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Old 11th February 2011, 17:47     #161
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Well, this is the only place I'm getting that feedback.

And it only seems certain kinds of discussions result in that feedback. AND only in discussions with a handful of people.
And...?
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Old 11th February 2011, 18:33     #162
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Although, I don't know why you think I should read it in context of what you quoted.
A section that might interest you explores the difference in behavior that people exhibit as the theater is changed.

And, it's a good book too - I'd be inclined to suggest everyone read it.
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Old 11th February 2011, 20:23     #163
crocos
 
I don't care if he's intelekchullie corrupt or not.

I just get sick of the "ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME!" style of "arguing" that happens. It's just attention-seeking - the argument is just a vehicle for attracting attention. However Lightspeed isn't the only one guilty of that self-indulgent vice, just one of the most obvious.
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Old 12th February 2011, 10:20     #164
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiQ
It would be hard to accept that explanation, because I calmly and rationally consider you to be intellectually dishonest myself, but I naturally can't rule out your explanation, because I don't know your friends or your relationship with them.

Considering your explanation of why your friends haven't told you they think you're intellectually dishonest does raise the spectre of further alternatives, of course, and they're unflattering, but we can stick with the those each of us has suggested if you prefer, just to clinch the dishonesty
I guess I could take you more seriously if the bulk of the people who are making these accusations weren't those who habitually disagree with me or my perspective.

My general rule is I pay little heed to feedback from people who can't give me both positive and critical feedback. I still pay attention, but I balance the feedback against those who appear to know how to tell me what's what.

Besides, I think CCS has clearly demonstrated what intellectual dishonesty actually is, but gets away with it.

As I earlier pointed out, "some think" becomes "everyone knows". I suggest he "invokes", he reflects that back as "forces". Surely this is intellectual dishonesty?

I'm not sure how I can change to fit into the group culture when the rules of the group appear to me as completely arbitrary.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 12th February 2011 at 10:21.
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Old 12th February 2011, 12:50     #165
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
So, quod erat demonstrandum by your own hand.
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Old 12th February 2011, 12:59     #166
cyc
Objection!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
My general rule is I pay little heed to feedback from people who can't give me both positive and critical feedback. I still pay attention, but I balance the feedback against those who appear to know how to tell me what's what.
ME! ME! ME! ME! ME!

Yawn. Not everyone lives to kiss your ass, lolspeed. It's hard to give any positive feedback when you behave as though the general rules of argumentation doesn't apply to you. That becomes even harder when you consistently feign not making accusations/assertions by expressing such things as rhetorical questions without ever intending to defend or offer proof as to your underlying points.
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Old 12th February 2011, 13:36     #167
Lightspeed
 
See, I can take that feedback, because it's quite specific rather than a term that's typically used in a derogatory tone.

You're right, I do use questions and it's often pretty lame. As such, I try not to use it in genuine discussion. Sometimes I fail. But feedback outside the forum from NZGamers tells me I'm getting better.

However, when it comes to assholes like CCS who blatantly warp people's arguments (I'll point again to using absolutes) and are generally vitriolic, what the fuck does it matter what argumentative style one uses? It's just a pissing contest anyways.
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Old 12th February 2011, 20:20     #168
chiQ
Frag-muff
 
Well, Lightspeed, you can take my view that you are intellectually dishonest as a considered and genuine one.

I've done it, noticed it, and fixed it. Life got better. Please at least consider it as a possibility and try to avoid it.
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Old 12th February 2011, 22:39     #169
Bent
 
What, lightspeed isn't just a mega troll? Mind boggled!
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Old 13th February 2011, 07:56     #170
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiQ
Well, Lightspeed, you can take my view that you are intellectually dishonest as a considered and genuine one.

I've done it, noticed it, and fixed it. Life got better. Please at least consider it as a possibility and try to avoid it.
Great, so lets get back to talking about whether or not any particular group of people in NZ need to have less kids.
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Old 13th February 2011, 09:34     #171
xor
 
8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8= ==D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8=== D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~ 8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8= ==D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8=== D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~ 8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8= ==D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8=== D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~ 8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8= ==D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~8===D~
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Old 4th March 2011, 09:12     #172
ZoSo
 
WTH. Respect just went up for Hillary. Tis so true. AJE is like the old BBC/CNN.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_830890.html
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Old 4th March 2011, 14:30     #173
fixed_truth
 
lol @ the 'AJE sux it doen't even report on Charlie Sheen' comments.
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Old 5th March 2011, 19:02     #174
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoSo
WTH. Respect just went up for Hillary. Tis so true. AJE is like the old BBC/CNN.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_830890.html
Holy crap, I never realised Al Jazeera had such a sweet online service.
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Old 5th March 2011, 22:09     #175
cyc
Objection!
 
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10710379

Oh yay, so we have a young career politician in parliament. What's his guy ever done other than chasing seats in the local body elections?
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Old 5th March 2011, 22:45     #176
Saladin
Nothing to See Here!
 
Pansy Wong was much hotter, but even she is no Melissa Lee!
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Old 9th March 2011, 20:30     #177
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
By the virtue of being female is not a high hurdle to pass.
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Old 12th March 2011, 10:34     #178
fixed_truth
 
Look what Judith Collins said now. Whoops I meant Phil Goff.
http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-sto...ooters-a-joke/
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Old 15th March 2011, 22:42     #179
chubby
 
Wink

Quote:
Just as Labour are the party of humourless, tuneless harridans after their “John the Gambler” song at the 2008 annual conference, and the Greens are the party of morris dancing hippies because of their 2001 annual conference, the fundamental take-away here is that ACT is the party who laughs at genocide jokes.
http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2011/03/...ed-preference/
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Old 16th March 2011, 00:16     #180
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
LOOK I FUCKING SAID I WAS SORRY ALRIGHT? Fuck.
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Old 16th March 2011, 08:02     #181
A Corpse
talkative lurker
 
Fucking Aussies always meddling...
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Old 16th March 2011, 12:03     #182
Jodi
 
Hmm, I feel like I'm repeating myself, but I don't want to vote for any of the parties as they piss me off one way or another.

I think I'll vote for whoever gets the central rail loop for Auckland happening, and then complain about everything else they do (which will be stupid).
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Old 16th March 2011, 12:05     #183
Saladin
Nothing to See Here!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jodi
I think I'll vote for whoever gets the central rail loop for Auckland happening, and then complain about everything else they do (which will be stupid).
Sounds like you need to vote Green - they'd get the rail loop done, and give you tonnes of other stuff to complain about as well
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Old 16th March 2011, 12:43     #184
ZoSo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saladin
Sounds like you need to vote Green - they'd get the rail loop done
New(er) Tui Ad?

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Old 16th March 2011, 22:43     #185
fixed_truth
 
But wait . . . there's more

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/poli...s-on-Foreshore
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Old 17th March 2011, 23:02     #186
cyc
Objection!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
LOOK I FUCKING SAID I WAS SORRY ALRIGHT? Fuck.
KILLING MAORIS IS FUNNY. HE HE HE
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Old 20th March 2011, 02:47     #187
chubby
 
Cheesy grin

Quote:
2011 is shaping up to be a most unhappy year. The seemingly endless parade of human misery caused by the three C’s–calamity, catastrophe and chaos– got me to thinking about which is “worse:” human-caused or natural disasters?

The answer lies in the response. In natural disasters the majority of people band together to work together for the common purpose of overcoming individual and collective hardship and tragedy in pursuit of the common goal of re-establishing normality to the lives. The solidarity exhibited during such times is born of the realisation that nature is a force that cannot be controlled and that no blame can be attributed to it or anything else. It just is, and we live at its mercy. If societies are to thrive, the only response to natural disasters has to be social union and commonality of purpose.

Human disasters, on the other hand, tend to bring out the worst in people. In fact, they are often the product of and the motivation for human cruelty, opportunism and greed. Unlike natural disasters, which are indiscriminate in application, human disasters are discriminate and often deliberate (because even negligence affects some more than others given socio-economic, political and cultural demographics). War and genocide are extreme expressions of human disaster, but the reach of malfeasance is vast and wide. Think of the looting that followed the Iraq occupation or pro-democracy protests in Cairo. Or the cynical use of false information supplied to ISAF forces to settle personal vendettas in Afghanistan. Or the wave of drug-related murders in Mexico (over 35,000 in the last five years) that rides on the back of poverty, ignorance and an unwillingness by consuming societies to recognise the demand aspect of the equation. The same willful blindness and self-serving logics applies to human sex trafficking in SE Asia, which leaves a terrible toll of human and social costs in its wake but which is allowed, even encouraged, by states simply because it channels sexual predation to foreign localised areas (such as Thailand, which is the recipient of well-advertised sex tours from countries such as Japan and Germany). Then there are the corporate disasters ranging from the tobacco industry’s lying about the effects of smoking to lax safety regulations at chemical plants in places like Bophal to the manipulation of financial derivatives by bankers that produced the global financial crisis of 2008-present and which exacted a terrible toll in lost jobs, lost homes and, in some countries, lost public benefits imposed by austerity measures prescribed by the very people who caused the crisis in the first place.

If my view is correct then the answer is clear: human disasters are “worse” than natural disasters.

But there is another scenario that brings the worst of both together: where human folly has magnified the impact of a negative natural event. That may be the case in Japan. If it turns out that concerns about nuclear safety standards were ignored or covered up by power company operators in the years before this year’s earthquake and tsunami, and/or that they are currently downplaying the gravity of the situation in an effort to save face, then the current nuclear crisis is a human add-on to what otherwise is a terrible but surmountable natural disaster. The same is true if it turns out that the supposedly “earthquake-proof” buildings in countries with known fault lines have not been built to code due to corruption or cost-cutting (this is especially true for states located with the Ring of Fire earthquake zone and Central Asia where such standards, if they exist, are haphazardly enforced). I use these two examples because they are in the news at present, but the list of instances where human failures worsened the negative impact of a natural event is long. As for the bible-bashers who place blame on victimised societies because of their supposed failures to adhere to God’s teachings: the less said the better, but they too add unnecessary suffering to those already in distress.

In sum, it seems to me that natural disasters are tragedies for which humanity is socially hard-wried to cope. Human disasters are worse because they promote self-centred advantage-taking, meanness and division rather than solidarity and unity. Human and natural disasters combined are the most calamitous of all because the presence of the former compounds and exacerbates the problem while making more difficult a common response to the latter.

All of which is to say, if I have to spin the disaster wheel given where I live, I bet on natural causes and prepare accordingly (easier to do in NZ than in SG, which is another reason to return home). However, should I ever again live in a conflict zone or where corporate and/or political corruption abounds (and that could well be most of the world), then I will hedge my bets with a human disaster contingency plan as well.
http://www.kiwipolitico.com/
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Old 20th March 2011, 13:01     #188
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Despite being born in Auckland, she is not entitled to free healthcare as her parents, who are still in the process of applying for residency, are not New Zealand citizens.
The family are facing a bill of up to $200,000 for Peta's operations, therapy and other medical expenses.
Wtf?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10713496


Oh, I see. Thanks . . . Labour
Quote:
A law change in early 2006 means she is deemed to have the same immigration status as the most favourable status of either of her parents at the time she was born.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10712439
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Old 20th March 2011, 13:34     #189
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Fair enough.
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Old 20th March 2011, 14:20     #190
Lightspeed
 
It does make sense really... otherwise you could have a situation where you could legally deport parents but not children.
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Old 20th March 2011, 14:40     #191
A Corpse
talkative lurker
 
Or foreigners visiting purely to have kids born here and get free medical care for them.

Edit: If you have a problem with that policy, why not start a collection to pay for those medical bills?
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Old 20th March 2011, 15:37     #192
cyc
Objection!
 
[quote=A Corpse]Or foreigners visiting purely to have kids born here and get free medical care for them.

[quote]

The only trouble with that immigration policy generally is that it actually violates an international agreement that NZ signed up to and purportedly supports. But I doubt you're intelligent enough to understand why that might be a bad thing. That amendment introduced by Labour could in some circumstances leave a child stateless.
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Old 20th March 2011, 17:05     #193
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
But I doubt you're intelligent enough to understand why that might be a bad thing.[/quote]
Then we shall forever live in ignorance!
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Old 20th March 2011, 18:15     #194
fixed_truth
 
Of course we want taxpayer money to be spent responsibly, but we're talking about the interests of a child which was born in New Zealand and so is automatically a New Zealand citizen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Corpse
If you have a problem with that policy, why not start a collection to pay for those medical bills?
The article was mostly about people's generous response to hearing about the families situation.
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Old 20th March 2011, 20:45     #195
::Shocker
 
The child is not a New Zealand citizen by birth. Read this.

Last edited by ::Shocker : 20th March 2011 at 20:48.
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Old 20th March 2011, 21:14     #196
fixed_truth
 
You're right I wrote that wrong, the child was born after 2006 so doesn't qualify.

I can see some value in discouraging people from abusing the system by coming here "solely to give birth" in order to gain citizenship benefits. But I don't think that getting meningococcal disease at age three is a an example of this and I hope that the parents get citizenship.
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Old 20th March 2011, 23:34     #197
cyc
Objection!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
I can see some value in discouraging people from abusing the system by coming here "solely to give birth" in order to gain citizenship benefits. But I don't think that getting meningococcal disease at age three is a an example of this and I hope that the parents get citizenship.
In any event there's hardly any need to introduce the very draconian law which Labour did to deter most of the "coming here solely to give birth" types or there are better solutions than what Labour chose. To deter "holidaymakers" of this ilk, the country can deny entry to very heavily pregnant women unless they provide evidence that they can meet a certain level of costs associated with the child should the child suddenly pop out whilst mummy is in NZ.

With those on work visas, make it a condition that someone who falls pregnant has to leave NZ to give birth or risk losing their work permit. Of course, none of these things ought to apply to, for example, genuine refugees. It's far better to accept a few kids who appear "unwelcomed" in NZ as NZ citizens automatically rather than risk the political football of arguing over whether "Hey look, if [insert the name of some horrible country that the parents might be from] would accept your kid, he/she would not be stateless and thus he/she does not need NZ citizenship!" applies. And the country actually can live up to its frankly faked image of being caring and concerned about vulnerable members of humanity.
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Old 21st March 2011, 00:49     #198
ipee
 
So a 3yo girl with meningitis, who was born in the cook islands, and has never set foot in nz, and whose parents, who incidently are Niuen, who also have never set foot in nz, can receive free medical care but a 3yo girl with meningitis, born in nz, to parents who currently live in nz, legally i might add, and who has lived her entire life in nz...........has to pay?

Then i read this from the NZ Internal Affairs website:

Quote:
Why were the changes made?
The Government chose to amend the Citizenship Act 1977 to recognise the value of New Zealand citizenship.
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Old 21st March 2011, 08:15     #199
A Corpse
talkative lurker
 
Sounds like a few people in this thread need to run for public office.
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Old 21st March 2011, 10:07     #200
cyc
Objection!
 
A few people in this thread just have a bit more social conscience than you.
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