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Old 10th December 2014, 19:57     #2921
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
Income inequality stunts NZ growth - OECD

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=11371860
You mean "increase in income inequality stunted NZ growth".
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Old 10th December 2014, 20:56     #2922
chubby
 
Thumbs down

he means the economic structure relying upon and perpetuating income inequality stunts worldwide growth.
was that just the lameass punctuation sperge intro to one of CoCkSuckers tirade distactions?

yes.
yes, i think so.
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Old 10th December 2014, 21:58     #2923
fixed_truth
 
Inequality damaging NZ's economy - OECD

http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/inequa...#ixzz3LRHExcIQ
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Old 11th December 2014, 07:00     #2924
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
The inequality gap needs to increase some more; the deadbeats we have would be best served by experiencing a lifestyle consistent with the effort of their contribution.
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Old 11th December 2014, 07:01     #2925
pxpx
 
Ah so the steep rise in income inequality during the 80s and 90s was the fault of the current government?

Gotcha.
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Old 11th December 2014, 09:08     #2926
Lightspeed
 
What about the rise in inequality that's occurring now?

Oh wait, we have a rockstar economy, it's just some NZers are getting greedier and lazier. /s
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Old 11th December 2014, 09:41     #2927
pxpx
 
Sounds like some of the inequality is self inflicted
Quote:
Trudy Tapu, Hamilton

Trudy Tapu, 25, has three children aged 9, 8 and 6, with a fourth due in July. Her partner is a seasonal farm worker who has just finished a job, so the family are on a jobseeker benefit. "I came here last year and the year before. I used to live in Auckland," said Trudy. "I brought my brother and the whole family, just for the Christmas spirit."
Lets have 4 kids on a seasonal farm workers wages. Because welfare!
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Old 11th December 2014, 10:00     #2928
Lightspeed
 
Damn pxpx, you show off a gross lack of insight sometimes.
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Old 11th December 2014, 10:22     #2929
pxpx
 
Feel free to make your point clearer then.
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Old 11th December 2014, 10:37     #2930
Lightspeed
 
Well we could start with how getting pregnant, giving birth, raising children is not an economic decision in any species, humans are no exception. In fact in resource distress humans tend to have more children, in resource abundance we have less.

And that's just a start, before we even begin considering any values and principles we might hold as a society and the reasons we hold those values.
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Old 11th December 2014, 11:16     #2931
spigalau
 
How does one become a 'Professional Beneficiary' ? What skill set does one require ? How much can I get ?
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Old 11th December 2014, 12:56     #2932
Jodi
 
The benifit is a drop in the ocean compared to superannuation, so I don't really care about the benifit bludgers.
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Old 11th December 2014, 13:22     #2933
Omegakai
 
because only the wealthy should have kids ? right?
I know where this train of thought is going....
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Old 11th December 2014, 13:52     #2934
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omegakai
I know where this train of thought is going..
But only because you're steering it that way, ya creep.
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Old 11th December 2014, 14:12     #2935
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
Inequality damaging NZ's economy - OECD

http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/inequa...#ixzz3LRHExcIQ
Again, you are making a claim that the OECD is not. The OECD report says that an increase in income equality that occurred in the late eighties and early nineties negatively affected the size of NZ's economy as it was in 2010.

It says nothing about inequality NOW or how it affects NZ NOW. You can infer what you like, but don't post your inferences and then say that's what the report says.
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Old 11th December 2014, 14:13     #2936
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jodi
The benifit is a drop in the ocean compared to superannuation, so I don't really care about the benifit bludgers.
WHY U HATE BOOMERS SO MUCH JODI
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Old 11th December 2014, 14:14     #2937
Omegakai
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
But only because you're steering it that way, ya creep.
Look the point I was trying to make (but failing) was that narrow-minded people have narrow-minded views, often they are bigoted and generally go along race/wealth/class lines. Often those people overlook the fact that not everyone has the same opportunities, nor does everyone make the choices even if given those opportunities.
People that spout on about this normally quickly move on to “from my experiences” or things they have seen regarding people on welfare, then quickly jump over to race generally described as “in their culture”.
Don’t get me wrong, I am totally into personal reasonability and all that, but it upsets me when people go on about how the poor just need to suck it up. and that it’s their fault for being poor etc etc. most of those kinds of people, haven’t a fucking clue.
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Old 11th December 2014, 14:31     #2938
pxpx
 
There's a lot of arguments being rammed into other peoples mouths in that post.
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Old 11th December 2014, 14:34     #2939
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Again, you are making a claim that the OECD is not. The OECD report says that an increase in income equality that occurred in the late eighties and early nineties negatively affected the size of NZ's economy as it was in 2010.

It says nothing about inequality NOW or how it affects NZ NOW. You can infer what you like, but don't post your inferences and then say that's what the report says.
Yeah, cause humanity has taken a such dramatic shift in the last couple of decades. Now inequality is doubleplus good for us!
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Old 11th December 2014, 16:29     #2940
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Inequality is complicated. Matters are not helped by proclaiming that a study says something it doesn't.
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Old 11th December 2014, 16:31     #2941
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Again, you are making a claim that the OECD is not. The OECD report says that an increase in income equality that occurred in the late eighties and early nineties negatively affected the size of NZ's economy as it was in 2010.

It says nothing about inequality NOW or how it affects NZ NOW. You can infer what you like, but don't post your inferences and then say that's what the report says.
I haven't made any claims or inferences.

My take on the report (with it's research showing that addressing inequality directly won't harm growth) is that hopefully it will help in the move further away from neoliberalism ie.
Quote:
"focusing exclusively on growth and assuming that its benefits will automatically trickle down to the different segments of the population may undermine growth in the long run inasmuch as inequality actually increases."
"The paper also finds no evidence that redistributive policies, such as taxes and social benefits, harm economic growth, provided these policies are well designed, targeted and implemented.”
And National's response:
Quote:
Finance Minister Bill English says he disagrees with an OECD report which has found inequality is bad for economic growth and attacks trickle-down economics.
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Old 11th December 2014, 16:35     #2942
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Inequality is complicated. Matters are not helped by proclaiming that a study says something it doesn't.
Everything is complicated. Matters are not helped by refusing to consider any science that doesn't tell us what's happening right here in this moment.
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Old 11th December 2014, 17:18     #2943
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Who's refusing to consider anything?
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Old 11th December 2014, 21:22     #2944
Gijoe^
 
after 10-20 years of trickle down economics in the US you just know its working grrreat for them right!

that great social feeling of joy at there own nations policing and health care that you can trust in!
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Old 12th December 2014, 07:25     #2945
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gijoe^
after 10-20 years of trickle down economics in the US you just know its working grrreat for them right!
The US hasn't gone far enough. They need to wind back ten decades of failed social engineering and reestablish an underclass proud to be in servitude and looked after accordingly. The chosen alternative of having an underclass that isn't proud and isn't looked after is simply dumb.

The same is true here. There are people whose natural station in life is to be a live in house helper who should be rewarded with food, accommodation, some pocket money and one day off a week. These people should not have too many children and in most cases none is the right number for them to choose.

The downfall started with those who are not substantive land owners getting to vote; what a disaster that has been.

The problem today is pretty easy to avoid. There is no reason to visit suburbs where the underclass live. There's not many of them so in an uprising they could be suppressed very easily. Voting for a sensible Government (so a blue logo here) will whittle away the damage down a little bit each term until we're back to where we should be.

I say ignore the problem - it's very easy to do and it's the right thing to do.

As soon as the minimum wage is gone I'll provide a warm bed and a sense of worth through hard work for a couple of them.
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Old 12th December 2014, 07:40     #2946
chubby
 
Big Smile

lol.
whos for xmas in GT's dickensian wonderland?
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Old 12th December 2014, 08:09     #2947
pxpx
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Teapot
These people should not have too many children and in most cases none is the right number for them to choose.
That's not very sustainable though!
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Old 12th December 2014, 09:33     #2948
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Teapot
natural station in life
lolz, this ole chestnut eh?

What GT doesn't know is that he's just a couple of rare, but completely possible events or circumstances that could drop him and his right into this station he describes.

Another thing GT doesn't seem to be aware of is how different things are to how they were. The insight and education that only the elite were able to access is largely now free and abundant. Sure, many might not take that up, but there are plenty who will that previously would not have had the opportunity and this is only generating a continuing feedback loop. The uprising won't be what he expects.
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Old 12th December 2014, 09:42     #2949
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Who's refusing to consider anything?
Bill English appears to refuse to consider the findings of the OECD report, you seem to be offering rationale for that. Otherwise I'm not really sure why you're offering a critique of the report. Yes, the value of any study is limited and you point out a particular limitation, but the limitation you suggest is limited and does not completely or even significantly undermine the findings.
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Old 12th December 2014, 13:13     #2950
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Bill English appears to refuse to consider the findings of the OECD report, you seem to be offering rationale for that.
Where?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
you're offering a critique of the report.
Where?
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Old 12th December 2014, 14:03     #2951
Lightspeed
 
I'm guessing you're taking some issue with semantics, which isn't to say that you don't have a point, I just don't get where you're coming from given the answer to "where" is in this thread, on this page.

You'll note I used some weasel words "appears to/seems to". I did so to indicate I am talking from perception and am willing to consider other perceptions, were they presented.

Edit: maybe those aren't strictly weasel words, I think my meaning is clear though.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 12th December 2014 at 14:04.
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Old 12th December 2014, 14:08     #2952
Lightspeed
 
I just found this great quote on the internets:
"Politicians use research findings the way a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not for illumination." - Jared Bernstein, Economist
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Old 12th December 2014, 14:21     #2953
leadinjector
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Well we could start with how getting pregnant, giving birth, raising children is not an economic decision in any species, humans are no exception. In fact in resource distress humans tend to have more children, in resource abundance we have less.

And that's just a start, before we even begin considering any values and principles we might hold as a society and the reasons we hold those values.
humans do a lot of shit that doesnt make sense. we are all in control of what we choose to do with the hand we are dealt though (well except the loonies) so i have a lot of trouble feeling much pity for someone with a seasonal job who has 4 kids to feed, especially if they are adding to that brood when they know they cant afford it.

or actually i should say i dont have a problem with that- i would only have a problem if they made a big fuss out of it. people who bellyache on campbell live about how they should be able to get by with their 6 kids on a shitty income are the ones who annoy me.

and yes, its natural to want kids, blah blah blah. so? people quell urges to do shit all the time. just today i had to quell the urge to reverse into some stupid woman who stopped to chat on her phone -while- standing behind my parking spot. instead i yelled at her.
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Old 12th December 2014, 14:54     #2954
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadinjector
humans do a lot of shit that doesnt make sense.
Every single human action makes sense, if you have sufficient knowledge and understanding. Unless the universe itself is irrational or humans are not of the universe.
Quote:
and yes, its natural to want kids, blah blah blah. so? people quell urges to do shit all the time. just today i had to quell the urge to reverse into some stupid woman who stopped to chat on her phone -while- standing behind my parking spot. instead i yelled at her.
People quell their urges when they think it is in their interest to do so. They don't quell their urges so much because it's in someone else's interest. Also, it takes insight to quell urges and some urges take more insight than others. Developing insight takes resources, it doesn't appear by magic.
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Old 12th December 2014, 15:50     #2955
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadinjector
we are all in control of what we choose to do with the hand we are dealt though
I know that this sounds common sense but actually much of the relevant fields of science here assume this NOT to be true.

So if we're looking at how to avoid people with limited resources having 6+ kids for example; then we should really consider the biological and environmental factors that affect outcomes here and make decisions on how/if to intervene based on what research has shown to work.
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Old 12th December 2014, 15:57     #2956
pxpx
 
Sounds good.

Tell that to the left wing of new zealand politics please.
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Old 12th December 2014, 16:34     #2957
fixed_truth
 
Lol but not the team you root for aye? They're all about evidence based policy!

Andrew Little seemed to take the latest OECD research quite seriously so I think they'll be right.
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Old 15th December 2014, 15:40     #2958
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
I took some time to do something totally crazy - like, read the report - and while I ain't no international economist of mystery a few things stood out to me. According to the report:

Education does not improve economic growth. Throw heaps of money at education, whatever, doesn't make a difference.

Investment does not improve economic growth. Whatever, doesn't make a difference.

Inequality between the ninth and tenth deciles (high earners at the top of the scale) and the average income has no effect whatsoever on growth. Say it with me now, according to this report a huge inequality between the super-rich and the average earner has no impact on economic growth.

Inequality between the fourth decile (slightly-below average) income and the average income has a huge impact on growth. So the biggest thing you can do to improve economic growth is to tax the average earner more and lift the slightly-below-average earners a little bit.

And regarding the conclusion that everyone so excitedly jumped on after reading nothing but a badly-written headline in a news article: again, I ain't no economist, but it seems to me after reading the report that report's focus on New Zealand in the 80s and early 90s could lead to a completely reversed conclusion: that slow economic growth such as that experienced by NZ in that time negatively impacted equality. Not the other way around.
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Old 15th December 2014, 15:45     #2959
Delphinus
 
Was there anything about improving inequality between say the 4th decile (below average) and the 9th/10th decile (above average)?
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Old 15th December 2014, 18:54     #2960
StN
I have detailed files
 
Only if the 4th decile offered to be the 10th decile's live-in love slave.
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