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Old 1st February 2017, 03:25     #161
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing
Read some literature in the field then.
Read some literature in the field? Are you serious? Are you going to suggest anything in particular or is that it?


Quote:
The view that what we have fails to be worthy of the name 'democracy' is not uncommon.
The doesn't mean such a view is accurate or useful.
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Old 1st February 2017, 07:44     #162
pxpx
 
Cheesy grin

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Old 1st February 2017, 07:57     #163
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Hmmm... the weather is supposed to be good today...
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Old 1st February 2017, 21:59     #164
Nothing
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
Read some literature in the field? Are you serious? Are you going to suggest anything in particular or is that it?
First, it's not my job to educate you.

Second, if I thought you were really totally incapable of finding anything yourself I'm sure I'd be willing to help you out, but google exists and I'm pretty sure you know how to use it. Don't you prefer me giving you the benefit of the doubt, rather than simply assuming you're an idiot?

Third, even if I were to make a recommendation to you, you would probably ridicule it, so I would rather you find the material yourself. That way, you'll be less likely to discount what any particular author has said simply because I made a recommendation. Additionally, if there are authors that I might recommend who you would reject out of hand, then by not making any specific recommendation I allow you to exercise your own discretion with regards to who you decide to pay attention to in terms of evaluating credibility.

Since it's not exactly an uncommon view, as I have already mentioned, unless you are rejecting views which differ from your own as a result of being unable to see past your own internal cognitive biases I'm sure that a small investment of time on your part will yield you with plenty of material which would allow you to read arguments on both sides.This is especially true since anyone doing a good job of arguing either side of the discussion usually does their best to also present the opposing view in a reasonably charitable fashion before criticising it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
The doesn't mean such a view is accurate or useful.
No, the fact that a view in some field or other is at least not hard to find does not automatically make it correct, but my comment arose because you 'failed to see' (couldn't understand? can't imagine? that sort of thing?) how there might be no democracy.

Well, I'm simply pointing out that your failure to see doesn't mean that there is an absence of a case to be made. Which is, if you think about it, quite similar to your point that a view being common doesn't make it correct.

Last edited by Nothing : 1st February 2017 at 22:02.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 07:41     #165
fixed_truth
 
Heh. Maybe major news networks are out of touch with 'America'? Maybe 'America' is out of touch with the world?!? Maybe it's one of those issues where those not outspoken agree with what's happening but keep it to themselves?


More Americans support Donald Trump's immigration ban than oppose it, poll shows

Quote:
New polling suggests that Donald Trump's executive order to impose a temporary block on immigrants from seven Muslim-majority countries has the support of nearly one in two Americans.

When asked "do you agree or disagree with the executive order that President Trump signed blocking refugees and banning people from seven Muslim majority countries from entering the US?", 49 per cent of respondents said they agreed with the policy.

This compares to 41 per cent who said that they disagreed with the policy, while the remaining 10 per cent did not know whether they agreed or disagreed.
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Last edited by fixed_truth : 2nd February 2017 at 07:42.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:13     #166
Juju
get to da choppa
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
Heh. Maybe major news networks are out of touch with 'America'? Maybe 'America' is out of touch with the world?!? Maybe it's one of those issues where those not outspoken agree with what's happening but keep it to themselves?


More Americans support Donald Trump's immigration ban than oppose it, poll shows
1200 people across 50 states surveyed. Or in other words, 24 people per state.


24 people.


That's gonna be hella accurate.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:27     #167
fixed_truth
 
That does seem like a really small sample size. But apparently it's the norm.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:32     #168
pxpx
 
It's been many many years since I did any stats maths mumbo jumbo so I googled:

http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm

146,311,000 registered voters in 'murica as of 2012
Go for a 95% confidence level, with 2.5% confidence interval
Sample size req'd = 1,537

Quote:
Originally Posted by the aforementioned website
The mathematics of probability proves the size of the population is irrelevant unless the size of the sample exceeds a few percent of the total population you are examining. This means that a sample of 500 people is equally useful in examining the opinions of a state of 15,000,000 as it would a city of 100,000.

Last edited by pxpx : 2nd February 2017 at 09:33.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:57     #169
[Malks] Pixie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
Maybe it's one of those issues where those not outspoken agree with what's happening but keep it to themselves?
There's an actual name for these types of occurrences called Spiral of Silence theory (sorry linked to Wiki as it seems most people are allergic to actual academic articles). Worth while to note the criticisms section.

Of course like any theory it can't be taken in isolation and you need to factor in things like Agenda Setting / Framing theories, Encoding/Decoding of media messages, the role of social & cultural capital within subcultures etc etc.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:24     #170
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pxpx
It's been many many years since I did any stats maths mumbo jumbo so I googled:

http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm

146,311,000 registered voters in 'murica as of 2012
Go for a 95% confidence level, with 2.5% confidence interval
Sample size req'd = 1,537
That all holds true unless you cherry-pick your sample. Then it can be skewed in whatever the heck way suits your agenda.

Not saying that's what's happening here, but it HAS happened before in US politics.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 11:23     #171
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
I think almost 1 in 2 Americans believe Jesus Christ is going to return some day, dead people are going to come back to life, and God actually blesses America when you command him to.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 15:53     #172
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing
First, it's not my job to educate you.
Holy crap. That's a big turgid post of some of the most asinine shit I've seen from you. I'm going to cut through all your crap. If you've made an assertion that executive orders are somehow undemocratic then the burden of proof is on you to back your argument up with something. You've got a brain, right? So use it to explain your point of view.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 02:17     #173
Nothing
 
I don't think I've claimed that as my point of view, or made the claim that executive orders are undemocratic, in this discussion. I've just said that it's a point of view that I can understand. Since it's something you seem to have quite a bit of trouble grasping, and it's not a particularly uncommon point of view, I've suggested you make some effort to get to grips with it. You can take the suggestion or leave it, but I'll not be baited into your bullshit.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 09:54     #174
Juju
get to da choppa
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crocos
That all holds true unless you cherry-pick your sample. Then it can be skewed in whatever the heck way suits your agenda.

Not saying that's what's happening here, but it HAS happened before in US politics.
The official survey:

http://www.ipsos-na.com/download/pr.aspx?id=16379


From the above:


"The sample for this study was randomly drawn from Ipsos’s online panel (see link below for more info on “Access
Panels and Recruitment”), partner online panel sources, and “river” sampling (see link below for more info on the
Ipsos “Ampario Overview” sample method) and does not rely on a population frame in the traditional sense. Ipsos
uses fixed sample targets, unique to each study, in drawing sample. After a sample has been obtained from the
Ipsos panel, Ipsos calibrates respondent characteristics to be representative of the U.S. Population using standard
procedures such as raking-ratio adjustments. The source of these population targets is U.S. Census 2015 American
Community Survey data. The sample drawn for this study reflects fixed sample targets on demographics. Post-hoc
weights were made to the population characteristics on gender, age, region, race/ethnicity and income.
Statistical margins of error are not applicable to online polls. All sample surveys and polls may be subject to other
sources of error, including, but not limited to coverage error and measurement error. Where figures do not sum to
100, this is due to the effects of rounding. The precision of Ipsos online polls is measured using a credibility interval.
In this case, the poll has a credibility interval of plus or minus 3.2 percentage points for all respondents (see link
below for more info on Ipsos online polling “Credibility Intervals”). Ipsos calculates a design effect (DEFF) for each
study based on the variation of the weights, following the formula of Kish (1965). This study had a credibility
interval adjusted for design effect of the following (n=1,201, DEFF=1.5, adjusted Confidence Interval=4.7).
The poll also has a credibility interval plus or minus 5.2 percentage points for Democrats, plus or minus 5.1
percentage points for Republicans, and plus or minus 9.2 percentage points for Independents (see link below for
more info on Ipsos online polling “Credibility Intervals”)."


Take from that, what you will...
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Old 3rd February 2017, 15:32     #175
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing
I don't think I've claimed that as my point of view
MadMax made that claim - that is what I was referring to. You jumped in and made your weak assertion that it's a common point of view. Well so fucking what? That is absolutely meaningless and you're stupid if you can't understand that a viewpoint being popular doesn't make it valid.

If the idea that executive order are undemocratic is not your point of view, then why the fuck are you even here? What are you contributing to the conversation? Try to wrap your weak brain around the timeline here. MadMax claimed that EO's aren't democratic and couldn't articulate why. Then you jumped in and said it's a not uncommon view and couldn't articulate why. So you've added nothing except for being a complete and utter numpty.

Kindly fuck off until you have something of substance to share with the group.
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Old 3rd February 2017, 17:47     #176
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 


hey look it's the master race

http://time.com/4657665/steve-bannon-donald-trump/
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Old 3rd February 2017, 18:26     #177
The Edge
 
Ewwww...that guy is scary. Some have actually referred to him as "President Bannon" as Trump just does everything he tells him to.
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Old 4th February 2017, 16:12     #178
MadMax
Stuff
 
A US judge has put a nationwide block on President Donald Trump's week-old executive order barring nationals from seven countries from entering the United States.
well. did not actually see that coming.
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Old 4th February 2017, 16:15     #179
MadMax
Stuff
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
MadMax claimed that EO's aren't democratic and couldn't articulate why.
i thought i had ... ?

it's (was?) my impression that his EO's can't effectively be be overruled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMax
At those positions, to disagree with Trump would be career suicide.
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Old 4th February 2017, 18:09     #180
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMax
it's (was?) my impression that his EO's can't effectively be be overruled.
That's wrong. "[E]xecutive orders are subject to judicial review and may be struck down if deemed by the courts to be unsupported by statute or the Constitution."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order

That's some pretty light reading. It'll answer all your questions.

Oh, I'll point out also that EO's do not constitute legislation in an of themselves.

Another thing I'll point out is that federal judges can't be easily removed from office (executive/legislative/judicial branches and all that entails). Trump can't just up and fire a federal judge because he got into a twitter-rage. That really would be undemocratic.
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Last edited by CCS : 4th February 2017 at 18:12.
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Old 4th February 2017, 19:20     #181
MadMax
Stuff
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
That's wrong. ".
you're really not getting me. it _should_ be wrong, and legally, it is. However the situation with Trump is that it's simply not the case

did you miss my quote at the end of that post?

Sure, it's "subject to judicial review" however my concern is that noone will stand up and challenge him.
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Last edited by MadMax : 4th February 2017 at 19:22.
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Old 4th February 2017, 19:33     #182
Lightspeed
 
How do we determine whether the decisions of our leaders are democratic or not?
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Old 4th February 2017, 20:09     #183
MadMax
Stuff
 
You ask, What would Jesus do? And if he agrees then it's OK.
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Old 4th February 2017, 20:42     #184
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMax
you're really not getting me. it _should_ be wrong, and legally, it is. However the situation with Trump is that it's simply not the case
I don't understand what you mean when you say "with Trump is that it's simply not the case". Can you actually back that up in any way? You do realise a judge has already ordered a temporary restraining order on Trump's travel/immigration EO, right? He has ruled that two states have standing to challenge Trump's EO.

Let me say again: you are wrong. Trump's EOs can be overruled.

Quote:
did you miss my quote at the end of that post?
No I didn't miss that. I responded to it. Did you miss my response? Here it is again:

Another thing I'll point out is that federal judges can't be easily removed from office (executive/legislative/judicial branches and all that entails). Trump can't just up and fire a federal judge because he got into a twitter-rage. That really would be undemocratic.

If you believe that a judge challenging Trumps EO is career suicide, can you explain how exactly that is?


Quote:
Sure, it's "subject to judicial review" however my concern is that noone will stand up and challenge him.
Did you have any of these concerns with any of Obama's executive orders? Or George Bush's EOs? Or Bill Clinton's EOs? Or Eisenhower? Or Lincoln?
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Old 4th February 2017, 21:55     #185
Lightspeed
 
o_O

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMax
You ask, What would Jesus do? And if he agrees then it's OK.
Do you have a reply that isn't nonsense?
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Old 5th February 2017, 13:35     #186
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
bizarro world

Trump on Fox:

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Old 5th February 2017, 14:09     #187
MadMax
Stuff
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
I don't understand what you mean when you say "with Trump is that it's simply not the case". Can you actually back that up in any way? You do realise a judge has already ordered a temporary restraining order on Trump's travel/immigration EO, right? He has ruled that two states have standing to challenge Trump's EO.

Let me say again: you are wrong. Trump's EOs can be overruled.



No I didn't miss that. I responded to it. Did you miss my response? Here it is again:

Another thing I'll point out is that federal judges can't be easily removed from office (executive/legislative/judicial branches and all that entails). Trump can't just up and fire a federal judge because he got into a twitter-rage. That really would be undemocratic.

If you believe that a judge challenging Trumps EO is career suicide, can you explain how exactly that is?




Did you have any of these concerns with any of Obama's executive orders? Or George Bush's EOs? Or Bill Clinton's EOs? Or Eisenhower? Or Lincoln?
Watch what happens to this judge: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ectid=11795042. No doubt via the same door as https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/u...memo.html?_r=0

I didn't have any issues with previous EO because honestly they weren't an issue or were before my time to have had concern.
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Last edited by MadMax : 5th February 2017 at 14:13.
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Old 5th February 2017, 14:18     #188
MadMax
Stuff
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Do you have a reply that isn't nonsense?
right ok ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
How do we determine whether the decisions of our leaders are democratic or not?
when an order is made by a leader that is generally disagreed upon and there are no checks in place for a rebuttal.

I really must clean this record cause the needle keeps jumping back
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Old 5th February 2017, 14:25     #189
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMax
Do you understand that the judge is a member of the judicial branch and the attorney general a member of the executive branch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMax
when an order is made by a leader that is generally disagreed upon and there are no checks in place for a rebuttal.
I thought it had already been clearly established that YES THERE ARE CHECKS IN PLACE FOR A REBUTTAL.

By the way, "generally disagreed upon" really is a pretty airy-fairy standard for something to be considered undemocratic, dontchathink?
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Old 5th February 2017, 23:39     #190
Lightspeed
 
Appeals court denies Trump administration request to immediately reinstate ban on travelers (sic) and refugees

You've now got two courts obstructing Trump's EO. If after legal process is followed the EO gets to stand, that's still a check on Trump's authority. The limits of EO should be obviously apparent. Wasn't it one of Obama's first orders to close down Guantanamo? That's shits still running.

Trump could find a way to burn the Reichstag and turn shit all upside down, and THEN he might have powers of dictator. But I'm not seeing it. Yet.
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Old 6th February 2017, 13:05     #191
Lightspeed
 
I think Trump's use of language has more of a 1984 vibe than Spicer's alternative facts. He reduces everything to very good, very bad, weak, very weak, strong, very strong.
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Old 6th February 2017, 15:02     #192
MadMax
Stuff
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Appeals court denies Trump administration request to immediately reinstate ban on travelers (sic) and refugees

You've now got two courts obstructing Trump's EO. If after legal process is followed the EO gets to stand, that's still a check on Trump's authority. The limits of EO should be obviously apparent. Wasn't it one of Obama's first orders to close down Guantanamo? That's shits still running.

Trump could find a way to burn the Reichstag and turn shit all upside down, and THEN he might have powers of dictator. But I'm not seeing it. Yet.
Yeah this result is of course good. I just hope he doesn't find some way of overruling it nor any consequences to the judge/courts involved.
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Old 6th February 2017, 15:31     #193
Caesar
 
So whats stopping Trump from firing this Judge like he did the last one?
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Old 6th February 2017, 15:40     #194
StN
I have detailed files
 
Oh no he didn't...
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Old 6th February 2017, 16:14     #195
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caesar
So whats stopping Trump from firing this Judge like he did the last one?
ummmm
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Old 6th February 2017, 16:21     #196
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Honestly, trying to discuss this shit with the likes of MadMax and now Caesar is like this scene from Zoolander.
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Old 6th February 2017, 17:02     #197
Caesar
 
Ohhh it was an Acting Attorney General... my mistake.
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Old 6th February 2017, 17:21     #198
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
At least you can admit it. Bravo to you sir.
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Old 7th February 2017, 09:57     #199
reac
Min Sicker Reac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...s_upon_us.html

Scary stuff.
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Old 7th February 2017, 10:47     #200
pxpx
 
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/worl...t-against-isis

The change in his manner when he stops reading and speaks using his own words is staggering (at about 00:58s)
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