political correctness gone mad

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Nich

I am saying no ambassador for LGBTQ will ever be woke enough to represent the fragmented and disagreeable "community".

It's not a community. At least, not as described. The defining characteristic of LGB people is same-sex attraction. In that sense the TQ people do not necessarily have anything in common with them. A lot of the tension - at least, as I have had it explained to me - is that the LGB community has fought long and hard for same-sex attraction to be accepted, and now that the battle is basically won some newcomers have attached themselves to the movement and decided to rewrite it as never having been about the right to love who you want in the first place - it was about "identity".

[Lightspeed]

You guys at best have token acquaintances that fall outside the gender and sex norms of your grandparents, right?

These are things that you only participate in via the media. That's not a question, I'm just pointing out it's obvious.

[Nich]

Let's not succumb to ad hominem attacks.

This is impossible to address. If I do list my close relationships then I'll be accused of keeping score and that it's such a hetro-normative thing to do to stay on the right side of history. If I don't list anything then I am the transphobic bigot you imagine, and failure to play is the proof.

[Lightspeed]

What debate do you think we're having?

I would tell a story, rather than provide a list. Be vulnerable, transparent, focusing on myself, rather than others. Reflect on why this has my attention, how this will be influencing my perspective.

You're demonstrating a lack of awareness, insight. I'm not making an attack, I'm just telling you.

[Nich]

Again, you're prescribing that I assume my own strawman. If I write from my own personal perspective, then that's just a sample size of 1, and nothing conclusive could be drawn from my anecdotes. Also, it is personal, and I don't think it bears repeating on an internet discussion.

But I'll indulge.

Some personal observations:
- I know more openly gay couples than I do openly homophobic persons
- I have never witnessed any prejudice or violence against any homosexuals, or transsexuals
- I can't recall any news headlines about violence against gays or transsexuals (except lovers squabbles, and suicides). I'm sure if I went looking for it I would find it.
- I was in a 4 year relationship with a prominent musician who was very vocal, outspoken ex-lesbian, then bi (it was complicated). Through her, I got to travel NZ, and got to know people of just about any combination of identities and sexuality you could imagine. They knew they didn't fit into mainstream, but they lead some great lives of self-sustaining, green, vegan, zero waste, et al. They knew there were bigots and people who wouldn't like/approve of them, but they just avoided those people.
- I lived on Cross St / K Rd for 3 years and thought that the Caluzzi Bar & Cabaret was crucial to the K Rd'ness of the neighbourhood
- I remember growing up with Eddie Izzard, Julian Clary, Dame Edna, David Bowie, Prince, Marilyn Manson. Queer used to be part of mainstream culture. What happened?

[Lightspeed]

Here's how it is. When I think to myself "why am I fixating on this, why do I need opinions on this" in regards to sex and gender I get terribly embarrassed because I come across my insecurities. And so, I don't share those opinions, in fact don't bother to form them, because I know I'm just building a facade around my doubts and fears, at which point they're hidden even from myself. I prefer to know what I'm about.

And so, when I see you creating these stories, justifying your involvement, despite these not being pressing issues for you, I see the same thing. I see the shame at the core of the opinion. This evokes the response you're seeing.

You of course have opportunity to demonstrate something else. Right now you're like grandpa having a go at being progressive, except you're not grandpa.

[Cyberbob]

Originally Posted by Nich

there will never be an LGBTQ+ candidate, because it is an impossible unicorn of a condition statement

Which reminds me of the "Minorities" label. Just because you're a minority candidate, doesn't mean you'll be in touch with all the other minorities needs.

[Ab]

That's the thing about representative democracy, the whole point is to appeal to majorities.

[crocos]

You mean it's NOT to represent and reflect the population? I am SHOCKED. Just shocked I tell you!

[Ab]

I didn't say represent, I said appeal to. You can't get elected unless you appeal to more people than your competition.

[Cyberbob]

Candidate 1: Vegetables!
Candidate 2: Ice cream!

Still relevant: Democracy Simply Doesn't Work

[crocos]

Originally Posted by Ab

I didn't say represent, I said appeal to. You can't get elected unless you appeal to more people than your competition.

Sorry, forgot the sarcasm tags.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Cyberbob

Candidate 1: Vegetables!
Candidate 2: Ice cream!

Still relevant: Democracy Simply Doesn't Work

The vegetable candidate’s campaign was not helped by the presence of noisy activists protesting that he did not acknowledge the aims and aspirations of the fungi community, that he hadn’t apologised for the colonisation of weed peoples by Western food crops, and that he was guilty of erasure and hate speech by occupying space that could otherwise go to a mammal carnivore candidate who nevertheless identified as a vegetable.

Of course, Ice cream won in a landslide and ushered in a nightmare reign of oppression and tyranny, but hey at least we didn’t get the wrong sort of vegetable.

[fixed_truth]

I guess it's purposely done by media that there's a disproportionate focus on noisy activists which have fuck all power compared to the elite lobbyists.

[Lightspeed]

What? No! Them homos are totally worth all the attention we give them!

Amirite, guys?

[Ab]

Well the people wanted to give the homo their attention, but he was interrupted by the intersectionality purity police.

[Lightspeed]

Well of course. Giving "the" homo is a contradiction, contradictions have consequences.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Well of course. Giving "the" homo attention is a contradiction, contradictions have consequences.

[Nich]

It's worth attention even if you're straight, white, and pretending to be progressive like me.

If a cultural shift is causing:
- HR policy rewrites
- hiring and firing based on the re-writes
- diversity quotas instead of meritocracy
- forced resignations
- fire alarms being pulled in lecture theatres
- policing of language regarding pronouns
- businesses offering hormone injections to children and teens

well, these things don't affect me directly but I can smell the smoke! Is it all good changes, or all bad changes? I don't know but I'm eager to see what this all means for the future. Sure, I commit thought crime, and I'm part of the patriarchy, but I am certainly interested in these things, and have a few opinions.

Also, the homos are the least of our worries in all this. This covers such a broad spectrum of race, sexuality, feminism, genders, biology, attacks on science ... It's not good enough to say "If you're white, straight, and male your insight is of no value."

[Ab]

This is an interesting episode of the BBC podcast “Seriously”:

The Purity Spiral

Content warning: knitting

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Nich

It's worth attention even if you're straight, white, and pretending to be progressive like me.

If a cultural shift is causing:
- HR policy rewrites
- hiring and firing based on the re-writes
- diversity quotas instead of meritocracy
- forced resignations
- fire alarms being pulled in lecture theatres
- policing of language regarding pronouns
- businesses offering hormone injections to children and teens

well, these things don't affect me directly but I can smell the smoke! Is it all good changes, or all bad changes? I don't know but I'm eager to see what this all means for the future. Sure, I commit thought crime, and I'm part of the patriarchy, but I am certainly interested in these things, and have a few opinions.

Also, the homos are the least of our worries in all this. This covers such a broad spectrum of race, sexuality, feminism, genders, biology, attacks on science ... It's not good enough to say "If you're white, straight, and male your insight is of no value."

Specifically what cultural shift, according to whom, why them? How did you come to know about it? What's your dominant sources of information? How do you know you have a complete knowledge, rather than just the compelling edges, or just what others want you to know? Why this aspect of our culture of when there are so many of others of dramatic consequence? Both shifts and lack of movement where it appears essential.

If you are committing thought crime, who have you instituted as thought police? How'd you find yourself under such authority, cause no one polices my thoughts except me. Have you not noticed?

You can have the opinions you want. They don't have to be robust. You can eat McDonalds every day if you choose, too.

[Nich]

Socratic questioning!? Ain't nobody got time for that.

[Ab]

Oh god the woke commisariat just noticed that Peter Singer exists.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Ab

It's not a community. At least, not as described. The defining characteristic of LGB people is same-sex attraction. In that sense the TQ people do not necessarily have anything in common with them. A lot of the tension - at least, as I have had it explained to me - is that the LGB community has fought long and hard for same-sex attraction to be accepted, and now that the battle is basically won some newcomers have attached themselves to the movement and decided to rewrite it as never having been about the right to love who you want in the first place - it was about "identity".

From the you can’t make this stuff up dept:

The only lesbian event at this year’s Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras has been deleted from the program because lesbian same-sex attraction is transphobic

After a petition demanding lesbian YouTuber Arielle Scarcella be no-platformed from a panel called Les-Talk, one of the events featured at Sydney Mardi Gras, the local Pride parade and festival, the event was removed from Pride. Trans activists began a petition demanding Scarcella be removed on account of her view that it is not “transphobic” for lesbians to not be attracted to trans-identified males.

Originally Posted by Ab

In all seriousness though - if the transgender activist movement were actually a patriarchy covert op with its goal the erasure of womanness from public life, how would it differ from the transgender activist movement we have now?

[pxpx]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Specifically what cultural shift, according to whom, why them? How did you come to know about it? What's your dominant sources of information? How do you know you have a complete knowledge, rather than just the compelling edges, or just what others want you to know? Why this aspect of our culture of when there are so many of others of dramatic consequence?

Sounds like something the thought police would say! *squints suspiciously*

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Nich

Socratic questioning!? Ain't nobody got time for that.

You've got plenty of time to titilate yourself with ideas of other people's sexual identity tho.

It's so fucking cringe, but carry on.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Ab

Oh god the woke commisariat just noticed that Peter Singer exists.

...aaaaaand unpersoned, just like that. Boy the mob moves fast these days.

Peter Singer event cancelled in New Zealand after outcry over disability stance

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ability-stance

Note: this guy is arguably the greatest living moral philosopher

[Nich]

LS,
you've distorted and misunderstood my position. I think we are shooting for the same end goal, but are getting stuck on a point of distinction.

I draw a distinction between Individuals, identity group labels, and representatives speaking on behalf of identity groups. When I attack representatives of LGBTQ, I am not attacking people who would categorise themselves in this group.

I criticise what people do, and it is unfair to make an issue out of something they have no control over.

Now, my criticism: If any progress is to be made in any pursuit, don't broaden the scope so much that you risk misaligned (or conflicting) objectives from those involved.

[Lightspeed]

I'm saying progress is getting along just fine and you're caught up in someone's dog and pony show.

[Nich]

"Stay in your lane." gotcha

[Lightspeed]

Your defensiveness only makes me even more curious what this is about you.

The questions I've posed I offered for you to reflect on, not as an inquisition.

[Lightspeed]

Here's something a bit more present in our own lives:

Consent is 'a sober yes' - Police ready for Orientation Week

Sex is for the sober, police say, ahead of universities' orientation week parties.

Certainly a challenge to cultural norms.

[Ab]

UK Labour leadership candidate calls for law change to force women’s refuges to admit biological males if they claim to identify as women

Bailey also endorsed a charter calling for expulsion of any Party members expressing support for organizations including Women’s Place UK and the LGB Alliance.

Acknowledging that women exist or that same-sex attraction is valid is now thoughtcrime. I mean, has always been thoughtcrime. Obviously.

[StN]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Here's something a bit more present in our own lives:

Consent is 'a sober yes' - Police ready for Orientation Week



Certainly a challenge to cultural norms.

I'd hazard a guess that half of the constabulary wouldn't be here without the help of a bottle of the old Maison de ouvre-jambe.

[crocos]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

The questions I've posed I offered for you to reflect on, not as an inquisition.

Aah, the "Old man from the mountain" greater wisdom fallacy.

[Lightspeed]

Are you sure it's a fallacy? It's not possible I've actually got some wisdom, earned through disciplined effort? Efforts Nich has some awareness of through our previous personal relationship?

[Ab]

Female prisoner raped by trans inmate in women’s prison, has rape report dismissed as “transphobia”

https://news.wttw.com/2020/02/19/law...sgender-inmate

[Lightspeed]

I shudder at that thought of all the articles you come across in your information bubble that you don't post.

[Nich]

cmon, you asked me to reveal my personal relationship to this. Its all about who i am as a person, and not what was said.

[Lightspeed]

You're already revealing yourself. Your arse is waving about in the breeze. I'm trying to get you to notice, so you cover up and stop embarrassing yourself.

If you think I'm just some chump who knows nothing about nothing, you can correct me or ignore me, as you prefer.