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Old 14th June 2010, 19:41     #161
Redneck
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyc
Struggling to get over your long list of Cs in sociology?
Thanks for making my point, cunt
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Old 14th June 2010, 19:43     #162
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadinjector
now according to that definition above, do you honestly think that what you said even makes sense? do you think that in fact, most middle class honkies have poly culture in their blood simply by virtue of their being a minority of them in the country they are born in?
Absolutely, if you believe the related sciences.

Also, dictionaries define words. We're talking about a concept here, in which case you're better off with Wikipedia or the like.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 14th June 2010 at 19:44.
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Old 14th June 2010, 19:48     #163
TnT
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redneck
Thanks for making my point, black cunt
Fixed so Andrew Johns can understand it.
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Old 14th June 2010, 19:49     #164
cyc
Objection!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentle
All this shit is happening right before your eyes, too bad you're too blinded by 'cultural sensitivity' to realise it.
Too bad you're too blind to realise that evidence of something happening alongside other paradigms is not conclusive evidence of the first phenomenon's inevitable ascent and its complete and utter destruction of all other opposing paradigms.

Is it really so difficult for you to restrain your ego just a little bit and not act like you have a crystal ball?

Edit: Redneck: you're welcome. You're at least smarter than Gentle.

Last edited by cyc : 14th June 2010 at 19:51.
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Old 14th June 2010, 19:52     #165
Redneck
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyc
restrain your ego
Hehehe oh dear
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Old 14th June 2010, 19:53     #166
MrTTTT
 
cyc isn't as smart as he thinks he is.
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Old 14th June 2010, 20:00     #167
cyc
Objection!
 
TTTT, got over being emo yet?

Honestly, I've got no big claims to make here. If I seriously believe that I had the kind of insight and predictive abilities that Gentle is so certain that he has, I'd go and either be a gambling man or latch myself on to a rich guy's portfolio and help him and myself get very, very rich. Alas, no one has a perfect crystal ball in this world.
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Old 14th June 2010, 20:05     #168
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Let me abos go loose, Bruce
Let me abos go loose
They're of no further use, Bruce
Just let me abos go loose

ALL TOGETHER NOW!

Tie me paradigm down, sport
Tie me paradigm down
Tie me paradigm down, sport
Tie me paradigm down
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Old 14th June 2010, 20:16     #169
MrTTTT
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyc
TTTT, got over being emo yet?
Yes Thanks for asking. Got over being a know-it-all cock yet?
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Old 14th June 2010, 20:19     #170
gentle
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyc
Honestly, I've got no big claims to make here. If I seriously believe that I had the kind of insight and predictive abilities that Gentle is so certain that he has, I'd go and either be a gambling man or latch myself on to a rich guy's portfolio and help him and myself get very, very rich. Alas, no one has a perfect crystal ball in this world.
The only people who argue for the rights of individual groups are those that have an agenda. As idealistic as it sounds I'd rather be on the side of a monoculture as an answer to humanities warring ways than argue for cultural difference, which as we all know only helps to define one side from another in nearly every conflict on earth.

Last edited by gentle : 14th June 2010 at 20:22.
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Old 14th June 2010, 20:28     #171
verve_rat
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
You're be right, if heritage was something one can individually possess. But it is not.

I can understand your point though, at least I think. That people want a heritage they define themselves. While I think this is impossible (unless you live isolated on an island), I accept that one can have some degree of control over their heritage. However, as soon as you put blinders on as to what influences there are over your heritage, particularly influences you would rather didn't exist, you have immediately lost control.
I'm taking issue with your assertion that living in proximity to a group of people that are not of the same background as you somehow changes your background.

If I move to China, I might change my outlook on some stuff because of the influences inherent in living in China. But I'm not going to claim that I have a Chinese heritage.

Just because a group heritage is not possessed by one individual, that does not mean that two distinct heritages from two different groups can not exist independently, even if they exist in the same location.

Also, since when has an individual only been able to claim one heritage?

And lastly; as Lead pointed out, the use of "heritage" in this was sucks donkey balls. Come up with a better word.
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Old 14th June 2010, 20:53     #172
madmaxii
 
cyc - you're a vicious little cunt. I'd hate to see you with an AK47 . I guess the good thing would be that you are so blinded with your prejudices you'd miss anything you aimed at
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Old 14th June 2010, 21:06     #173
fidgit
Always itchy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by verve_rat
And lastly; as Lead pointed out, the use of "heritage" in this was sucks donkey balls. Come up with a better word.
Through reading this entire back and forth, it's been pretty obvious you're discussing culture not heritage. Heritage informs the 'starting point' for who you are. Culture informs who you are now, and will become. Arguments that living near/intermingling with a group of people with a different heritage will adjust your culture would carry a lot more weight.
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Old 14th June 2010, 21:10     #174
Lightspeed
 
Indeed.
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Old 14th June 2010, 23:17     #175
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
So the clothes you wear, the food you eat, the television you like (the fact you even know what a television is), these are all things you came up with by yourself, completely independent of the world and society around you?
Holy fuck! I'm American, French and Italian, but mostly Chinese, Japanese and Taiwanese!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Realistically, it has been scientifically demonstrated that if you know someone who knows someone who knows someone who knows a Polynesian (for example), you are influenced by that culture.
Assuming that line of BS is in any way accurate for a moment, any influence of other people through remote association with me does not make their culture my culture, which seems to be what you're trying to argue.

Your arguments have gotten so ridiculously spurious lately that I think you MUST be trolling. Dare I say it? I HOPE you're trolling.
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Old 15th June 2010, 00:08     #176
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crocos
Assuming that line of BS is in any way accurate for a moment, any influence of other people through remote association with me does not make their culture my culture, which seems to be what you're trying to argue.
It's accurate if you have any faith in contemporary science.

However I am not saying that someone else's culture is your culture, I'm saying that your culture is influenced by the cultures around you (and vice versa).

Middle-class whitey might not wear a lava-lava or even know what one is, but he's seeing media and advertising in NZ that represents and targets a wide range of cultures and values other than middle-class whitey, including Polynesian culture. And if you're a human being, then you will in some way absorb that culture and those values.

If you don't believe me then how do you know what I mean what I say "At least our brownies won't eat your pet dog".
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Old 15th June 2010, 06:20     #177
ilk
 
Anyone else sick of Lightspeed's Sphenic, Procian ramblings? We need some Edharians in this thread.
/apropos of nothing
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Old 15th June 2010, 06:20     #178
Lylmik
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentle
We've seen the results of only the very beginnings of globalisation. To assume pockets of resistance will endure is just naive, namely because people in general get along with one another (ie. fuck).


I thought Lightspeed's original comment about being influenced by the culture of the society in which you live* to be a reasonably fair comment, but not really much else that came after that.
[*Unless you're a total bigoted prick, but even then wouldn't you need to have other cultures around you to become/realise that? ]

I think leadinjector was right suggesting that he is confusing culture and heritage, particularly when talking about 'defining' or 'controlling' your heritage - you can choose what you acknowledge and what you ignore (like that black slave great-great grandmother) but you can't change it, and your heritage is not affected by your society, except in relation to the above and what you choose to acknowledge.
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Old 15th June 2010, 08:30     #179
drl
 
I am not a racist but, I find it interesting that people can say globalisation is in effect when its mostly just people moving to 'the west' to get a better life or whatever. And even when they do this, they are generally recreating their home/culture/religion in their new country, segmenting themselves from the general population until they are the new population, at least in their area. In NZ this happens less but England is terrible in this regard.

Also, the number of people from the west moving to anywhere else is minimal and I wouldn't say it's globalisation if it's only one way. Do you really think you'd fit in in Japan, Iran, or Niger? Of course not, and why would you want to? Same goes for most westerners which is they they stick to the west.

As for heritage, I don't accept that mine is Polynesian at all. I have nothing in common with Polynesia (and neither does NZ as an Island really, its just England on the other side of the Earth) as my ancestors come from Europe. That doesn't mean I don't live in a country that has accepted their culture though, which I think some of you are confusing here.
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Old 15th June 2010, 09:27     #180
Endymion
 
drl you confuse Anglosaxon (white caucasoid with penchant for conquest and hoarding wealth) culture with English (from England) culture.

The reality is that New Zealand is a major part of Oceania/Polynesia/Pacifika whatever you call it. You don't have to be brown to be Polynesian, kinda like you don't have to be white to be English.

And this is the internet! THE cultural melting pot of the world. You'd fit in in those places better than you think, Japan and Iran especially.
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Old 15th June 2010, 09:30     #181
Saladin
Nothing to See Here!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drl
Do you really think you'd fit in in Japan, Iran, or Niger? Of course not, and why would you want to?
Niger please!
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Old 15th June 2010, 09:48     #182
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drl
As for heritage, I don't accept that mine is Polynesian at all. I have nothing in common with Polynesia (and neither does NZ as an Island really, its just England on the other side of the Earth) as my ancestors come from Europe. That doesn't mean I don't live in a country that has accepted their culture though, which I think some of you are confusing here.
NZ as an Island has no Polynesian heritage? Do you think NZ as an Island started when the TOW was signed and everything before that was irrelevant?

Your heritage is inherited not just from your parents ancestry but from the history of the place you are born - regardless if your culture reflects this or not.
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Old 15th June 2010, 10:42     #183
Fx.
 
is this whole discussion debating semantics regarding personal heritage vs the countries heritage?
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Old 15th June 2010, 11:04     #184
drl
 
Long post, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endymion
drl you confuse Anglosaxon (white caucasoid with penchant for conquest and hoarding wealth) culture with English (from England) culture.
Yes, but that's because the English no longer really have a culture, unless you're talking about football and fish'n'chips.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endymion
The reality is that New Zealand is a major part of Oceania/Polynesia/Pacifika whatever you call it. You don't have to be brown to be Polynesian, kinda like you don't have to be white to be English.
Totally, but as an individual/family you have to identify with that. You can be a Pakistani living in Manchester and be 100% English, or a Samoan living in Manurewa and be 100% Kiwi. But you guys are just making sweeping statements that are complete bollocks. Can you really simplify it down to 'I live in NZ so I am Polynesian?' because it seems some of you are.

What I am saying is that while I live in NZ, I don't really have anything at all in my life that is influenced by Polynesian culture. I may be surrounded (not so much though - I live in CHCH at the moment) by it, but it has little impact on my life at all. On the flipside, everything I am is basically derived from the fact I came from Europe and am one of those conquering hoarders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endymion
And this is the internet! THE cultural melting pot of the world. You'd fit in in those places better than you think, Japan and Iran especially.
Better than what though? And thats the point. I'd fit in if I really wanted to, but I don't. I like who I am and if I was going to live somewhere else it would be to a country with a similar culture because I don't want to change who I am just to fit in. Which is what happens to most migrants and comes back to globalisation being a myth. Just because people are moving around the world doesn't mean that all people are one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
NZ as an Island has no Polynesian heritage? Do you think NZ as an Island started when the TOW was signed and everything before that was irrelevant?
You're just putting words in my mouth, but ok.

As a physical Island? No. NZ is the only country in Polynesia that is nothing like the others. Climate, landscape, flora and fauna are all totally different.

As a place where the Maori travelled and lived a few hundred years ago? Yes and no. The problem here though is that the Maori way of life was either swallowed up, or shit on by westerners for a hundred years. It's only recently that it had a chance to claw its way back. What tangibly survives of the Maori way of life in NZ today? Their customs definitely have a place in society, but what about with me as a person? What about the general populace? For arguements sake, most people you ask on the street would say stuff like the Haka defines the Maori. But these days its been reduced to a gimmick at a sports event or when someone famous comes here. I'm not say that the Maori people haven't had a huge effect on NZ, but best parts of their culture generally survive in museums and once again, have nothing to do with me/my family.

And the rest of polynesia. It has only been in the last 30 years that NZ has had an influx of Tongan/Samoan/etc culture and while it's had a big influence on NZ Culture today, it didn't exist here much before that.

But are you really telling me this is where I get my heritage? My identity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
Your heritage is inherited not just from your parents ancestry but from the history of the place you are born - regardless if your culture reflects this or not.
Yes, but its also who you define yourself as. As an individual I have nothing to do with this Polynesian heritage except for the fact that I live in a country that happens to be part of the triangle. How long has your family been in NZ? Mine came here after WWI, but I can trace it back hundreds of years. Is it any surprise I identify with a tangible part of my histroy as opposed something that has nothing to do with my life?

Last edited by drl : 15th June 2010 at 11:05.
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Old 15th June 2010, 11:37     #185
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Yes, but its also who you define yourself as. As an individual I have nothing to do with this Polynesian heritage except for the fact that I live in a country that happens to be part of the triangle.
Again you're saying that if you don't identify with your countries historic heritage then it isn't your heritage. I disagree and think that when you are a NZ citizen, the history of NZ becomes your history (again regardless if whether or not that history has meaning for you).

How you do (or don't) define yourself in relation to your countries heritage (or any heritage for that matter) is culture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fx.
is this whole discussion debating semantics regarding personal heritage vs the countries heritage?
Pretty much
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Old 15th June 2010, 12:46     #186
drl
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
Again you're saying that if you don't identify with your countries historic heritage then it isn't your heritage. I disagree and think that when you are a NZ citizen, the history of NZ becomes your history (again regardless if whether or not that history has meaning for you).
I'm saying that a countries heritage and a persons heritage are completely separate things. They can be the same and a lot of the time they are but people here are trying to say that a countries heritage is what defines the people who live in said country and that is wrong. It might come from the country you live in or it might not. Are you going to tell me that if Fritz from Germany came to NZ and became a citizen, he would then define his heritage as Polynesian? Of course you aren't. And It's the same for everybody.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
How you do (or don't) define yourself in relation to your countries heritage (or any heritage for that matter) is culture.
No its not. Culture is how you define yourself in society today. It is always changing and is infulenced by heritage but they are separate for a reason. Heritage is history, it's always there. For instance, I am 100% part of the 'Kiwi' culture and this includes many things Polynesian but is that where I came from? No.
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Old 15th June 2010, 13:18     #187
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drl
I'm saying that a countries heritage and a persons heritage are completely separate things. They can be the same and a lot of the time they are but people here are trying to say that a countries heritage is what defines the people who live in said country and that is wrong. It might come from the country you live in or it might not. Are you going to tell me that if Fritz from Germany came to NZ and became a citizen, he would then define his heritage as Polynesian? Of course you aren't. And It's the same for everybody.
Yes they are separate things. Everyone has a 'personal' heritage and everyone has a 'country' heritage. They may or may not overlap.
If Fritz became a NZ citizen then then part and parcel with that is New Zealands historic heritage, which includes Polynesian aspects. He wouldn't define his personal heritage as Polynesian no, but his 'country' heritage now includes New Zealands, as he is a New Zealander.
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Old 15th June 2010, 13:29     #188
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drl
Yes, but that's because the English no longer really have a culture, unless you're talking about football and fish'n'chips.
Really? I think we have different ideas of culture. As I see it culture extends to things like how personal greetings work, how to deal with disputes, how children are educated, how you decide where to sit on the bus, etc., etc., etc. You know, all the stuff you're probably completely unaware of in your day-to-day life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drl
I'm not say that the Maori people haven't had a huge effect on NZ, but best parts of their culture generally survive in museums and once again, have nothing to do with me/my family.
If you live in NZ and pay taxes, then at least financially the Maori people have something to do with you and your family.

Also, while I agree certain aspects of Maori culture have probably died, been squashed or have simply progressed, both traditional and contemporary Maori culture is alive and well in NZ. It's just not particularly in the public eye.
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Old 15th June 2010, 14:02     #189
Cynos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drl
I'm not say that the Maori people haven't had a huge effect on NZ, but best parts of their culture generally survive in museums and once again, have nothing to do with me/my family.
I bet you say kia ora. Or ka pai. Or tu meke.

I always liked the quote that "A New Zealander is an Englishman the Maori have made a decent person out of."
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Old 15th June 2010, 14:09     #190
xor
 
Sooooo Andrew Johns eh?
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Old 15th June 2010, 14:09     #191
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fx.
is this whole discussion debating semantics regarding personal heritage vs the countries heritage?
Where lolspeed is involved, it's always a debate about semantics.
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Old 15th June 2010, 14:10     #192
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xor
Sooooo Andrew Johns eh?
I heard he called some guy a black cunt!
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Old 15th June 2010, 14:15     #193
xor
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
I heard he called some guy a black cunt!
He is a cunt. He glassed his gf. And he just happens to be a black one.
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Old 15th June 2010, 14:19     #194
ZoSo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xor
He is a cunt. He glassed his gf. And he just happens to be a black one.
Greg Bird you fool.
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Old 15th June 2010, 14:49     #195
xor
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoSo
Greg Bird you fool.
oops my bad. He bashed his gf instead.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/...nds-by-her-man
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Old 15th June 2010, 14:59     #196
ZoSo
 
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/rugb...0412-s2lg.html
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Old 15th June 2010, 15:46     #197
xor
 
I fail
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Old 15th June 2010, 19:28     #198
fidgit
Always itchy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
If you don't believe me then how do you know what I mean what I say "At least our brownies won't eat your pet dog".
I think you're confusing sensationalistic news reporting for "Having an impact on how I live my life".

Hey lightspeed, which parts of your life are living "asian"? Because, you know, there's just as big an Asian population in NZ as there is Poly (excluding Maori: btw lumping Maori in with Poly is a cop out. One is the aboriginal people of this country, whom we've proactively tried to absorb into every day culture. Of course 'Maori culture' has an impact - but Samoan or Fijian or Tongan is not held in this regard, and do not have any where near the impact you're suggesting they do). And eating Chinese takeaway doesn't mean you're immersed in Malaysian heritage, it just means someones selling you some food.

I still find it hard to believe you honestly think that having a group of people living in a country automatically imparts their history and culture as part of the host nations heritage.

Actually, fuck, there were Chinese here waaaay before there were lots of Islanders (excluding Maori). So, we must be a pretty damn Chinese by now right?
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Old 15th June 2010, 21:35     #199
Lightspeed
 
I think you're confusing "have an impact on my life" with "completely change the way I live."

We almost certainly have absorbed the culture and values of the Chinese people who were part of early NZ, proportional to the number of Chinese relative to the rest of the population and dependant on the survivability of those values.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 15th June 2010 at 21:36.
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Old 16th June 2010, 05:56     #200
ilk
 
Culture&Values(Chinese) in NZ Culture ∝ Population(Chinese)*Culture&ValuesSurvivability(Chinese)

Fidgit is ascribing a low value to the final term, are you disputing this?
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