Stuff Winston

cEvin · 4th November 2011, 14:58

Stuff did a live chat with Winston todya, read at your own peril!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/poli...Winston-Peters

Furry Crew · 4th November 2011, 15:07

if this isn't a advertisement for why MMP is a bad bad thing thing I don't know what is...

crocos · 4th November 2011, 15:44

STV FTW!

cEvin · 4th November 2011, 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocos

STV FTW!

Why?

fixed_truth · 4th November 2011, 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Furry Crew

if this isn't a advertisement for why MMP is a bad bad thing thing I don't know what is...

What do you mean by that?

I don't care for most of what Winston is about but if he wins an electorate or NZF gets enough votes then why shouldn't he be in parliament?

crocos · 4th November 2011, 17:00

Supplimentary Member strikes me as a slightly watered down version of FPP

FPP I have much dislike for - blatently misrepresents the actual population's voting.

MMP I dislike the party list concept as it means dead-wood that can't win a seat on their own merits can get a seat simply because they're a high-ranked party member.

STV means more electorates (akin to SM / FPP) and no party-list, but at least people need to win their electorate, but under the quorum rules and discard-counting of STV to ensure that it's more representative than FPP/SM

Frankly I don't think there's any such thing as a perfect electoral voting mechanism.

(I know there's a 5th type that's up for consideration but can't remember what I didn't like about it off hand)

cEvin · 4th November 2011, 22:14

I think STV has potential but MMP is going to steamroll - people to afraid to research and trust something new.

Anyway we're off topic - agree with fixed_truth - if he gets the votes then he deserves to represent. He doesn't seem to be promising anything too crazy (although another change of GST would be quite annoying) and he still has his trademark confidence and wit :D

ilk · 4th November 2011, 23:39

Isn't this as simple as "How much do you like democracy?" Are any of the proposed systems more democratic than MMP?

Ab · 5th November 2011, 00:08

I've lived with STV on this side of the Tasman for a while, like it more than MMP.

fixed_truth · 5th November 2011, 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilk

Isn't this as simple as "How much do you like democracy?" Are any of the proposed systems more democratic than MMP?

I guess that this could vary depending on who you ask. Here's Gorden Campbell's commentary on AU's Political Science Associate Professor Raymond Miller:

Quote:

As Miller says, STV doesn’t involve list MPs. “ So it has that attraction for those who don’t like list MPs. Its not as proportional as MMP, so it doesn’t deliver for small parties as much representation.”

Quote:

Nothing in the above is meant to suggest that our current version of MMP is a perfect system. At the same time, nothing has emerged from the 15 years of New Zealand’s experience with MMP to alter the Royal Commission’s basic judgement – that of all the options available, MMP is the most fair system, and the one that delivers the most democratic outcomes. Essentially, its flaws are fixable – and those flaws are not as grievous as the ones in the systems vying to replace it.

Luckily, the mechanism for fixing MMP is already on the rails. The Key government – in the shape of outgoing Justice Minister Simon Power – has already signed off on an independent review of MMP to be conducted next year, with a view to addressing aspects of the system in need of fine-tuning.

http://werewolf.co.nz/2011/10/why-mm...e-best-option/

MrTTTT · 9th November 2011, 14:45

Winston is awesome.
Party vote NZFirst!

A Corpse · 9th November 2011, 18:44

Their hoardings (here in the 'tron at least) say "We win, you win".

Riiiiiiight.

cyc · 10th November 2011, 03:04

Cunt face Peters shows his amazing grasp of the law again:

http://www.nzfirst.org.nz/press-rele...php?t=1&i=3013

"The Treaty [of Waitangi] is not a binding legal document."

[WanG] Wandarah · 10th November 2011, 11:21

Arf arf arf

MrTTTT · 10th November 2011, 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyc

Cunt face Peters shows his amazing grasp of the law again:

http://www.nzfirst.org.nz/press-rele...php?t=1&i=3013

"The Treaty [of Waitangi] is not a binding legal document."

who cares bru. his message speaks to the heart.

Draco T Bastard · 12th November 2011, 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilk

Isn't this as simple as "How much do you like democracy?"

Yes.

Quote:

Are any of the proposed systems more democratic than MMP?

No.

Ab · 14th November 2011, 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco T Bastard

No.

Disagree. Under MMP you can be rejected by the voters but still get a seat at the trough because your Party decides its wishes are more important than those of the voters.

A Corpse · 14th November 2011, 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab

...Party decides its wishes are more important than those of the voters.

Prepares voters perfectly for the following 3 years, doesn't it?

Ab · 14th November 2011, 20:01

At least under STV you get to feel guilty for voting the motherfuckers in. Under MMP it's possible for a candidate to get ZERO VOTES and still make it to Parliament.

chubby · 14th November 2011, 20:36

^^ you getting this elections 'sorry for voting ACT' thread warmed up yet?

adonis · 14th November 2011, 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab

Disagree. Under MMP you can be rejected by the voters but still get a seat at the trough because your Party decides its wishes are more important than those of the voters.

This is a problem that gets progressively worse the further to the right you go. Got a problem with the way your party works? Demand democratic reforms to how it is run. You're not pointing out a problem with MMP, you're pointing out a lack of democracy in the parties you support.

Politicians are there to represent the people that elect them, they are under no obligation to cater to majority opinion. If you're not happy with how your party is run, tell them to fix it or vote for someone else.

Draco T Bastard · 14th November 2011, 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab

At least under STV you get to feel guilty for voting the motherfuckers in. Under MMP it's possible for a candidate to get ZERO VOTES and still make it to Parliament.

Which, of course, is wrong. People voted for the party and thus the people on the party list. If they didn't like the list then they wouldn't have voted for the party.

Ab · 14th November 2011, 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by adonis

This is a problem that gets progressively worse the further to the right you go. Got a problem with the way your party works? Demand democratic reforms to how it is run. You're not pointing out a problem with MMP, you're pointing out a lack of democracy in the parties you support.

Darien Fenton's going to get obliterated in the electorate in which she's standing, but even when she loses she'll still cruise into Parliament if Labour get anything over what is it, 23%?

Hope springs eternal.

cyc · 14th November 2011, 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by adonis

This is a problem that gets progressively worse the further to the right you go.

An assertion is not an argument, idiot.

adonis · 14th November 2011, 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab

Darien Fenton's going to get obliterated in the electorate in which she's standing, but even when she loses she'll still cruise into Parliament if Labour get anything over what is it, 23%?

Hope springs eternal.

Because Labour voters approve of the way Labour is run and vote for the system that put her on the list. If they didn't like it they can vote for someone else or get active within the party and change it.

Your protest against MMP isn't solved by advocating a less democratic system, it's solved by democratising the political parties themselves.

_Incubus_ · 15th November 2011, 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab

I've lived with STV on this side of the Tasman for a while, like it more than MMP.

I'm not terribly enthusiastic about the country being held to ransom by 2 independent's with some fucked up agenda's because they formed a govt with the major party that came second.

Funnily enough the first NBN roll out on mainland OZ was in one of the independents home electorate.

xor · 15th November 2011, 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by adonis

Because Labour voters approve of the way Labour is run and vote for the system that put her on the list.

Your protest against MMP isn't solved by advocating a less democratic system, it's solved by democratising the political parties themselves.[/quote]

I don't think the great electorate of Mangere of the past voted for Margaret Wilson to be so high up the labour list in the 2005 elections.

Ab · 15th November 2011, 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Incubus_

I'm not terribly enthusiastic about the country being held to ransom by 2 independent's with some fucked up agenda's because they formed a govt with the major party that came second.

Funnily enough the first NBN roll out on mainland OZ was in one of the independents home electorate.

If you don't like the outcome of the election, maybe next time around you could, you know, vote?

_Incubus_ · 15th November 2011, 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab

If you don't like the outcome of the election, maybe next time around you could, you know, vote?

Yes yes...I will become a dingo prior to the next election, I want Labor gone..they have a social engineering agenda about wealth redistribution (carbon tax) and union back scratching that makes my bile levels rise.

Whilst the coalition are by no means perfect I like the lets all just make tons of money approach.

cyc · 18th November 2011, 16:06

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10766944

God the mere thought of this cunt getting back in is making me determined to vote National now.

Rince · 18th November 2011, 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco T Bastard

Which, of course, is wrong. People voted for the party and thus the people on the party list. If they didn't like the list then they wouldn't have voted for the party.

are you 100% familiar with our favourite party's list?

I'm sure as hell not, and I'd suspect the vast (>98%) of voters would be the same......

Ab · 25th November 2011, 13:20

Interesting:

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/11/ex..._nz_first.html

fixed_truth · 25th November 2011, 18:28

Interesting - a lot of these guys seems to be voting NZ First to get them across the line. http://thestandard.org.nz/who-were-voting-for/

Some to stick it to National, some because the faint chance of a Labour Govt. involves NZ First's 6-8 seats.

Ab · 25th November 2011, 18:54

A fantastic illustration of why MMP sucks balls.

A Corpse · 25th November 2011, 18:56

Yeah, much rather we go back to straight old Red Vs Blue.

SickBo@Work · 25th November 2011, 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

Interesting - a lot of these guys seems to be voting NZ First to get them across the line.

Strong lack of morals.

Ab · 25th November 2011, 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Corpse

Yeah, much rather we go back to straight old Red Vs Blue.

You do realise it's not ONE OR THE OTHER, right?

MaZeR · 25th November 2011, 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab

A fantastic illustration of why MMP sucks balls.

So when you "strategically" voted for Act last time it was not in a similar vein?

Just asking, cause you come off a little bitter...

A Corpse · 25th November 2011, 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab

You do realise it's not ONE OR THE OTHER, right?

Theoretically? No. For all intents and purposes, yes.

I presume nobody would deny that the Greens are a very solid third, right? How many electorates would they win outright. Two? Three?

Ab · 25th November 2011, 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaZeR

So when you "strategically" voted for Act last time it was not in a similar vein?

Just asking, cause you come off a little bitter...

Feeling a little bitter and voting ACT last time kinda go together.

4th November 2011, 14:58	#1
cEvin Love In Vein	Stuff Winston Stuff did a live chat with Winston todya, read at your own peril! http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/poli...Winston-Peters

9th November 2011, 18:44	#12
A Corpse talkative lurker	Their hoardings (here in the 'tron at least) say "We win, you win". Riiiiiiight. __________________ Broke my addiction! Bye bye Eve, hello Minecraft. Wait... >_<

25th November 2011, 18:56	#35
A Corpse talkative lurker	Yeah, much rather we go back to straight old Red Vs Blue. __________________ Broke my addiction! Bye bye Eve, hello Minecraft. Wait... >_<

4th November 2011, 15:07	#2
Furry Crew	if this isn't a advertisement for why MMP is a bad bad thing thing I don't know what is... __________________ "This ain't pain I'm feeling....it's nostalgia" Visit The O-bots

4th November 2011, 15:44	#3
crocos	STV FTW! __________________ Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ ☼ N وكل يوم كنت تعيش في العبودية

4th November 2011, 17:00	#6
crocos	Supplimentary Member strikes me as a slightly watered down version of FPP FPP I have much dislike for - blatently misrepresents the actual population's voting. MMP I dislike the party list concept as it means dead-wood that can't win a seat on their own merits can get a seat simply because they're a high-ranked party member. STV means more electorates (akin to SM / FPP) and no party-list, but at least people need to win their electorate, but under the quorum rules and discard-counting of STV to ensure that it's more representative than FPP/SM Frankly I don't think there's any such thing as a perfect electoral voting mechanism. (I know there's a 5th type that's up for consideration but can't remember what I didn't like about it off hand) __________________ Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ ☼ N وكل يوم كنت تعيش في العبودية Last edited by crocos : 4th November 2011 at 17:02.

4th November 2011, 22:14	#7
cEvin Love In Vein	I think STV has potential but MMP is going to steamroll - people to afraid to research and trust something new. Anyway we're off topic - agree with fixed_truth - if he gets the votes then he deserves to represent. He doesn't seem to be promising anything too crazy (although another change of GST would be quite annoying) and he still has his trademark confidence and wit :D

4th November 2011, 23:39	#8
ilk	Isn't this as simple as "How much do you like democracy?" Are any of the proposed systems more democratic than MMP? __________________ "I choose to believe what I was programmed to believe!"

5th November 2011, 00:08	#9
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	I've lived with STV on this side of the Tasman for a while, like it more than MMP.

9th November 2011, 14:45	#11
MrTTTT	Winston is awesome. Party vote NZFirst!

10th November 2011, 03:04	#13
cyc Objection!	Cunt face Peters shows his amazing grasp of the law again: http://www.nzfirst.org.nz/press-rele...php?t=1&i=3013 "The Treaty [of Waitangi] is not a binding legal document."

14th November 2011, 20:01	#19
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	At least under STV you get to feel guilty for voting the motherfuckers in. Under MMP it's possible for a candidate to get ZERO VOTES and still make it to Parliament.

14th November 2011, 20:36	#20
chubby	^^ you getting this elections 'sorry for voting ACT' thread warmed up yet? __________________ "Take four red capsules, in ten minutes-take two more. Help is on the way."

18th November 2011, 16:06	#30
cyc Objection!	http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10766944 God the mere thought of this cunt getting back in is making me determined to vote National now.

25th November 2011, 13:20	#32
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	Interesting: http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/11/ex..._nz_first.html

25th November 2011, 18:28	#33
fixed_truth	Interesting - a lot of these guys seems to be voting NZ First to get them across the line. http://thestandard.org.nz/who-were-voting-for/ Some to stick it to National, some because the faint chance of a Labour Govt. involves NZ First's 6-8 seats. __________________ Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong.

25th November 2011, 18:54	#34
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	A fantastic illustration of why MMP sucks balls.