleasant. We played different positions in the team of 5 million. But somewhere along the way we forgot we were all on the same side.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

The "moocher" guy is at 10 seconds - he's obviously bought himself a wheelchair to keep up his charade.

Hope he had image stabilisation enabled on the phone he's holding

[DrTiTus]

Fuck bro. That's gross. What is wrong with you? I hope you're drunk.