Union morons announce that they hate the presumption of innocence

[cyc]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike...ap-in-the-face

EPMU assistant national secretary Ged O'Connell said the union had deep concerns about what happened at Pike River and for the future direction of mine safety across the mining industry.

"It's inappropriate and a slap in the face for the mining community to have Peter Whittall advising mine management on safety while the Department of Labour case against him is still pending."

In practical terms, I am unconvinced that Whittal's company will be overflowing with business but it's alarming to hear such ludicrous sentiments being expressed. For the concept of presumption of innocence to have any meaning, Whittal must be free to carry on any lawful business he pleases. After all, do the union ratbags propose to subsidise his living?

Oh wait, I forgot that our typical unions specialise in imposing costs and expropriating things out of people without offering anything in return. Silly me.

[Ab]

Why is it that 90% of the union officials I see in the media are fat poms in their fifties?

[cyc]

Well, I can't explain the pom part but the fatness is probably self-explanatory.

[madmaxii]

They're the sons of the fat Poms that came out for 10 quid in the 50's and proceeded to bring their work practices with them.

[cyc]

Originally Posted by madmaxii

They're the sons of the fat Poms that came out for 10 quid in the 50's and proceeded to bring their work practices with them.

Fat British unionists on how to make friends and influence people: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news...ectid=10782407

Olympic organisers have some travel advice for the millions of people who work and live in London: Be patient. Have a beer. Work from home.

...

Even as London Mayor Boris Johnson tried to focus attention on the positive, transport officials had to bat back demands by the Rail, Maritime and Transport union for more money. Union officials say subway staff are not being offered enough to compensate them for working more hours and erratic schedules during the Summer Olympics.

...

Souring the big launch was the rail union's announcement that subway train drivers considered a one-time payment of around 500 pounds (NZ$955) inadequate.

Nothing is ever enough for fucking union scum.

[MrTTTT]

if it wasn't for union scum a bunch of rights you have now that you take for granted possibly would not exist!

i agree that the above article is retarded on the unions part though.

but it seems more that you are just ideologically opposed to them because you're a white middle-class self-important CUNT

[GM]

Both parties are self-important cunts, it's an upper middle class affliction with symptoms such as: fatness, SUV ownership and the inability to indicate when driving.

[CCS]

Originally Posted by MrTTTT

if it wasn't for union scum a bunch of rights you have now that you take for granted possibly would not exist!

That was years and years and years ago when we actually needed unions and employers were all evil moustache-twirling villains. All unions do these days is give each other golden showers. They're largely irrelevant.

[fixed_truth]

imo Unions should be judged individuality and on the outcomes of their actions.

Eg my experience with the PSA has been highly positive ie their collective bargaining and their acting on your behalf if any top managers are being dicks.

[CCS]

You get in on that golden shower action, huh?

[adonis]

Originally Posted by CCS

That was years and years and years ago when we actually needed unions and employers were all evil moustache-twirling villains. All unions do these days is give each other golden showers. They're largely irrelevant.

Tell that to the families of those who died at Pike river, if the neolibs hadn't gutted unions here during the 90's safety standards would have been quite different.

Do you know what the biggest differences between the Aus and NZ economy are? Firstly Aus digs up a lot of minerals and proceeds to tax the fuck out of it. Secondly, the strength of their unions.

During the 80's/90's neolib revolution we stripped workers of their rights, Aus retained theirs, and's that's a big part of the reason they're so far ahead of us. It's idiotic right wingers who think paying workers less will lead to greater productivity that has us so far behind now. Greater profitability for shareholders doesn't equate to greater productivity for the country as a whole.

[[Malks] Pixie]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

imo Unions should be judged individuality and on the outcomes of their actions.

Eg my experience with the PSA has been highly positive ie their collective bargaining and their acting on your behalf if any top managers are being dicks.

Really? The PSA? Are you serious. They couldn't find their arsehole if someone gave them a map and compass. I've been working in government departments for a lot of my working life and every time the PSA has become involved in something it's turned into a train wreck. I'm certainly not anti-union but I am anti-PSA based on their track record and my experience with them and my observations of other I know who have been fucked over by them. If any union can be labelled as self-serving cunts, it's the PSA. Fuck even the other unions think they're bunch of incompetent wankers.

Pixie

[Ab]

Originally Posted by adonis

During the 80's/90's neolib revolution we stripped workers of their rights, Aus retained theirs, and's that's a big part of the reason they're so far ahead of us.

Please list the "workers' rights" stripped from NZ workers and retained by Australian workers that are such a big part of the reason why Australia is so far ahead of NZ.

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by [Malks] Pixie

Really? The PSA? Are you serious.

That's interesting. No complain of product here (Allied Health - South Island).

Though maybe my experience is not the norm. Apart from my own anecdotal observation there doesn't seem to be a lot to make a safe generalisation on (an independent audit would be good) apart from it being New Zealand's largest voluntary association.

[madmaxii]

Originally Posted by adonis

During the 80's/90's neolib revolution we stripped workers of their rights, Aus retained theirs, and's that's a big part of the reason they're so far ahead of us. It's idiotic right wingers who think paying workers less will lead to greater productivity that has us so far behind now. Greater profitability for shareholders doesn't equate to greater productivity for the country as a whole.

As Ab asked - expand please.

Or are you spending so much time looking at the reflection of Adonis that you don't see the real world behind you?

[adonis]

Originally Posted by Ab

Please list the "workers' rights" stripped from NZ workers and retained by Australian workers that are such a big part of the reason why Australia is so far ahead of NZ.

The obvious one to point out is the fact that workplace safety in mines is overseen by union officials instead of a government department, something National imposed in the 90's.

[crocos]

Originally Posted by adonis

The obvious one to point out is the fact that workplace safety in mines is overseen by union officials instead of a government department, something National imposed in the 90's.

Are you really that deluded as to think that is a worker's rights issue? It's certainly a poor example of policy-setting, but it doesn't in any way change the right to a safe workplace.

[adonis]

Originally Posted by crocos

Are you really that deluded as to think that is a worker's rights issue? It's certainly a poor example of policy-setting, but it doesn't in any way change the right to a safe workplace.

It took me a few moments to comprehend this.. it seemed a bit contradictory. Are you saying that I'm deluded if I don't draw a line between rights and how rights are implemented? Surely it's still a rights issue? I suspect I'd refer to a lot of things as 'rights' that you would not.

I'm not willing to argue over semantics, I suggest you attempt to look at the underlying meaning rather than instigate a useless existential argument.

[crocos]

Originally Posted by adonis

It took me a few moments to comprehend this.. it seemed a bit contradictory. Are you saying that I'm deluded if I don't draw a line between rights and how rights are implemented? Surely it's still a rights issue? I suspect I'd refer to a lot of things as 'rights' that you would not.

I'm not willing to argue over semantics, I suggest you attempt to look at the underlying meaning rather than instigate a useless existential argument.

Wait: You said that they had rights removed from them. They didn't. You still haven't actually said at ANY point where rights were revoked/removed.

I agree the safety issues at Pikes Creek are partially a rights issue, but not because of any LACK of those rights.

Also: Any additional rights that Australian mining workers may have been granted vs New Zealand mining workers, while still a rights issue, is not the same as having those rights stripped.

[crocos]

PS: Replace the word "lack" with "removal", Ta

[adonis]

The right that was removed in this instance was the right to have these safety issues overseen by an organisation that's directly controlled by the people affected by them. The 'right', very broadly, comes under the banner of self-determination, and by lumping these concerns in with central government it was effectively removed from workers.

It isn't just a matter of the right to have a safe workplace, it's a matter of having the right to control how safety in the workplace is maintained. That's what unions once provided here (not too long ago actually), and what they still provide in Aus.

[aR Que]

your rights and how they are inforced are different things...

[[Malks] Pixie]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

That's interesting. No complain of product here (Allied Health - South Island).

Fair enough - I've had to deal with them through a number of jobs (MFish, MinEd, MoRST, ERMANZ) and they've been consistently been terrible. It may be that being in Wellington means they're more interested in the politics than actually supporting public service workers like they're meant to. However (and again this may be a Wellington thing) not one other person who I know who works, or has worked, in the public service has anything nice to say about them.

Pixie

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Ab

Please list the "workers' rights" stripped from NZ workers and retained by Australian workers that are such a big part of the reason why Australia is so far ahead of NZ.

Originally Posted by adonis

The obvious one to point out is the fact that workplace safety in mines is overseen by union officials instead of a government department, something National imposed in the 90's.

Seriously? You think Australia outperforms NZ economically because of which entity oversees workplace safety in mines?

[_Incubus_]

Errr what???I dont think I have ever seen a union official in Australia at either of the 4 mines I have spent time at. They get paid way too well to be bothered with those assclowns

Safety here is something the individual manager/CEO can sit inside a jail for..so most mines have a huge focus on safety. Workplace deaths look bad in the press, costs lots of money, and slow production...something no mine wants.

[fidgit]

Originally Posted by _Incubus_

Errr what???I dont think I have ever seen a union official in Australia at either of the 4 mines I have spent time at. They get paid way too well to be bothered with those assclowns

Safety here is something the individual manager/CEO can sit inside a jail for..so most mines have a huge focus on safety. Workplace deaths look bad in the press, costs lots of money, and slow production...something no mine wants.

The HSE Act allows for people to be sent to jail and/or fined here too. If all the claims being made about the wanton lack of consideration for the health and safety on their employees bare out, it would seem the DOL would most likely be able to successfully prosecute the company or key people that were running things.

So really, there's no difference in that regard.