Labour Thus Far....

[StN]

Originally Posted by Ab

New Roy Morgan Poll:

National 38%
Labour 32%
Act 11.5%
Greens 11%

Is that percentage support, or members with Covid?

[Lightspeed]

The worst thing about Labour is to vote them out we have to vote National in.

[Ab]

Speaking as a sometimes Green sometimes ACT voter, perhaps you should try and break your codependent relationship with the two main parties?

[Lightspeed]

There's some hope for that, but I'm not sure how much.

The Greens have some definite potential, but still only so much. Does ACT really have anything going on? Maybe? They still seem pretty fringey. TOP are still trying to find their form, and maybe they will. Maori are still vulnerable, but there's hope they can find their niche. And there's always room for something new. Maybe these protesters will support a party?

At least there is a question mark. We don't seem so hopelessly trapped, like in US politics.

[Cyberbob]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Does ACT really have anything going on?

https://www.act.org.nz/the_free_press_7_march_2022

In which the question of "Were the years of life saved from COVID worth shutting down the country" is answered with a "probably not" and "we can’t afford to make the same mistake next time."

We shut the country down to save lives. Whether or not people think that is a positive thing or a negative thing will tell me a lot about how you vote.

[Ab]

Humans are terrible at systems and terrible at assessing complex combos of cause and effect. One effect of the lockdowns is that people who would otherwise have died of COVID did not. There will be other non-positive effects, like people staying alive but going insane, see the convoy thread. What impact will it have on society for a large group of people to go insane? Well, I guess we'll find out. Along with the impacts of all the others we haven't identified yet. And because we suck at systems, we won't get all of those right anyway.

[fixed_truth]

And the impacts keep stacking up

[StN]

Originally Posted by Ab

Humans are terrible at systems and terrible at assessing complex combos of cause and effect. One effect of the lockdowns is that people who would otherwise have died of COVID did not. There will be other non-positive effects, like people staying alive but going insane, see the convoy thread. What impact will it have on society for a large group of people to go insane? Well, I guess we'll find out. Along with the impacts of all the others we haven't identified yet. And because we suck at systems, we won't get all of those right anyway.

I stand by my assertion that the Covid response was a ploy by big-AgedCare (and the associated dementia subset) to increase demand... How many ex-All Blacks invested in Ryman etc? And how were they tipped off

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Ab

Pregnant New Zealand journalist that covered fall of Afghanistan to Taliban and advocated for women's rights is given refuge by Taliban after Labour Government rejects emergency requests for border entry

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-z...-miq-spot.html

Labour Government leaks personal info and falsehoods in attempt to discredit her, even though MFAT asks for that not to happen

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-...GFZKAEAJT7R24/

[Cyberbob]

1news poll.

Party support

National: 39% (up 7 percentage points)


Labour: 37% (down 3pp)

Green Party: 9% (steady)

ACT: 8% (down 3pp)

Te Pāti Māori: 2% (steady)

New Zealand First: 2% (steady)

The Opportunities Party (TOP): 1% (down 1pp)

New Conservative: 1% (steady)

Don’t know/refused: 10%

Well, i mean yeah. It's a bitter divorce trial, and dad's just promised a 50c lollie mix if the kid chooses him.

[Ab]

When asking voters: 'If you could only choose between Jacinda Ardern and Christopher Luxon, who would you prefer as Prime Minister?'

Ardern - 46%
Luxon - 45%

[fixed_truth]

Pity they couldn't find anyone that ticks the boxes but didn't have his ugly views on marriage equality & abortion. I'm privileged but not that privileged to think that his personal beliefs won't negatively effect people regardless if any laws are changed. Having someone high profile like the PM holding these beliefs validates and perpetuates that bs.

[StN]

Originally Posted by Cyberbob

Well, i mean yeah. It's a bitter divorce trial, and dad's just promised a 50c lollie mix if the kid chooses him.

When Jim Andertons safe seat changed from Sydenham to Wigram, I think it included the catchment for Karen. She had previously seemed like a dyed in the wool Labour person. Seems she's been pushed just a bit too far.

20 whacks.

There is some anger out there in the grass roots.

[sidbo]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

Pity they couldn't find anyone that ticks the boxes but didn't have his ugly views on marriage equality & abortion. I'm privileged but not that privileged to think that his personal beliefs won't negatively effect people regardless if any laws are changed. Having someone high profile like the PM holding these beliefs validates and perpetuates that bs.

This is the thing for me. Any fucker whose moral compass is derived from sky fairies should not be in any form of public office. Especially if your particular branch of sky fairy-ness believes in the Rapture, just look at how fucked the US has been by the evangelicals.

[Ab]

It’s literally written into the laws of our country that our head of state has to be the leader of a church.

[sidbo]

So you're saying there is a solution then.

Viva!

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Ab

Labour Government leaks personal info and falsehoods in attempt to discredit her, even though MFAT asks for that not to happen

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-...GFZKAEAJT7R24/

Hey remember when Judith Collins and Paula Bennett did this and it made people angry because it proved they were shit people unfit to hold office?

[xor]

Kia Ora Simon,

It's different because labour are virtuous and the party for the people.

Also, the number of people going to the food bank has doubled in the last two years and we've seen the largest transfer of wealth to landords since forever.

nga mihi

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Ab

Hey remember when Judith Collins and Paula Bennett did this and it made people angry because it proved they were shit people unfit to hold office?

It all seems a bit daft. While it wouldn't be appropriate for the government to treat Bellis as a special case, given her profile if she had a legitimate claim for entry, the government should have ensured that Bellis was following the correct process, quickly resolving any hurdles that might pop up (like the incorrect application being put forward.)

Maybe Al Jazeera reporters aren't popular with the government?

[Ab]

Originally Posted by xor

Kia Ora Simon,

It's different because labour are virtuous and the party for the people.

Also, the number of people going to the food bank has doubled in the last two years and we've seen the largest transfer of wealth to landords since forever.

nga mihi

hashtag bekind

[sidbo]

http://boisdejustice.com/Drawings/Drawings.html

[Savage]

.

[DrTiTus]

I actually don't want a "democracy" where decisions are made by the leader in charge, and not by the will of the people. If the leader just makes shit up, that's not democracy at all. It shouldn't really matter what the leader believes in, if they follow democratic principles.

If one "sky fairy" guy can decide what laws are passed according to his own beliefs, what's the point in calling it a democracy?

I think if you're worried about the leader so much, you're admitting we don't have much of a democracy - that we effectively have no say in decisions. Maybe I expect too much of this "representative democracy" (which kind of reminds me of the term "trans woman" to remind you they are not actually a woman), but I kind of thought that democracies did what the people wanted, not one leader. Even the idea that MPs from the same party all vote the same way (except on rare occasions), instead of based on the will of their constituents is a warning sign. I know that's the system we have, but can we expect to fix things if we are operating within a flawed democracy-in-name-only system?

[fixed_truth]

^QED

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

I'm privileged but not that privileged to think that his personal beliefs won't negatively effect people regardless if any laws are changed.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

I think if you're worried about the leader so much, you're admitting we don't have much of a democracy

Ours is a parliamentary democracy. The people don't make the decisions; the people choose MPs to represent them, and the MPs form groups, and if enough of the MPs can form a group or coalition large enough to pass legislation then that group or coalition gets recognised by the Queen's representative as "the government", and the government makes decisions. The people don't make the decisions.

[Lightspeed]

Who even needs community, we can just make our own decisions for ourselves, why should I sacrifice my freedom?

[Cyberbob]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

I actually don't want a "democracy" where decisions are made by the leader in charge, and not by the will of the people. If the leader just makes shit up, that's not democracy at all. It shouldn't really matter what the leader believes in, if they follow democratic principles.

Direct democracy
In a direct democracy, all citizens are invited to participate in all political decisions. Ancient Athens had this, but keep in mind 'citizen' was quite a high bar.

Representative democracy
In a representative democracy, representatives are elected by the people and entrusted to carry out the business of governance.

That's your difference.

TBH, I don't want every average homeopath loving astrologist Joe having an equal say to those with decades of experience in expertise fields, when it comes to how my country is governed. I'd much rather choose to have the necessary experts in charge.

Then you've got the problem where the sorts of people with the ego to want to become a career politician, and the charismatic skills to run a successful populares campaign, aren't necessarily the skills required to govern once you're there, or the sorts of people you want in charge.

[Ab]

Cost of Labour’s Auckland light rail plan balloons to $29 billion.

https://www.driven.co.nz/news/govern...easury-papers/

[_indigo1]

Oh god, can you imagine if a direct democracy was tried in a modern country today?

If you want to know what kind of decisions making 'mob democracy' would produce; look no further than the likes of facebook and twitter.

*shudder*

[_indigo1]

Since I got thinking about this again;

it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

I totally agree with this. Democracy is badly broken. It's just the best we have come up with.

We have made some refinements over time; i.e. direct democracy -> representative democracy

I think the political game of thrones of representative democracy just turns politics into a reality TV show and does not produce good results at all. Even worse in countries where money is allowed to play more of a role like the USA.
It optimises for short term goals over long term, and generally is extremely inefficient and corruptible.

Personally I am a fan of sortition as an idea.

[blynk]

While it doesn't change much, I think a better system like STV would make for a better way to select representatives.

But you will still have the same of representatives are the ones that get the say for everyone they represent, and all those representatives have to fall in line with the party, or they will find themselves on the outside.

Would it be better for MPs to have anonymous voting on more matters?

[_indigo1]

The problem with that is that it doesn't do anything to address the inherent conflict of interest created by the very existence of such a thing as a career politician - which means you have doing the right thing the job demands being corrupted by doing the right thing to get re-elected.

Just removing this factor would remove so many issues in politics.
It is addressed by maximum terms for prime ministers; but the party system subverts this and amplifies peoples inherent tendency towards tribalism.

If perhaps parties had maximum terms or some kind of limits after which they must disband and reform as something new or some such it could address this - but I don't know anything about the logistics of that and also the complex effects the system could be played, for example with new parties forming that 'everyone knows' are the old party under a new name, but not officially.

That is why I like sortition.
It just removes politicians from democracy.

Keep in mind anything significantly deviating to the current system will seem and feel outlandish. But I wholeheartedly believe that to truly move forward socially long term, we will need to strongly address and upgrade our political systems.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90606492...ected-citizens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUee1I69nFs

[Ab]

Originally Posted by _indigo1

Oh god, can you imagine if a direct democracy was tried in a modern country today?

That sound is a horde of DAObros on Discord beating off

[DrTiTus]

I would like digital referendums (avoiding the cost of setting up a paper referendum every time), so that at least we can have our say. I don't expect our votes to be binding - I don't trust everyone either - but to have clear indication of public opinion, and also a trail of whether decisions are being made according to public sentiment or "expert override", and how those decisions turned out. If we all voted for 0% tax, I expect a sensible representative to say "this isn't going to work out well, we need to maintain tax rates of n% because XYZ". Then we would all see how it worked out for us, and we can either appreciate the over-riding decision, or not. [I think this is called "accountability"]

Necessary experts would be good, with all of their opinions published (open/transparent) so that people CAN become better informed and see all sides of arguments, with reasons, and see the advice provided to our leaders (who often don't have degrees/expertise in their portfolios - one of our ex-MPs, Stephen Joyce maybe?, had a degree in zoology - not in itself a bad thing, but certainly not an expert in his portfolio)

I realize it's a big step to go from where we are now to my silly ideals of people becoming better citizens, but we have the technology, and I think that an informed public that has a chance to voice their opinions and discuss among ourselves is better than an ignorant public + "representative dictatorship".

I just think we've reached a point where MPs are not in touch with their people, and if they use social media, they're likely in an "information bubble" too, because that's what social media does.

If you email an MP, it first goes to their assistant. Then _they_ decide if the MP reads it. And I didn't vote for their assistant. That m0f0 could have their own agenda. I sent 3 emails to Jacinda - 1 was forwarded to her, 1 was ignored (because it wasn't nice), and 1 got forwarded to Chris Hipkins. I emailed Shane Reti - his assistant replied to tell me to go on Facebook (get fucked). Winston Peters was the only one who replied personally with a well thought out reply (although this incident was a few years ago now). They're busy people, I appreciate that - but surely a platform where people can openly discuss and others can chime in and have their say too would distribute some of this "fleshing out" of ideas.

I've had ideas of a platform where this sort of thing can go on - it can't be linear, it has to be a tree-like structure, broken down by supporting/opposing arguments/logic so it can be easily navigated and understood. I won't dwell on the details - it's just an idea in my head for now - but I think our systems COULD be improved from the current system where we effectively have no say/no information.

Sorry, I'm getting off-topic. $29B is ridiculous for light rail from CBD to Mangere that I will never ride. Get some electric buses to run the route and call it a day.

[Lightspeed]

It's too expensive, implementing it, participating in it.

The energy required to digest complex information suitable for a general audience, the energy the general audience requires to consume what's produced. An election every four years is much more cost-effective for most of the population, with their energy already committed to their workplaces, childrearing, self-and-other-care.

Besides, having a good idea that works isn't enough, if you want change it needs to be done within the existing systems of power.

[pxpx]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politi...R3PCEC5ARDLYI/

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern accepts cost of living crisis - petrol tax cuts among Government options to ease burden

Too late guys, you're out the door next go-round.

[sidbo]

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political...cost-of-living

[oprah]
You get 50c. You get 50c. Everyone gets 50c.
[/oprah]

[Cyberbob]

And yet a majority of New Zealand would get more from Act's 50c lolly mix than from National's tax cuts.

[blynk]

Originally Posted by sidbo

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political...cost-of-living

[oprah]
You get 50c. You get 50c. Everyone gets 50c.
[/oprah]

Hang on a minute. So ACT is proposing a UBI

[Trigger]

TOP fixes all of everything

https://www.top.org.nz/