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View Poll Results: Which electoral system gets your vote?
Mixed-Member Proportional (MMP) 22 45.83%
Single Transferable Vote (STV) 16 33.33%
Supplementary Member (SM) 4 8.33%
Preferential Voting (PV) 1 2.08%
First Past the Post (FPP) 1 2.08%
I don't know what all this shit means 4 8.33%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 31st October 2011, 12:05     #41
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
Voting someone in is just the illusion of choice, since there are many things which contribute to the decision that the MP makes - I don't think that "democratically representing my electorate" comes to mind. When was the last time your MP asked you personally about a particular issue and told you he'd vote based on the replies he/she received? A token letter around election time asking what issues you consider important doesn't count...
Hang about: Your electorate MP isn't there to ask you individually what you want. They are there to be available FOR you to express any views you feel strongly enough - it's up to you to approach your MP (even if you didn't vote for them) to make your views heard. That is part of your rights as a citizen/resident. If you can get others in your electorate also passionate about the issue, approaching the MP as a group to present a coherent opinion gives additional credence to the opinion, so the MP is more likely to act on it.

You only get out what you put in.
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Last edited by crocos : 31st October 2011 at 12:06.
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Old 31st October 2011, 14:36     #42
adonis
 
Pretty good article on this - http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10762663
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Old 31st October 2011, 19:57     #43
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
Democracy is about nothing beyond the type of method used to appoint people to represent the various communities making up a nation.

Democracy is not about everyone, or really anyone, particularly having a say about anything. To imagine otherwise is a child's fantasy.

This is why it's necessary to choose who you vote for carefully. Since, politicians can and will do as they please once in the hot seat.
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Old 22nd November 2011, 19:41     #44
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 


http://www.voteforchange.org.nz/
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Old 22nd November 2011, 19:53     #45
crocos
 
I'd like to see larger electorates, divided by approx population size, so that each electorate was responsible for, say, 10 seats (12 electorates total), and you need to rank your top 8 or 10 candidates.

Then an STV like approach of winnowing out the bottom-ranked candidates until you've got just the 10 for your electorate.

Seems around as proportional as MMP, while getting rid of the chaff that is the party-list.

It seems most people would hate it though. Actually needing to think about your vote? *shock* *horror*
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Last edited by crocos : 22nd November 2011 at 19:54.
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Old 22nd November 2011, 23:45     #46
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Teapot
Democracy is about nothing beyond the type of method used to appoint people to represent the various communities making up a nation.
Actually, that's a representative democracy, which is not the same as the concept of "democracy", but a particular instance of a pseudo-democratic system. To give up on true democracy because we don't already have it is pretty weak, even if you personally think it's inconceivable.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 06:27     #47
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
Okay, democracy as it exists in every country that has ever tried such a system.

A direct democracy is a theoretical construct that can not ever exist for a group of more than a handful of people.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 06:39     #48
Jodi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Teapot
A direct democracy is a theoretical construct that can not ever exist for a group of more than a handful of people.
Switzerland?
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Old 23rd November 2011, 06:53     #49
pervy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jodi
Switzerland?
Hey if GT says it's a theoretical construct it's a theoretical construct, reality be damned!
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Old 23rd November 2011, 07:42     #50
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jodi
Switzerland?
Nope, because what they do doesn't actually achieve direct democracy.

Last edited by Golden Teapot : 23rd November 2011 at 07:43.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 07:47     #51
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pervy
Hey if GT says it's a theoretical construct it's a theoretical construct, reality be damned!
That's right - there is no need for debate on factual material. Of course, the ability of some to appreciate the facts is limited and thus an attempt at debate may be initiated but why participate where their time would be better spent at school?
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Old 23rd November 2011, 08:29     #52
pervy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Teapot
Nope, because what they do doesn't actually achieve direct democracy.
Ahhh so now you're re-defining direct democracy. Clearly you are the go to man for this (as you are for everything else ever posted on NZG).

Seriously though does your every post have to seethe with arrogance? Does the word humility exist in that overarching vocabulary of yours?
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Old 23rd November 2011, 08:47     #53
[Malks] Pixie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pervy
Ahhh so now you're re-defining direct democracy.
No he's not. Switzerland is clearly a composite system which has some strong elements of direct democracy but still has elements of parlimentary democracy within it's system.

As such he is right, the system that Switzerland has does not achieve direct democracy - it enacts some degree of individual representation but is still a composite system.

Pixie
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Old 23rd November 2011, 10:13     #54
Jodi
 
Hmm, reading up on direct democracy (DD) it seems it's not actually a good idea. Switzerland uses double majority to deal with the failings of DD. Pretty much as if in the US the congress was a DD, but the senate still existed (or if GB parliment was DD, but it kept the house of lords).

So yea, GT was right. DD is theoretical, and any culture that got close to implementing it had severe government issues due to DD's failings.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 13:18     #55
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crocos
I'd like to see larger electorates, divided by approx population size, so that each electorate was responsible for, say, 10 seats (12 electorates total), and you need to rank your top 8 or 10 candidates.

Then an STV like approach of winnowing out the bottom-ranked candidates until you've got just the 10 for your electorate.

Seems around as proportional as MMP, while getting rid of the chaff that is the party-list.

It seems most people would hate it though. Actually needing to think about your vote? *shock* *horror*
That's not far from being STV itself.

STV is the clear winner for me out of the contending options in the referendum, and it's the one for which I'll be voting.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 13:34     #56
GM
 
I'm jumping on that bandwagon - STV vote for me.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 13:43     #57
fixed_truth
 
STV would be my second choice (because it's less proportional than MMP) behind addressing some of the flaws of MMP.

There's also the possibility that a vote to change from MMP might result in something even less desirable ie SM which 'vote for change' has lobbied for. (edit: or would there then be a referendum between MMP & SM in this scenario?)
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Last edited by fixed_truth : 23rd November 2011 at 13:48.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 15:36     #58
HO-Hoon
 
PV for me. Minnow parties need to be voted the fuck out of parliament. UF, ACT and NZF can all fuck off. Greens next time around.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 15:43     #59
Furry Crew
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HO-Hoon
PV for me. Minnow parties need to be voted the fuck out of parliament. UF, ACT and NZF can all fuck off. Greens next time around.
Unfortunately I think the Greens will always have a presence in parliament now unless the voting system turns into FPP. There will always be a ~10% tree hugger proportion in New Zealand. I don't even think that's a bad thing at all.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 15:48     #60
adonis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crocos
Seems around as proportional as MMP
Except it isn't.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 16:49     #61
Rince
SLUTS!!!!!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crocos
It seems most people would hate it though. Actually needing to think about your vote? *shock* *horror*
unfortunately, this.

too much effort for some/most people
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Old 23rd November 2011, 19:30     #62
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pervy
Ahhh so now you're re-defining direct democracy.
No, I'm using the misguided definition used here countless dozens of times. If I didn't I'd have to start with a definition first.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 19:36     #63
cEvin
Love In Vein
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by adonis
Except it isn't.
this
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Old 23rd November 2011, 21:04     #64
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rince
unfortunately, this.

too much effort for some/most people
I love being super-picky at voting time under STV over here in Oz. I like that I can issue such direct instructions to the system as to how I want my vote counted.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 21:08     #65
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
I voted for STV the first time around. I will do the same this time around.
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Old 24th November 2011, 17:17     #66
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
What's your voting-method-referendum vote? (Nov 2011 edition)

Boobs: still great
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Old 24th November 2011, 19:23     #67
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Boobs: still great
I feel you may have understated things.
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Old 24th November 2011, 22:40     #68
Delphinus
 
Why do you even need electorates? Its not like your local MP does much that is specific to the local community (except around election time). I'd just prefer to vote party only, and the % of votes they get determines the % of their party in parliament.
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Old 25th November 2011, 06:53     #69
[Malks] Pixie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphinus
Why do you even need electorates? Its not like your local MP does much that is specific to the local community (except around election time). I'd just prefer to vote party only, and the % of votes they get determines the % of their party in parliament.
I can understand that perception but quite a few MP's do do significant work for helping their local community - it's just that those cases rarely get reported on and are only evident to those who have been helped. When I was working as a public servant (in various departments) I dealt with a number of MP's regional offices in helping solving issues for their local residents when they were getting the short end of the stick from government departments.

Pixie
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Old 25th November 2011, 08:28     #70
Evoke
 
i agree with delphinus. I want a system that doesn't have the electorate vote. seems unfair for people that happen to live in electorates 'staffed' by useless candidates. my electorate doesn't even have all parties candidates in it.
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Old 25th November 2011, 08:55     #71
Saladin
Nothing to See Here!
 
Reckon pure proportianal, but with electorate offices dolled out after the vote is tallied..

e.g. Nat and Labour win 75%/25% of the popular vote, so Lab MPs get assigned to the 25% of the seats with the biggest labour margins, or the smallest Nat margins.

Have more MPs than electorates, so that you don't get stuck with a party leader etc that's never there but not so many that you have useless list MPs with no responsibilities. The number could change dynamically after the election based on how many parties get in and how many "reserved list" spots you give each party.

Have a recall vote system in place where you can dump your assigned MP if he's useless, and they gets replaced with another from the same party list
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Old 25th November 2011, 09:19     #72
Evoke
 
alternatively, i want the option to vote for an MP from any electorate, not just my own. Why should geographic location matter? eg. Garreth Hughes looked like he knew what he was talking about during the 'skynet' bill debates, but I'd never vote for the Greens...
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Old 25th November 2011, 09:52     #73
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
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Old 25th November 2011, 10:00     #74
ZoSo
 
Center-right and right leaning voters who are still unsure, don't make the mistake of sticking with MMP. As the right wing blogger WO keeps saying, there's a reason the left and religious/delusionals want to keep MMP, it's because without a hugely popular leader like John Key, the right is more than likely fucked 2014+, without decent coalition partners.

Hell maybe even 2011

Vote for change and either STV/SM.
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Old 25th November 2011, 10:57     #75
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
If you think Winston Peters is a positive influence on NZ politics, vote to keep MMP.

If you think the Key/Banks cup-of-tea soap opera is a normal and necessary part of deciding the direction of the country, vote to keep MMP.
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Old 25th November 2011, 13:29     #76
Cyberbob
 
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Old 25th November 2011, 17:05     #77
Delphinus
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Malks] Pixie
I can understand that perception but quite a few MP's do do significant work for helping their local community

I dealt with a number of MP's regional offices in helping solving issues for their local residents when they were getting the short end of the stick from government departments
I'm not against having a local MP's office, I think that is a great idea, able to provide the above support, just don't want to limit who I can vote for based on who is local.

I assume that the local MP is decided by the FPP method of counting, Ie winner takes all? If you're voting for one of the "smaller" guys, even though they might be fantastic, if they don't win the whole electorate it feels like a wasted vote, resulting in voting for the most popular MP who is opposite to the one I hate the most.
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Old 25th November 2011, 17:35     #78
fixed_truth
 
Final poll shows MMP holding its strong lead
Quote:
Two days before the referendum, voter opinion still appears to be well on the side of MMP.

The latest Herald-DigiPoll survey shows 54.4 per cent of voters want to keep the current electoral system, and 35 per cent want to change.

The results are in line with previous polls, which have consistently shown a preference for keeping MMP.
Niiiice
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Old 26th November 2011, 00:52     #79
cEvin
Love In Vein
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
If you think Winston Peters is a positive influence on NZ politics, vote to keep MMP.

If you think the Key/Banks cup-of-tea soap opera is a normal and necessary part of deciding the direction of the country, vote to keep MMP.
If you think voters should be equally represented in parliament vote to keep MMP.

With some changes it can be more effective and fair.
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Old 26th November 2011, 15:04     #80
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cEvin

With some changes it can be more effective and fair.
Agreed. And the only way YOU get to have input into those changes is if you vote AGAINST its current implementation. If you vote in support of MMP today any changes made to it will be made by politicians to suit their own ends, with no requirement to consult the public.
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