Like we got ourselves a convoy

[_indigo1]

Can't really believe I'd see a circumstance where I'd say this; but poor cops having to deal with this bullshit.
And on top of it how much impact is taking this many cops off the job around the country having on regular people.

[DrTiTus]

So many people tooting and giving hang loose, public directing traffic while Police shoot with rubber bullets, with a little kid there!

[Know me.]

Peacemaker...what a joke.

[blynk]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Choices have consequences: Jacinda chose not to listen. This is the consequence. It's perfectly fine, because she made that choice.

Not at all. These people today were not there because of anti mandates.
They were there to cause problems.
Sure maybe if Ardern spoke with the protesters earlier, and they all (the legitimate protesters) went "well she listened to us lets go home" (which I doubt), then these people would have had to go back and find someone else to fight with, or steal from, or damage.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

lol fire

https://twitter.com/sarahjaneparton/...95172771680257

Lol generator

[Ab]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

with a little kid there!

Lol he probably came because there was a kids’ playground

Was

https://twitter.com/AnnekeJSmith/sta...54373547339776

[Ab]

Nothing proves the righteousness of a cause like setting fire to ancient pohutakawa

[DrTiTus]

Sorry indigo, I was caught up in the moment, and reacted and posted before thinking, so I apologize for making it personal. I just thought maybe you would now have had more sympathy for people who chose to refuse after hearing the various effects it has had on others [which we generally didn't hear/know about early on].

In my head, if more people had stood up for "fellow Kiwis" and said "actually, mandates are a step too far, I don't need to be afraid if I am vaccinated myself", then we wouldn't have got to this point. Sadly we were called "selfish, plague bearing cunts", even though everyone's a spreader, and so there was a lot of public support for Jacinda to ignore us. Even with a big march and a very large festival on Parliament grounds that went on for too long, people still say "but you're the minority, so shut up" as though none of these people mattered.

Still being afraid of unvaccinated people is not rational, but surprisingly people are not changing their minds in the face of this very clear evidence. I mean sidbo literally said it today. I don't know if he just doesn't read very much news, or just adopted a hateful position and stuck to it because someone was mean to his wife.

[Native]

Apparently, when I put someone on the ignore list (which I haven't done in almost 20 years - some arses called "alexap" & "InfraredSemen" are on it from way back in the day) - I get the message:

"This message is hidden because you have a tiny penis".

I was going to comment to Ab that I tried, I really did try and keep an open mind and maintain my statistically (but not significantly) above average penis size.

I have a broad and diverse range of media consumption, I engage (with a view to understand and relate) to the anti-vaxers, or vaccine-hesitant, religious and the 'this doesn't feel right' views of my colleagues and acquaintances. I'm fairly well travelled, make an effort to read diverse media, go out of my way to have a diverse range of friends and make an effort to not be a grumpy old cunt.

But on reflection, I'd rather have a tiny penis than continue to read some of the particular comments in this thread.

Sometimes being a grumpy old(er) cunt is alright.

[Ab]

lol I have no idea why that’s the message. I can’t remember doing that; maybe Pimp-X did it?

[sidbo]

I'm with you Native.

I had a response typed out but have decided on balance that I owe no explanation to those that refuse to see what is plainly in front of them, but are too craven to admit they're wrong.

My name is sidbo, and I have a tiny penis.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Native

"This message is hidden because you have a tiny penis".

Oh wow, I totally forgot about that. I remember it from when I had CCS blocked for awhile back in the day, for the sake of community harmony. 😅

[wazza]

Originally Posted by Native

"InfraredSemen"

Lucifa and I used to LAN with this dude back in the QW days. He used to mod his LG so it was a red line and called it a lazerbeam.

was a weirdo, enjoyed him thoroughly

[The Edge]

Originally Posted by Ab

Nothing proves the righteousness of a cause like setting fire to ancient pohutakawa

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/03...liament-burned
Yep, looks like they were really preaching the "peace and love" message there all right

[Ab]

Fine people

https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/02/19/w...by-protesters/

[Cyberbob]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Think about what the protest is about.

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

The mandates you idiot.

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

You're defending a jab that fucked you

This you?

Wait, what was it about again?

[blynk]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

In my head, if more people had stood up for "fellow Kiwis" and said "actually, mandates are a step too far, I don't need to be afraid if I am vaccinated myself"

Maybe there were a lot of people like this.
My view is not about them being diseased and me catching it, my concern is around kids that cant/couldnt be vaccinated
or those that are immune compromised
or those that can't get into the hospital because the ICU is over run.

Also remember a lot of this is all based on Delta as well and keeping the numbers flatter for longer.

[Cyberbob]

Originally Posted by blynk

Not at all. These people today were not there because of anti mandates.
They were there to cause problems. .

100% agreed. Those that were left were far more interested in being part of a riot while chanting their favourite NWA song. I was watching the streams from 3pm-5pm or so. That's when they were starting fires, and throwing old tents onto an ever increasing bonfire. They would have let the entire tree line burn down, and were absolutely assuming all remaining tents were empty when trampling over them.
One threw an LPG cylinder into them with no regard for what could happen next.
After that, they were throwing chairs, and pulling up the pavement bricks and using those.

The police did extremely well IMO. They were drilled, and a hell of a lot more calm and disciplined than I would have been.

[The Edge]

According to misinformation superspreader Chantelle Baker, it was the Police (for some reason) who started the fire, not the rioters. But if that was the case, why were rioters throwing things into it instead of running for their lives?
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/03-...eads-like-fire

[_indigo1]

The thing that makes me the most mad about it all; is that not only are these people so selfish as to not buy into taking personal action to protect others - but on top of it this ridiculous, ignorant, entitled display has closed the doors on any chance of being taken seriously to the small number of people who truly have had medical events worth investigating after the vaccines - many of which will have already suffered a degrading, dismissive uphill battle for much of their lives being taken seriously.

The only silver lining is that the vaccines at least have shone a spotlight on medical areas that have been being swept under the rug and actively dismissed, the patients being discriminated against and patronised for a long time before COVID.
For instance there is evidence that any viral immune reaction can cause long symptoms - including the flu and it's vaccine - in some who have underlying conditions.

At least now with the relative volume of people suffering the symptoms in a short space of time due to COVID, the issue is being noticed and hopefully will get funding and proper attention.

This would have never happened without COVID or the vaccines.

[blynk]

Originally Posted by Cyberbob

The police did extremely well IMO. They were drilled, and a hell of a lot more calm and disciplined than I would have been.

I did see on the feed around that time that there were a couple of police in the riot gear that must of been pissed and were picking the bricks up and throwing them at the protesters.

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by Cyberbob

This you?

Wait, what was it about again?

Getting rid of the mandates. Are you intentionally ignoring the original message because some Black Power prospect types threw bricks and yelled "Fuck the Police"? Or because someone showed a noose representing the Nuremberg Trials/Nuremberg Code against medical experimentation? Because that angle was picked up and ran with by the media, and yet "we" got called Nazis (even though it was the Nazis who were being hung at Nuremberg, for their medical experiments). Why were we not all called Hare Krishnas by the same logic, since there were some of those in the crowd, and by their ideology, eating prasadam (which they provided to the crowd) helps bring you to Krishna? Judging the entire group by the actions of a few is not logical, but that's what is happening, still.

You aren't changing your mind: you're convinced it's righteous and necessary to make the decision you made. To the point you're having "heated debate with your inlaws". I don't agree with that angle personally - let them make their own mind up, I would say. Let THEM be responsible for their own health decisions - but you can manage your relationships how you want. I didn't call you out on it at the time, but I wanted to. I just let you be you. I'm just using it now as an example of you imposing your view on others, but I understand why you're doing it. I don't hold it against you, even if I disagree.

Similarly, I am not changing mine, because I am convinced that where risk is involved, a free choice needs to be allowed. I am also convinced that there is ample evidence demonstrating there IS risk, of injury and even death. That's not really something we should ignore - but most pro-mandate people have. "Nothing wrong with me, so why does he think it's so bad?". Understandable, but naive. I don't like setting a precedent that everyone MUST inject something or else ____. Whatever that consequence is. It's just not right. Let people make their own decisions.

As for blynk's argument (protecting others), there is also plenty of evidence now that shows the risk to others is not reduced from vaccination, so the "moral" argument about protecting kids/vulnerable is no longer valid. It was justified when it was a new treatment that we assumed DID stop infection/transmission, but not anymore. There is even mixed data about the benefit to kids, but as a non-parent, I don't think it's my place to say what other parents should do with their kids, so I don't really go there.

It comes down to risk of hospitalization and we rightly prioritized those people. Yay, we've already saved NZ. Anything more at this point is just silly, but we're doing it because we're scared of COVID.

Here's the thing: both our views can be justified. I understand your position - you heard it might help, so you're "doing your duty". I also heard it can harm, and I'm not at risk, so I'm not taking it personally because I'd rather take my chances. More than that, I saw how people were being coerced, and THAT is the part I disagree with, because that vaccine could do anything - we didn't know, just like we didn't know it didn't stop spread. We still don't know if it will have long term effects, if we're honest, although there is an argument that this is unlikely - but what do I know? Certainly not enough to consent to injecting it.

I don't expect you to make a different decision: you've already made it, it's irreversible. But you CAN realize that others are entitled to make their own decision, and accept that the data shows the "protecting others" argument is not valid, making the mandates unnecessary and simply punitive - which Michael Baker admitted were used as a method to increase vaccine uptake.

I honestly feel like I'm being gaslit - that people are intentionally refusing to accept facts and data, continually countering with blynk's invalid argument, and saying I'm the crazy one because that data is not how it's represented on TV or by bloody NewsHub.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

some Black Power prospect types threw bricks and yelled "Fuck the Police"

these Black Power prospect types were so committed they skipped their mothers' group yoga classes

https://twitter.com/KingSara/status/...834177/photo/1

[Cyberbob]

Originally Posted by The Edge

According to misinformation superspreader Chantelle Baker, it was the Police (for some reason) who started the fire, not the rioters. But if that was the case, why were rioters throwing things into it instead of running for their lives?
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/03-...eads-like-fire

You can clearly see from multiple angles from here for a few minutes until the police step far forward to try and put it out, that it was well in front of the police line.

But you know, The government probably had undercover cops on the other side intentionally being riot instigators to make them look bad.

[Lightspeed]

Here's the thing: both our views can be justified.

A child can justify sticking a marble up their nose, so what?

Mandates are the whole point of having a government. No one is supporting a government that can't implement its policies. There's no use in passing laws people aren't compelled to follow.

If you've been used to freedom up until now, it's only because you're highly conformed or highly privileged.

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by Ab

these Black Power prospect types were so committed they skipped their mothers' group yoga classes

https://twitter.com/KingSara/status/...834177/photo/1

Judging the entire group by the actions of a few is not logical, but that's what is happening, still.

If the entire group planned to pick up pavers and throw them, you would have a point. Unless you can show me where everyone knew this was the plan and agreed to it, my point still stands. It was chaotic, I'm sure everyone's adrenaline was high - even mine was, watching on a live stream. Being there would have been another thing entirely. The common demand was to get rid of mandates. That's what "everyone" wanted.

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Mandates are the whole point of having a government. No one is supporting a government that can't implement its policies. There's no use in passing laws people aren't compelled to follow.

Firstly, I disagree that "mandates" (at least in this context, fuck your weasly word arguments) is the whole point of having a government. If "there's no use passing laws that people aren't compelled to follow", why were we not compelled to address the Bill of Rights?

I know what you're suggesting: "not everyone likes all laws". But laws need to be reasonable, justified, proportional, and consistent. That's not some official definition, so again, fuck your semantic arguments if I've got the criteria wrong. Governments, at least ours, has a responsibility to ensure the laws it does pass are [those things], however they are specifically defined. There are processes in place to address laws which are disputed, protest of which is one, and Government has a responsibility to address these protests. It didn't: chaos ensued.

And I'll just ignore your woke argument with regard to freedom. If you don't believe in freedom, great, but I do. Born on the 4th of July.

Damn it, I fell for your stupid word arguments. You didn't even address a substantial point, just chose a word and picked at it. God you're annoying.

And that's what I mean about being "gaslit" - people aren't actually considering the actual arguments that justify my view, they just present a different argument and then say that I'm selfish. And it's most people [online], then they claim to be in the majority therefore "shut up Nazi". In real life, people that I speak to are at least actually sensible.

Can you actually say why my view is invalid and why I should be excluded from a restaurant because I'm not vaccinated? If you can't, then please agree that mandates are stupid. If you can, I'd love to hear it.

[Lightspeed]

You can totally chuck a marble up your nose if you want. And you can cry when you're no longer allowed marbles.

That's your freedom.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

The common demand was to get rid of mandates. That's what "everyone" wanted.

Exactly! Also, the execution by hanging of politicians, academics, journalists, and police.

[DrTiTus]

Are you just fucking with me now, or this your serious attempt at explaining why I can't eat in a restaurant?

[The Edge]

Speaking of restaurants, this whole thing reminds me of something I read somewhere:
What do you get when you have a Nazi sitting at a table having lunch with 10 other people?
11 Nazis.

There were people in this crowd calling for the execution of the PM, journalists, etc - as well as an end to the mandates. Not exactly "peaceful and loving", were they, "mate"?

[Ab]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Are you just fucking with me now, or this your serious attempt at explaining why I can't eat in a restaurant?

You can't eat in a restaurant if you don't do something that the restaurant has as a condition of eating there. It's private property.

[blynk]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Are you just fucking with me now, or this your serious attempt at explaining why I can't eat in a restaurant?

You can't eat at a restaurant because there were genuine safety concerns about people in an enclosed environment for an extended period of time, without masks that could increase the spread of Covid.
We know vaccines are not 100% effective. They may help, but they will not 100% stop.
There were genuine H&S concerns around workers in those environments that are serving all these people.
There were genuine concerns with Delta and the potential for more serious illness and a higher death rate.
There were genuine concerns about the capacity of hospitals to cope.
There were genuine concerns about the whole supply chain for industries.

[blynk]

Originally Posted by The Edge

According to misinformation superspreader Chantelle Baker, it was the Police (for some reason) who started the fire, not the rioters. But if that was the case, why were rioters throwing things into it instead of running for their lives?
https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/03-...eads-like-fire

Well I see her father was arrested for being in the group of protesters at the end.

[_indigo1]

Originally Posted by blynk

You can't eat at a restaurant because there were genuine safety concerns about people in an enclosed environment for an extended period of time, without masks that could increase the spread of Covid.
We know vaccines are not 100% effective. They may help, but they will not 100% stop.
There were genuine H&S concerns around workers in those environments that are serving all these people.
There were genuine concerns with Delta and the potential for more serious illness and a higher death rate.
There were genuine concerns about the capacity of hospitals to cope.
There were genuine concerns about the whole supply chain for industries.

You've gone too far.

The bare fact of the matter is that he has the reason. The reason is because there is a mandate disallowing him to do so which was enacted by our democratically elected government.

As for the explanation - he is not entitled to an explanation - as a representative of the people it is not required to present logical explanations for decisions that the public must agree to or even understand. That's the representative part.
Of course good politics means helping the public understand - but that's a different issue.

He is trying to second guess our democratic process.
Don't get sucked into trying to explain away why our leaders are making the decisions they are - the fact is neither he nor you nor I even know the full story - and it is by design not required that we do.

[Cyberbob]

Call them mandates if you want, but there's always been a point where certain regulations get put into place in favor of social health over individual freedoms.

It's anything from why you can't own a gun lawfully without a license, and can't drive drunk.

It's also the choice of the property owner in some cases. It's why I can't go to a posh restaurant in town with bare feet. They get to choose who comes in.

[DrTiTus]

Bill of Rights says you can't discriminate (including medical condition): I think the bare feet thing is a health and safety issue wherever there is alcohol being served (glass bottles), and they can certainly tell you that there are no tables if they don't like you. It's not discrimination, it's just a loophole to keep you out. If they told you that you can't come in because you're black, it's a different story.

You guys are clutching at straws here: You can't because you're told you can't, therefore do as you're told.

If it was law that blacks couldn't go to restaurants [such as in the past], would you just tell them to deal with it, because that's what the law says, or would you protest on their behalf because it's fundamentally not right?

[_indigo1]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Bill of Rights says you can't discriminate

You are not the arbiter of the application of NZ law, or likely even qualified to interpret it.

If you think someone has broken NZ law, take them to court.
Until then they have every right to exclude you from their property.

[blynk]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

If it was law that blacks couldn't go to restaurants [such as in the past], would you just tell them to deal with it, because that's what the law says, or would you protest on their behalf because it's fundamentally not right?

This is something that always goes through my thoughts when someone says "its a private business, they can do what they like".

But we are restricting people based on legitimate health reasons

[Cyberbob]

I have zero problem with people standing up for something they believe is wrong.

I've been part of protests in the past, done correctly and peacefully. I have problems with people jumping on the band-wagon to instigate violence and looking for an excuse to contribute to a riot.

These are not isolated incidents. The most prolific coordinators of the occupation weren't even there. One of the main online coordinators in their private group was comfortably sitting in her house in Hamilton the entire time. Anyone see Tamaki or Coutts yesterday? That tv reporter chick that went anti-vax crazy?

I found a video of what appears to be the first fire being started. Cops nowhere near it. But don't let the facts get in the way of a good misinformation story.

Coordinating for women and children to be used as shields anyone?

I'd love to know what cross section of the occupation'ers on that last day were already known to police. I'd wager it's a fair few.

These people had zero interest in being heard, wanting to feel connected, and looking after the kids.

Freedom? Fuck off. They had all the freedom to protest they needed until they started becoming a risk to others.