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Old 3rd September 2020, 02:38     #5721
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Yeah, Dr Shane is a standout this past couple of weeks. Where has National been hiding him?
More like why have they bought him out now. It seems in NZ at least divisional attack politics is played out, for now at least. Competence speaks louder than vapid questioning of authority.

Which is great.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 08:46     #5722
pxpx
 
How do you explain the Labor cabinet then
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Old 26th September 2020, 07:18     #5723
fixed_truth
 
You'd think that National would be very careful to protect the myth that they're competent financial managers. Afterall it's all they've got now. But no, the headlines keep rolling in.

Quote:
National Party admits $4 billion hole in their promised spending

National's fiscal hole appears to double to $8 billion as Paul Goldsmith denies double count mistake

Paul Goldsmith admits he didn't account for tax loss by axing Super Fund payments in fiscal plan

National and economics agency now backing two different sets of numbers
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Old 26th September 2020, 12:28     #5724
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
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Old 6th October 2020, 23:46     #5725
Lightspeed
 
Laugh

Collins ‘popped in’ to Anglican church to briefly threaten God before voting

Quote:
When pictures emerged of Collins inside Auckland’s St. Thomas Tāmaki church on Sunday, it was widely believed the opposition leader had tripped and fallen, and become wedged between two pews, awaiting rescue
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Old 9th February 2021, 19:12     #5726
Lightspeed
 
National commits to banning conversion therapy after Collins googles it

Actual headline.
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Old 26th April 2021, 12:19     #5727
Lightspeed
 
Laugh

Aarg! I'm trying to find something I'm sure I posted here. It was what National listed as their budgets for education and healthcare. They had on the government website their much touted increased spending, but when you looked it was opaquely worded and seemed to suggest the land value increases were included in these figure.

HOWEVER I keep tripping over you cunts painting me as an idiot for suggesting the social decay we're seeing might be related to the undermining of our social services.

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Old 28th April 2021, 11:32     #5728
Lightspeed
 
Where xor gets their talking points from:

Collins says her party won't stand for 'racist separatism' New Zealand

Quote:
"This is actually an issue of poverty and opportunity. It is not an issue, intrinsically based on or linked to ethnicity and to say it is ignores the fact that there are many New Zealanders of many different ethnicities who struggle.
That's right, poverty isn't about Maori. That Maori are disproportionally represented by poverty stats is about us and how we treat those we recognise as Maori.

Quote:
"We have to understand that we either have a country built on a separate system for Māori versus every other New Zealander, or we have a system that is based on equality and on bringing opportunity through to every New Zealander, irrespective of face.
We have a separate system for Maori versus every other New Zealander because that's what we fuckin' built. Generations of Maori have accepted these circumstances thrust upon them, now we're all "aw nah, we're not doing that any more, don't you fuckin' come talkin' about how you're hard done by, we're all one people."

Still don't get why I'd need any kind of opsec or why anyone would think I'm important or some kind of moral paragon. I definitely don't make those claims. Do I? I was a drunken mess a lot of my 20s. Pretty sure people saw that. If I have a reputation with anyone, I don't know those people.
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Old 28th April 2021, 13:49     #5729
blynk
 
The point of Poverty is not based on ethnicity is completely true, anyone can go into or come out of poverty.

But yes, they completely miss the point that NZ (as a lot of countries) have had a long period of creating an environment where different ethnicities are more likely to be screwed over.


But hey, JK grey up in a state house and look at him now. Everyone can go do that.
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Old 28th April 2021, 17:35     #5730
xor
 
Talofa, Jeremy.
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Old 5th June 2021, 18:51     #5731
Lightspeed
 
Paul Goldsmith: racist cunt.

Colonisation a good thing for Māori 'on balance' - National MP Paul Goldsmith

I've heard people who have been raped by their caregivers tell how their caregiver would say they're still better off than if they were on the streets. That's what Goldsmith thinks we should be about.
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Old 5th June 2021, 20:23     #5732
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Depends on what factors are included in the calculation of balance. His comment doesn’t strike me as prima facie controversial.
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Old 5th June 2021, 21:06     #5733
Lightspeed
 
Why the fucking calculation? It's pure abuser logic.
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Old 5th June 2021, 23:12     #5734
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Some colonised cultures were destroyed. Maori culture was not. In fact, it is arguably stronger now than at any time in the last 100 years. It’s a complicated issue. Grownups can talk about complicated issues. Nothing Goldsmith said in that Stuff piece offends me. In fact I find his position - that for an education spokesman, fixing what’s broken in NZ’s education system and preparing NZ children for the challenges of the 21st century are more important than fixating on imported American “culture war” narratives - to be common sense.
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Old 6th June 2021, 08:14     #5735
fixed_truth
 
As someone non-Maori Goldsmith shouldn't be broadcasting his outsider interpretations & representations of Maori in the media. He doesn't get to impose his calculations. Also I think you need to compare Maori culture PRE-colonisation and not just since it was suppressed & systematically dismantled.
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Old 6th June 2021, 17:57     #5736
xor
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
As someone non-Maori Goldsmith shouldn't be broadcasting his outsider interpretations & representations of Maori in the media.
Why shouldn't he be entitled to speak his mind? As stupid as his statement was.
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Old 6th June 2021, 19:50     #5737
fixed_truth
 
Well he can as this speech isn't illegal. The point is he shouldn't because it's not his place to dictate the way in which Maori (a group he's not a part of) progress is measured. His hierarchy of desired outcomes probably doesn't match with the Maori worldview. It also perpetuates the common racist view that Maori should stop whining about being on the bottom rung of society & be grateful that they were colonized because they were barbaric savages who needed to be saved by the white man.
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Last edited by fixed_truth : 6th June 2021 at 19:53.
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Old 6th June 2021, 20:40     #5738
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
I thought what he said in the interview was perfectly sensible.
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Old 6th June 2021, 23:22     #5739
fixed_truth
 
He's talking about while privilege without understanding what it is. All people with white skin have white privilege. He basically wants to ignore one side of the equation by not taking into consideration racial discrimination & bigotry towards Maori. Hey let's just stop this by making Maori better so people won't have a reason to be racist anymore!

His colonisation crap is dog whistling & in bad taste for going there.

Quote:
"Colonisation of this country destroyed Māori communities. Our people were murdered, men, women and children. Our women were raped. We were dehumanised and lied to. Treated with disdain and as second class citizens and this joke of a man says it was good for us.”
Tukaki calls for National MP's resignation after colonisation 'on balance' good for Māori comment

Rawiri Waititi, Marama Davidson blast National's Paul Goldsmith over colonisation 'on balance' comments

Quote:
As they set about ensuring their supremacy through war and all the other brutality of dispossession, the colonisers wrote new stories that deliberately misremembered and obscured the injustice of what they were doing. History became a kind of rebranding in which colonisation was not seen as a violent home invasion but a grand if sometimes flawed adventure that was somehow ‘better’ here than anywhere else because of the proclaimed honour of the Crown in treaty-making.
https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/07-03-...s-in-the-land/
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Old 7th June 2021, 01:32     #5740
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Take a look around the colonial powers of the 19th century and tell me, if the settlers and soldiers and legal systems were going to roll up the beach whether you liked it or not, which one you'd take if you had a choice.

The Dutch? How'd that work out for the Dutch West Indies.
The Japanese? How'd that work out for Manchuria.
The French? How'd that work out for Algeria.
The Germans? How'd that work out for German South West Africa.
The Russians? How'd that work out for Finland.
The Belgians? How'd that work out for the Belgian Congo.

The British? Well, right here is an April letter to me from the Ministry of Justice and the Maori Land Court acknowledging me as a successful claimant (among many) in a land claim shitfest that has been dragging on for five generations.



Among the many reasons why the helpful Maori lawyer with whom I have spent so much time on Zoom in the past year was able to get shit done were such things as:

- oral cultures have veeeeeeeeery long memories.
- the colonisers were from the nation who had in their own intellectual background such things as Magna Carta and Mill's On Liberty and the rule of law. And colonisation means that those are part of my intellectual background, and my Maori lawyer's intellectual background, and we'll see you in court whitey. Owned.

My mother's father's father's mother was bayoneted to death by a British soldier and her body dumped in a mass grave. That's just one data point in the clusterfuck of native-colonial interaction in NZ. None of that shit has been forgotten. Like I said, long memories. But it's complicated. I'm also descended from some of those colonists. And I am 100% convinced that if any other colonial power than Britain had been the one to roll up that beach, there would have been no Treaty and no five generations of angry whanau waiting for a day in court. There would have been exterminations and no records, the end.

Seriously guys, if I consider Goldsmith's comments to be basically statements of fact, that's a good hint that the issue isn't, um, black or white.
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Old 7th June 2021, 01:37     #5741
Lightspeed
 
I'm not going to question or challenge your response. Mine however remains unchanged.
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Old 7th June 2021, 01:53     #5742
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
I am 100% convinced that if any other colonial power than Britain had been the one to roll up that beach, there would have been no Treaty and no five generations of angry whanau waiting for a day in court. There would have been exterminations and no records, the end.
I also acknowledge that "exterminations and no records" was the British Empire's method in many other places it invaded, so one might also say we were fortunate to get the particular Britain that we got. A bit earlier and we might have been treated like the Australian Aborigines; a bit later and we might have been treated like the Kikuyu.
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Old 7th June 2021, 08:36     #5743
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Seriously guys, if I consider Goldsmith's comments to be basically statements of fact, that's a good hint that the issue isn't, um, black or white.
That’s the interesting thing, obviously Maori definitely aren’t a homogeneous group. There are often differing positions on issues between different iwi and I suppose there’s traditional systems in place to determine who has a mandate to speak on behalf of iwi. But even this looks complex as looking recently at Ihumātao where those with a mandate made what they thought was a pragmatic decision and the younger members were like nah fuck that we want this, and ended up getting it.

I think the problem is that Goldsmith has politicised the whole thing and communicated his point irresponsibly by not safeguarding against the racist rhetoric that he knows goes along with it. There were less sympathetic models of colonial rule but claiming “colonisation a good thing for Māori 'on balance” is highly inflammatory and he shouldn’t have said it like that.
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Old 7th June 2021, 10:59     #5744
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
When something that the guy said quite publicly two years ago all of a sudden becomes A Big Deal Online, he ain’t the one politicising it.
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Old 7th June 2021, 13:06     #5745
Lightspeed
 
This issue is personal for me as well. I might not be Maori, but lots of the kids I grew up with were. Tikipunga the demographics were fairly equally split between Maori and Pakeha.

I can't imagine how twisted I would have to be to say to some of them with all I saw them bear and no doubt still bear "Yeah that all sucked, but on balance...".

That's really what I'm reacting to. This isn't an abstract philosophical idea for me. I carry shit and that shit is screaming "cunt" at Goldsmith right now.
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Old 7th June 2021, 17:17     #5746
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Calculation

This is Māori paramount chief Te Mātenga Taiaroa. Among the many things for which he is remembered is the freeing of one of his slaves and allowing a marriage between that man and one of his daughters in 1837.*



In NZ, ownership of people only became illegal with the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi. What do you hate the most: slavery or colonisation?


* Taiaroa is my father's mother's mother's father's father's father. Thus I am the descendant of a slaveowner with all the inherited privilege that entails, and I will completely understand if you all have to denounce me.
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Old 7th June 2021, 18:14     #5747
crocos
 
Burn Ab at the stake? Well, if you insist...
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Old 7th June 2021, 18:58     #5748
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
In NZ, ownership of people only became illegal with the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi. What do you hate the most: slavery or colonisation?
Or is this another part of NZ history that was rebranded?

Colonisation effect on ending Maori slavery overstated, says author
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Old 7th June 2021, 20:09     #5749
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
A complicated issue, that grownups can talk about.
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Old 7th June 2021, 21:09     #5750
Lightspeed
 
We might be having a grown up conversation. Paul Goldsmith was not.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 23:35     #5751
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
In other news, the Todd Muller experiment just keeps paying dividends for National:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nation...NLLPV3NEMOZRE/
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Old 24th June 2021, 09:13     #5752
blynk
 
Great work from Muller.
Stand in election. 6 months later say you are going to resign at the next election.

Quality.
Collins issue is she could try and force him to go early, but that would cause a bi-election, which there is possibility Nats could lose.
Or keep him around, and have him cause more issues.
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Old 24th June 2021, 20:55     #5753
The Edge
 
Yep, bet he thinks it was all worth it rolling Bridges to take on the top job now...not.
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Old 30th June 2021, 11:32     #5754
fixed_truth
 
National Party is self-destructing, former minister says

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/polit...-minister-says

Ouch
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Old 3rd August 2021, 15:08     #5755
Lightspeed
 
I respect this effort:

National MP Stuart Smith faces climate-change deniers' wrath in Ashburton
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Old 3rd August 2021, 15:38     #5756
fixed_truth
 
Fuck with Judith & she'll bottle you


https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/polit...-collins-claim

Unfortunately she'll be replaced before the next election.
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Last edited by fixed_truth : 3rd August 2021 at 15:40.
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Old 3rd August 2021, 16:47     #5757
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Same Stuart Smith that is going on an anti "Aotearoa" rant lately?
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Old 3rd August 2021, 16:59     #5758
Lightspeed
 
You tell me. I'll still recognise this as important work.
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Old 3rd August 2021, 17:11     #5759
crocos
 
I suppose "Doesn't matter about the science, or even if it's real, but our trading partners are treating it as real and might level tariffs if we don't do something" is one way to get around the climate change deniers.
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Old 3rd August 2021, 17:31     #5760
xor
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
Fuck with Judith & she'll bottle you


https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/polit...-collins-claim

Unfortunately she'll be replaced before the next election.
Incitement of violence. Looking forward to seeing these journalists thrown in jail.
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