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Old 8th July 2014, 21:03     #1
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Labour: all sex is rape unless you can prove otherwise

This came up in the pre-election thread but it's so gobsmackingly bizarro that it deserves its own thread.

Quote:
Rape accused would have to prove consent under Labour plan

The Labour Party's plan to reform the criminal justice system would mean that the accused in a rape case would have to prove consent to be found innocent -- a change it acknowledges as a monumental shift.

But Labour's justice spokesman Andrew Little said the current system is broken and in need of a major shake-up. The party favours an inquisitorial system, where a judge interviewed the alleged victim after conferring with prosecution and defence lawyers.

The policy would mean that in a rape case, if the Crown proved a sexual encounter and the identity of the defendant, it would be rape unless the defendant could prove it was consensual.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11289979
Guilty until proven innocent. That'll work.

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Old 9th July 2014, 07:54     #2
Rince
SLUTS!!!!!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Guilty until proven innocent.
similar to Part III (sections 49 to 56) of the UK's RIPA 2000 (another piece of poorly written legislation).
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Old 9th July 2014, 12:45     #3
Spoon1
Mmm... Sacrilicious
 
Quote:
it would be rape unless the defendant could prove it was consensual.
Surely this is the crux of the "problem" with rape cases at the moment. How do you prove consent or non-consent? Simply flipping it around doesn't solve that issue and shits all over "innocent until proven guilty".

There's already an assumed guilt by virtue of there being a case in the first place! Irrespective of what people might say, there has to be a doubt created "otherwise why are they on trial?".

Dumb shit is dumb.
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Old 9th July 2014, 15:42     #4
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Typical anti-Labour post from a well-known rightwing nutjob:

Quote:
This clearly violates the presumption of innocence affirmed in the Bill of Rights Act (not to mention the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, ICCPR, and every other major human rights instrument). Under that presumption, the state has to prove each and every aspect of its case ("the burden of proof is on he who declares, not on he who denies"). That's clearly not the case under Labour's proposal.

Our Supreme Court has already found that the presumption of supply in the Misuse of Drugs Act violates the Bill of Rights Act for exactly these reasons. They will draw exactly the same conclusion about this proposal - as will the UN Human Rights Commission.

I accept that rape cases are difficult to prove. This change will make them remarkably easier. If Labour gets its way, there will be a lot more convictions for rape. And a lot more of them will be of innocent people. We presume innocence because we believe it is far better for the guilty to go free than for the innocent to be punished. Labour clearly does not believe that any more.

A party which does not believe in and will not defend the presumption of innocence does not deserve your vote. All they deserve is your contempt. If they retain this policy, you should not vote Labour.
http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/20...innocence.html
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Old 10th July 2014, 18:48     #5
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoon1
How do you prove consent or non-consent?
I've been a juror on a rape case and the Crown how no difficulty convincing me the action undertaken was rape; the other jurors thought the same way too.
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Old 11th July 2014, 13:29     #6
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/n...ectid=11291109

Are Andrew Little and David Cunliffe, you know, aware of each other?
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Old 11th July 2014, 18:31     #7
Spoon1
Mmm... Sacrilicious
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Teapot
I've been a juror on a rape case and the Crown how no difficulty convincing me the action undertaken was rape; the other jurors thought the same way too.
What was the evidence?
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Old 11th July 2014, 20:10     #8
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoon1
What was the evidence?
This involved a series of incremental elements delivered as a well structured and entirely credible argument.
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Old 11th July 2014, 23:38     #9
Spoon1
Mmm... Sacrilicious
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Teapot
This involved a series of incremental elements delivered as a well structured and entirely credible argument.
Shall I take that to mean that you don't want to give details?

I'm just curious whether it was based on physical evidence or on someone's "word". Clearly if it's a he says/she says situation that's where the difficulties lie and where a change like this would have a larger impact.
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Old 11th July 2014, 23:49     #10
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoon1
Shall I take that to mean that you don't want to give details?
I'm not sure a juror is allowed to discuss those details. Could be mistaken, might be just during trial.
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Old 12th July 2014, 14:01     #11
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoon1
Shall I take that to mean that you don't want to give details?
Yep it's just far too much effort for me to do that justice.
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Old 1st May 2017, 11:34     #12
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Just when you thought it was safe to let Labour back near law and order:

Quote:
Labour is promising a radical overhaul of the way the justice system deals with sexual assault and rape cases if it wins the election.

Associate justice spokesperson for sexual and domestic violence Poto Williams said only 13 per cent of the sexual assault cases reported to police ended in a conviction and something needed to be done to address the "power imbalance".

Labour would change the system so that a victim was believed as a starting point, and that an accused would have to prove consent
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crim...used-denies-it
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Old 1st May 2017, 12:15     #13
Lightspeed
 
Yeah, that's what concerns most people. False accusations. Rapists acting with impunity? Well, that's just life isn't it. It's most definitely the status quo.

How about you get fucked, Ab?
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Old 1st May 2017, 12:25     #14
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
only 13 per cent of the sexual assault cases reported to police ended in a conviction
What does she think that number should be? 100%? 50%? She says "One thing we have to do is find out the numbers of false allegations that have been made" YOU'RE GODDAMNED RIGHT YOU DO! Otherwise how can you be talking about percentages of convictions in any meaningful way?!
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Old 1st May 2017, 12:30     #15
Lightspeed
 
Yeah, protect the innocent from false accusations! Protecting the innocent from rape? Meh, whatevs.

Cunts.
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Old 1st May 2017, 12:34     #16
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
"I don't pretend to have the legal nous in which to do this, but I'm comfortable that there is a way that we can work our way through this."
HEY NO SHIT, LADY.
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Old 1st May 2017, 13:45     #17
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Yeah, that's what concerns most people. False accusations. Rapists acting with impunity? Well, that's just life isn't it. It's most definitely the status quo.

How about you get fucked, Ab?
I would rather every single real actual rapist got away with it than one innocent person got treated as a rapist when he or she wasn't.

That's my limit. Zero innocent people treated as rapists.

What's yours?

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a fundamental pillar upon which the entire criminal justice system stands. If any sane voter ever needed a reason not to let Labour anywhere near the government benches, this is one. This is Labour proposing a policy that breaches the Bill of Rights Act, the UN Declaration of Human Rights, and the history of sane laws since Magna Carta.
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Old 1st May 2017, 15:11     #18
Delphinus
 
I think we can find some middle ground here. I personally know 4 girls who have been sexually assaulted in some way. Amount of convictions? 0. Because the current system does not make it easy for people (especially girls) who have been through a traumatic experience like that. I don't think that's fair.
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Old 1st May 2017, 15:23     #19
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
What are Labour's proposed consequences for someone who makes a false complaint under the new law? Is there any consequence? Do they distinguish between 'false complaint' and 'not enough evidence to convict/prosecute'? Or does that not exist at all? On account of Poto Williams not having enough nous?

Does this proposal apply only to female complainants or or to males as well? If there is no consequence for false complaints, can I then accuse Poto Williams of having raped me? The police would be obliged to take me at my word and waste a lot of time and money investigating her only to find that I completely made it all up for shits n giggles just to cause her trouble, knowing that I would suffer no consequence. Is that cool? Is that choice?
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Old 1st May 2017, 17:14     #20
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
I would rather every single real actual rapist got away with it than one innocent person got treated as a rapist when he or she wasn't.

That's my limit. Zero innocent people treated as rapists.

What's yours?

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a fundamental pillar upon which the entire criminal justice system stands. If any sane voter ever needed a reason not to let Labour anywhere near the government benches, this is one. This is Labour proposing a policy that breaches the Bill of Rights Act, the UN Declaration of Human Rights, and the history of sane laws since Magna Carta.
I pretty much agree with all this. Your concern is sound.

It's your *lack* of concern over the last nine years about any of National's policies that directly interfere with that would seek justice, should they believe justice might be found, that disgusts me.

You're fucking quick to pick up on the impotent murmurings of the opposition, by what fucks do you give about what National's actually doing to screw over the country?

Since National came to power it is literally easier to perpetrate sex crime and get away with it. Can you tell I'm mad about that?
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Old 1st May 2017, 17:32     #21
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
NZ seems to be in a bad way. From what I can see--at a distance--I am in complete agreement with your assessment that the mental health system is nonfunctional, although being distanced from it I don't have the level of personal rage that you exhibit.

But it's the same here in Australia. And fuck, check out the opioid epidemic in the USA, and Trump, and Brexit. Everything's going to shit all at once everywhere.

Rightish parties won't help because they're conservative. They're the "everything will be OK if we just stay the course" people. Leftish parties are crying THE END IS NIGH but can't help because Leftish internal purges have eliminated all the competent people, and only parties that win elections can do anything.

No shit, I'm closer to moving home than I have been at any time in the past 18 years because Australia feels fucking doomed. NZ actually looks like a country in better shape.
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Old 1st May 2017, 17:41     #22
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Ab raped me.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 11:35     #23
crocos
 
You would be so lucky.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 11:43     #24
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
crocos raped me.



I didn't feel it though, so it's all good.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 13:07     #25
Cyberbob
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphinus
I think we can find some middle ground here. I personally know 4 girls who have been sexually assaulted in some way. Amount of convictions? 0. Because the current system does not make it easy for people (especially girls) who have been through a traumatic experience like that. I don't think that's fair.
While I appreciate the sensitive and traumatic side of having to relive the experiences in a court, there really isn't much in the way of middle ground as far as a conviction goes. You can't be a little bit innocent or a little bit guilty. It is black and white, as is the presumption of innocence.

4 girls assaulted with 0 convictions is awful, but 0 girls assaulted with 4 convictions is far worse.

What is fair is the right to a fair trial.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 17:01     #26
StN
I have detailed files
 
Oh it's Poto. Nuff said.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 18:00     #27
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
crocos raped me.



I didn't feel it though, so it's all good.
Hotdog / subway tunnel
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Old 2nd May 2017, 20:29     #28
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
More like "Is it in yet?"
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Old 3rd May 2017, 10:37     #29
crocos
 
Well, anything short of a blue whale...
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Old 3rd May 2017, 14:25     #30
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
I guess you're a grower, not a shower huh?
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Old 4th May 2017, 13:32     #31
Jodi
 
The way rape is treated in NZ is crap.

The knee jerk reaction would be "believe the accuser and assume the accused is guilty until proven innocent ... but just for rape"

The right then wring their hands "but then all the girls would accuse all the men of being rapists." Well, of course the would. But I would assume in roughly the same numbers of rapists that get away with it atm.

The last graphic I saw said that for every 100 rapes, 13 are reported, 5 go to trial and only 1 is a false accusation (or thereabouts).

So there is that knee jerk again "I would be happy for 1 innocent to be imprisoned if it meant the other 99 rapists also go to jail" (bonus points if you mention the French legal system)

No, as Ab mentioned, innocent unless proven guilty please. Because we're all fucking grown ups and can actually appreciate nuance.

No, what _needs_ to change, is the way the rape victim is treated when the accusation is processed. Hey, maybe, instead of treating the victim as a slutty man hater who was asking for it and also wants to ruin the accused's life. Just maybe, assume they are correct while also assuming the accused is innocent.

*GASP*

I have an idea on a better way, but I'm far from an expert, and I'm pretty sure the argument could be ripped to shreds.

1) Get the information needed for a conviction and then never bother the victim again.

Yea, that's the hard one. Most convictions drop because fuck reliving the rape over and over again while being aggressively questioned whether you're making it up. And then repeat that every 6 months for 3 years.

Instead the victim should have a statement taken, any physical evidence taken, and then be left alone forever (with name suppression). The prosecution should function from that point without the victim's involvement.

That's it. That's my fix.
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Old 4th May 2017, 17:50     #32
fixed_truth
 
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Old 4th May 2017, 20:09     #33
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/luke-lazar...04-gvyr4v.html

what a world
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Old 5th May 2017, 08:26     #34
Jodi
 
facepalm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Quote:
Judge Tupman found the woman's evidence that she said "stop" was unreliable partially on the basis she was wrong about other parts of the night.
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Old 5th May 2017, 10:12     #35
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
In the same way there are various "levels" of physical assault (assault with intent to injure, assault with a deadly weapon, common assault, injuring with/without intent, etc.), perhaps rape and sexual assault needs to be treated in a similar way.

While I admit I don't have the perfect set of categories, perhaps there could be recognition of deception used to gain consent, or consent given in an intoxicated state, or consent by intimidation (being too scared to say anything seems to be a common theme). These offenses might be met with fines/reparation rather than criminal conviction (like how speeding tickets are not crimes you declare to employers, although they are on your record). Repeat offences would establish a pattern of anti-social behaviour similar to being a rapist and could be dealt with as necessary.

It might set the bar a little lower so women are not afraid to speak up, men might find themselves having to think about their actions/morals, and if more women are speaking up about the same man repeatedly, corrective action can be taken. I don't know if less serious charges would spoil any of your weekend plans, but it does seem that too many sexual assaults go unreported/unconvicted.

Thoughts?
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Old 5th May 2017, 13:09     #36
Spoon1
Mmm... Sacrilicious
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Quote:
The judge deemed Mr Lazarus to be of good character.

After the act, Mr Lazarus asked the woman to add her name to a "trophy list" of women he kept in his phone.
Mmm, such good character.
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Old 5th May 2017, 14:29     #37
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Come on, all us good character dudebros fuck 18-yr-old girls in the arse outside our daddy's nightclubs. That's what good character is all about amirite
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Old 12th May 2017, 23:05     #38
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
NZ seems to be in a bad way. From what I can see--at a distance--I am in complete agreement with your assessment that the mental health system is nonfunctional, although being distanced from it I don't have the level of personal rage that you exhibit.
Social policy in general is fucked. Partly due to the hole left by the sagging mental health system, but also due to the general policy decisions National seem to be making.

Young Offenders Responsible for Violent Crimes

Quote:
“Police statistics paint a disturbing picture.

“The 15-19 year-old age group only make up 6% of the population, yet they commit a high number of the violent crimes we’ve seen around the country recently.

“These young offenders need to be held to account.

“While the amount of offending is a serious concern, it is worrying that the rate of offending is increasing at staggering levels in most regions.

“Between 2015 and 2016, the number of serious offences committed by 15-19 year olds increased in 10 of the 12 police districts.

“Robberies committed by teens in Waitemata and Southern Districts rose 40%, Northland and Canterbury increased over 50%, and Counties/Manakau is up by a staggering 80%.

“Sexual assaults committed by teens increased in 7 of the 12 police districts, with Waikato up 36% and Waitemata up 45%.

“Across the entire country burglaries committed by teens increased 13% and robberies by a massive 40%,” says Mr Ball.
Behaviour is impacted by complex factors it's true, and we have a good understanding of these factors and can be prepared with a complex response. Responses we're definitely capable of in NZ, most of which has been thrown out the window for the last 9 years.

You've got police dealing with lots more shit than they used to, CYF is all fucked up, now National is all "a wassa goin' on guys, we're all puzzled as shit, give us a hand eh?"

If I was cynical I would wonder about how this conveniently suits National's voter base. National can spin some more moderate version of whatever Winny cooks up, something consistent with their perpetual tough on crime stance, which now appears more important than ev4r.
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