Where to now for Labour?

[Ab]

Muppetry continues, because labour

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/abso...y-idea-6315588

[pxpx]

Fucking trannies.

[Lightspeed]

National refuse to help even children in poverty, of course it seems nuts.

[pxpx]

I spose since we are spending all the money on flags instead of kids we can spend money on trannies instead of cancer.

[Lightspeed]

Probably a lot more instances of cancer than need for gender reassignment.

I do think Labour are being overly sophisticated and progressive in this regard. It's not an issue people can easily grasp and there are too many simplistic judgements around about gender and various gender related issues.

[crocos]

Why is this even a thing? Some muppets in the Labour party, but not any of the MPs, came up with a hair-brained idea, a journalist overheard and asked a few actual people, found it wasn't actually a real thing and tried to make a half-arsed story about it anyway.

Although Andrew Little's comment was a bit stupid.

None of this is about gender reassignment, it's all about a journo trying to manufacture a story that doesn't really exist to make a Name for themselves.

[pxpx]

Originally Posted by crocos

Why is this even a thing? Some muppet in the party, but not one of the MPs, came up with a hair-brained idea

Not one muppet, many muppets.

Originally Posted by crocos

Although Andrew Little's comment was a bit stupid.

As was Shearer's, Nash's and Robertson's.

[Spink]

The one news piece on it last week suggested that there's only one doctor in nz even capable of doing it. I don't think making it free would do anything but grow the waiting list. Anyone with an iota more sense than dollars is going overseas for it anyway.

[Pimp-X]

My view on it - how many of these surgeries were being performed 50 years ago? How many needed to be performed? Exactly.

Gender is now a first world problem, apparently. Let's spend tax payers money on it IMMEDIATELY.

Whatever pills the left has been taking, they can keep 'em to 'emselves.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Pimp-X

My view on it - how many of these surgeries were being performed 50 years ago? How many needed to be performed? Exactly.

It sounds like you're suggesting human life, our societies, the world and universe we live in are static things, never changing.

I think we are still in the hangover of now outdated scientific models over century old, back when we thought everything could be accurately observed, defined and measured. On was always on, off was always off, men were always men, women were always women. We of course know better now.

That plus a couple of world wars where everything had to be fitted into the right box and voila, the crazy world we live in where some people are all turned upside down and back-to-front because the world has tried to jam them into a box which they just don't fit.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by crocos

Why is this even a thing? Some muppets in the Labour party, but not any of the MPs, came up with a hair-brained idea, a journalist overheard and asked a few actual people, found it wasn't actually a real thing and tried to make a half-arsed story about it anyway.

Although Andrew Little's comment was a bit stupid.

None of this is about gender reassignment, it's all about a journo trying to manufacture a story that doesn't really exist to make a Name for themselves.

1. nobody in the organisation thought to say "hey guys, people want to know we're working on ways to help ordinary Kiwis with the things that matter to them and you know this will hit the paper, put that shit away"

2. nobody in the organisation thought to say to its high-profile MPs "hey guys, we're throwing around some ideas and you might get asked about free gender reassignment surgery, just a heads-up so you can have decent responses prepared"

Because those are things that grown-up real political parties would do.

[Lightspeed]

That's really an indictment of our political process as much as it is for Labour being unable to grapple with these facets of this process.

[xor]

I'd like to hear about TPPA or more news about Auckland at a government and what's being decided on that seeing as a lot of people are talking about it.

Instead the media outlets are taking an idea from a bunch of labour students and getting some soundbytes from MP's.

[Lightspeed]

Also, something funny was on the Internet:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ectid=11451792

Such reporting.

[pxpx]

Wrong thread, this thread is about how terrible Labour is at everything.

[spigalau]

Originally Posted by pxpx

Wrong thread, this thread is about how terrible Labour is at everything.

But they aren't terrible at being terrible, in fact I would give them an excellence award in terribleness.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by pxpx

Wrong thread, this thread is about how terrible Labour is at everything.

I think you mean this thread is for magnifying to absurdity anything that might be construed as a gaff by Labour.

However I'm open to a more organic flow of discussion, rigidity doesn't always serve us.

[crocos]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

That's really an indictment of our political process as much as it is for Labour being unable to grapple with these facets of this process.

You forgot about everybody's favourite radio station: WIIFM
What's In It For Me.

And frankly to the majority of people it's not an issue, let alone a pressing one. Sure they may or may not feel sympathy for anyone transgendered, but there's the looming threat of the TPP (for those few that actually think about things like this) that will have much further reaching impacts than any funding of gender reassignment surgery. And everyone else is basically in their own bubble and just doesn't care.

[Pimp-X]

(Referring to previous - I understand it has been scientifically proven that mental gender is largely enforced by hormones. This would mean considering ones self any other gender than ones initial physical gender is somewhere the region of delusion)

And now that I've said delusion, it's no wonder Labour are touching it inappropriately.

I think this money is far better spent developing a wanking machine. Someone tell Labour, and thank me later.

[[Malks] Pixie]

Originally Posted by Pimp-X

(Referring to previous - I understand it has been scientifically proven that mental gender is largely enforced by hormones. This would mean considering ones self any other gender than ones initial physical gender is somewhere the region of delusion)

Wow... that's pretty tragic.

As a 40 year old, white, cis male I'm pretty much the LAST person who should be highlighting this stuff but for starters sex and gender are two very different things.

Sex = male and female

Gender = masculine and feminine

So in essence:

Sex refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.

Gender describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine.

So while your sex as male or female is a biological fact that is the same in any culture, what that sex means in terms of your gender role as a 'man' or a 'woman' in society can be quite different cross culturally. These 'gender roles' have an impact on the health of the individual.

In sociological terms 'gender role' refers to the characteristics and behaviours that different cultures attribute to the sexes. What it means to be a 'real man' in any culture requires male sex plus what our various cultures define as masculine characteristics and behaviours, likewise a 'real woman' needs female sex and feminine characteristics. To summarise:

'man' = male sex+ masculine social role

(a 'real man', 'masculine' or 'manly')

'woman' = female sex + feminine social role

(a 'real woman', 'feminine' or 'womanly')

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/genderm...andgender.html

I've had a friend who transitioned and they couldn't be any less delusional if they tried (just finished their Masters in Evolutionary Biology). They paid for their transition themselves (as the waiting lists in NZ were just to long) and it made all the difference for them. Another friend is actually intersex.

Does this mean that we should be paying for those who are in this position? I don't know, probably not as most people don't actually understand what the fuck it's all about (and therefore would see it as totally frivolous and a waste of tax payers money).

Does this mean these people are delusional, crazy or mentally disturbed. No it really doesn't.

Pixie

[Ab]

I think someone's about to start foregrounding the intersectional basis of queer subjectivity!

[[Malks] Pixie]

Originally Posted by Ab

I think someone's about to start foregrounding the intersectional basis of queer subjectivity!

Gotta live up to General Discussion byline!

But seriously this sort of stuff is actually pretty fucking straight forward and it actually benefits people to have some sort of basic understanding of it.

Pixie

[Pimp-X]

I suppose knowing two post-ops means I don't have a basic understanding. I'm so sheltered, clearly, enabling me to have a sturdy armchair perspective.

[CCS]

True story: PimpX is actually a cis female to intersex dugong to manbearpig to male transgender wahine.

But you don't see him with his hand out.

[[Malks] Pixie]

Originally Posted by Pimp-X

I suppose knowing two post-ops means I don't have a basic understanding. I'm so sheltered, clearly, enabling me to have a sturdy armchair perspective.

Of course not - no need to be sarcastic about it. All I did was provide some basic (and commonly accepted) knowledge and then provide some context through my own experiences. For the sake of clarity my friend who is is intersex hasn't going through transition surgery as that's a completely different issues to gender dysphoria.

We're both armchairing it (or at least I assume we are) as we don't have direct experience of these issues.

Pixie

[Ab]

Feel male (y/n)
Have male body (y/n)
Be masculine (y/n)
Sexually attracted to male bodies (y/n)

Makes for interesting combinations I guess.

[Pimp-X]

Originally Posted by CCS

True story: PimpX is actually a cis female to intersex dugong to manbearpig to male transgender wahine.

But you don't see him with his hand out.

Of course not.

It looks nothing like a hand anyway.

[[Malks] Pixie]

Originally Posted by Ab

Feel male (y/n)
Have male body (y/n)
Be masculine (y/n)
Sexually attracted to male bodies (y/n)

Makes for interesting combinations I guess.

Yeah it certainly does. Even more so when you realise that each of those responses aren't binary but can have variable responses (for example "masculine" will be defined differently by different cultures and sub cultures).

Sorry for derailing the thread.

Pixie

[sidbo]

tumblr.txt

[StN]

Originally Posted by Pimp-X

Of course not.

It looks nothing like a hand anyway.

It's a bionically grafted wanking machine...

[pxpx]

What is "cis"?

[[Malks] Pixie]

Originally Posted by pxpx

What is "cis"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

describe related types of gender identity where individuals' experiences of their own gender match the sex they were assigned at birth.

... "individuals who have a match between the gender they were assigned at birth, their bodies, and their personal identity"

Pixie

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by pxpx

What is "cis"?

It's the inevitable consequence of our obsessions with the lives of others and with definitions.

[CCS]

It's a faggoty way of saying 'normal'.

[Pimp-X]

Who wrote that page? Nobody is 'assigned a gender at birth'. What an idiot thing to assert.

[Lightspeed]

What do you mean? My experience has been that parents tend to focus intently on the sex of their child and are typically excited about the prospect of gender assignment. Of course, most people don't think of it this way, but it only takes casual observation to see this happening.

Have you never heard the question "is it a boy or a girl"? If you have, what do you think the significance is, if not gender assignment?

[[Malks] Pixie]

Originally Posted by Pimp-X

Who wrote that page? Nobody is 'assigned a gender at birth'. What an idiot thing to assert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_assignment

[Pimp-X]

Gender assignment happens to self, by self. It doesn't happen based on pieces of paper or what people say when you're popped out.

[Lightspeed]

There is no self.

(I mean, I think it's more complex than that, but we're making simple, absolute statements, right?)

[pxpx]

What the fuck