NZGames.com Forums
Register FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Go Back   NZGames.com Forums > General > Open Discussion
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 28th July 2021, 15:52     #281
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Auckland University professors sign letter stating that while indigenous knowledge contributes to our understanding of the world, "it falls far short of what we can define as science".

They are

a) correct, and
b) gonna get smashed for this


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/scient...ZUTPYP2Q3CSLM/

You're not allowed to point out that the Emperor is naked.
Anthropology is a science - preservation of "Maori knowledge" is a valid scientific pursuit. Something that "contributes to our understanding of the world" sounds like it's increasing the amount of truth about what was known about the Maori peoples - irrespective of if that knowledge was ipso facto a reductive hard-science truth.

So frankly yes, they do deserve to get reamed for this.

Had a whole rant about history vs science, societal norms and moral evolution, but it was getting off topic, so this'll do.
__________________
Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ ☼ N

وكل يوم كنت تعيش في العبودية
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2021, 16:08     #282
xor
 
Agreed, which is why it'd be good know what the curriculum is for Maori Knowledge and its contents.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2021, 16:10     #283
crocos
 
All that aside, yes certainly some Maori knowledge is trashy pseudoscientific BS, but a lot of it is accurate observations & predictions, just the underlying causes are not actually understood.

The same can be said of much of "western" science - indeed a lot of the Maori knowledge when compared to where the anglo-saxon knowledge at about the same level of tech? Quite advanced in comparison - it was often the surrounding cultures that were the bastions of science.
__________________
Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ ☼ N

وكل يوم كنت تعيش في العبودية
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2021, 17:19     #284
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xor
What is Maori knowledge? I know ol' mate lolspeed doesn't like definitions but could ya throw a dog a bone?
Some good info here with examples

Quote:
mātauranga Māori includes knowledge generated using techniques consistent with the scientific method, but explained according to a Māori world view
__________________
Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2021, 18:10     #285
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crocos
All that aside, yes certainly some Maori knowledge is trashy pseudoscientific BS, but a lot of it is accurate observations & predictions, just the underlying causes are not actually understood.

The same can be said of much of "western" science - indeed a lot of the Maori knowledge when compared to where the anglo-saxon knowledge at about the same level of tech? Quite advanced in comparison - it was often the surrounding cultures that were the bastions of science.
I literally cannot understand what you're saying here.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2021, 22:19     #286
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Science is only one paradigm of knowledge. Responsible for many wonders and many horrors. Science offers no protection from itself. We absolutely need other forms of knowledge to maximise our chances of survival.
Quote:
The power structures that have privileged Europeans economically over time, are the same power structures that have privileged European knowledge systems over time, and just as the economic power and privilege of these events endure today, so too does the privilege and power within the science sector still endure today.
Quote:
Like all other social institutions, science has its own power structure and it has developed power hierarchies over time precisely because of its involvement in the global colonial project. When I refer to knowledge systems I mean research, education, academia, scientific practice and publications, the evaluation and funding of science, the access to science and the legitimacy of science and its relationship to policy and government.
https://tinangata.com/2021/07/25/def...lonial-racism/
__________________
Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th July 2021, 23:47     #287
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
I respect Tina Ngata's work and I have found many of her articles insightful. But she's referring to the social institutions that have grown up around the people and organisations that do scientific work, not to science the system.

Observations that those who benefit from power structures can impose knowledge systems are a dime a dozen, but here's another one: what if it's the knowledge system that gave them the power?

What if societies that adopt an attitude of the best explanation wins, and if observation contradicts our traditional knowledge then we should assume that the traditional knowledge was wrong tend to succeed? What if societies that privilege belief over reality tend to lose? Boy, what a fucked up idea.
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2021, 00:57     #288
Lightspeed
 
Because science the system only ever exists within human systems. However ideal science the system is, it's through biology it's expressed.

We've seen how "the best explanation wins" plays out. The people we like the most just seem to have the best explanations. The best explanation turns into the only explanation. Those people over there for whom a not-so-great explanation works better? Fuck 'em.

Our systems of knowledge can't be abstracted from how we know. And we know this. Not everyone gets it yet, but the people doing the work do. Dinosaurs will go extinct as is inevitable.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2021, 01:17     #289
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
The people we like the most just seem to have the best explanations.
The thing about science is that it can show you that you only liked the explanation because of the person saying it. An explanation is good only when it is just as good when said by someone else. Even someone you can't stand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
The people we like the most just seem to have the best explanations.
Yeah, which is why when a nobody working in an Austrian post office said he thought he had a better explanation of motion and gravity than the immortal Isaac Newton, he got torched and we don't care about his dumb ideas and nobody remembers his name.

Then there was that time when a priest from some hick town in Belgium said he thought he had a better explanation for the weird positions of galaxies than the immortal Albert Einstein, and he got torched and everyone acknowledges that the universe isn't expanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
The people we like the most just seem to have the best explanations.
It's hard to even imagine the level of bravery it would require to say "actually, I think the 100% true magic book is wrong" just about anywhere, anytime in the past 2000 years. But you know what? Some people did it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2021, 07:18     #290
Redneck
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
post office
ahem, patent office
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2021, 13:31     #291
Lightspeed
 
Ab, you're talking about a kind of science that doesn't exist except in rare extremes.

The people doing the work, those in the thick of it, they're attending to what's actually going on.

It's only from the luxury of an armchair that science exists in the way you describe Ab.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2021, 14:18     #292
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Ab, you're talking about a kind of science that doesn't exist except in rare extremes.

The people doing the work, those in the thick of it, they're attending to what's actually going on.

It's only from the luxury of an armchair that science exists in the way you describe Ab.
You're preaching to the choir here, you know that when it comes to a jaded pessimistic view of human nature I'm off the charts. But that's why science is so awesome - it helps us identify the true stuff even though we're shitty tribal apes one insult away from beating each other to death. It helps us identify the stuff that's true whether we believe in it or not.

"The people doing the work"? wtf? Every time a child makes a volcano out of baking soda and vinegar and confirms something he or she was told about gas they're doing the work. Every time you can't work out why your net speeds are shitty and you isolation test the network components one by one to identify the problem you're doing the work. Science is a system.
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2021, 14:36     #293
Lightspeed
 
We can still pursue "true stuff", but we need to stop prioritising what's true over what's effective.

It can be seen in these very discussions, the drive for certainty, for absoluteness. The upset we see when the world isn't ruled by English definitions.

It will get us killed. I'll take wrong and alive over dead right.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2021, 14:38     #294
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
"The people doing the work"? wtf? Every time a child makes a volcano out of baking soda and vinegar and confirms something he or she was told about gas they're doing the work. Every time you can't work out why your net speeds are shitty and you isolation test the network components one by one to identify the problem you're doing the work. Science is a system.
No, that's playing. I mean people engaging in effort and discipline. Not podcast wizards.

Yes, science is a system. It's not static. It grows. It's grown since you last checked in.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2021, 15:44     #295
Lightspeed
 
I think the transition that's difficult to grasp is the olden days approach of finding out the truth to the contemporary approach of finding what works.

Pronouncements from on high don't work, not well enough. That's the old way, got a lot of people fucked up.

Most societies that have failed in... all of history? Got murdered, right? I dunno, I haven't seen a study. It's just... I see a lot more people getting murdered, than stumbling on their own feet.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.

Last edited by Lightspeed : 29th July 2021 at 15:45.
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2021, 20:14     #296
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
I literally cannot understand what you're saying here.
Simple words, reduced to almost absurdity:
  • Just because it's not whitey, doesn't mean it's wrong.
  • At physical technology levels equivalent to Maori when Europeans arrived, Maori science was at least as advanced as when Europeans were at that point - even if that point was far earlier.
__________________
Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ ☼ N

وكل يوم كنت تعيش في العبودية
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2021, 21:44     #297
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Examples?
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th July 2021, 23:44     #298
crocos
 
Astronavigation would be the first reference. Tidal and lunar cycles were well documented in Maori oral tradition. I'm sure there's other examples, but that's a start.
__________________
Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ ☼ N

وكل يوم كنت تعيش في العبودية
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th July 2021, 11:54     #299
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
In what way were the Maori astronavigators and oral historians of tides and lunar cycles "at least as advanced" as Stone Age inhabitants of Europe? Or anywhere else?

It seems like a claim that's both unprovable and unfalsifiable. That is to say, unscientific.
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th July 2021, 13:53     #300
Lightspeed
 
I get you've got your privileged definition of science. However coming up for a name for a phenomena does not grant one authority over it.

Science is what humans have done probably since before we were humans. You watch a toddler in a playground, you'll see a human performing science.

Now, you and many others might be enthralled by the Queen and her majesty, but frankly, I think her Vs are far from consummate.

I mean, I get it. She's a lovely Mum. But at some point we all have to kill the parents. Else we get stuck as children.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.

Last edited by Lightspeed : 30th July 2021 at 13:54.
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th July 2021, 14:39     #301
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Science is what humans have done probably since before we were humans. You watch a toddler in a playground, you'll see a human performing science.
No, THAT's playing. What are you, some sort of podcast wizard?

*follows the logic* Oh right, the definition is not static, it's *checks* just you granting a name for a phenomena and having authority over it... what? killing parents? All you see is murder?

What does that mean?


I think the point is not whether or Maori knowledge is science, but whether or not white people are the devil. These silly academics getting caught up in definitions of science, ignoring the screaming "Eurocentric dominance" aka accusations of white supremacy - by all white people - aspect.
__________________
Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand...
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th July 2021, 14:48     #302
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
No, THAT's playing. What are you, some sort of podcast wizard?
No. I've studied the work of the likes of Erik Erickson, Donald Winnicott, Margaret Mahler, John Bowlby, Mary Ainsworth, Jean Piaget. That's just what I can remember off the top of my head.

What are you bringing?
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th July 2021, 14:58     #303
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
I've studied the work of the likes of Erik Erickson, Donald Winnicott, Margaret Mahler, John Bowlby, Mary Ainsworth, Jean Piaget.
German, English, Hungarian, English, American, Swiss
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th July 2021, 15:05     #304
Lightspeed
 
You might find this interesting reading:

https://openrepository.aut.ac.nz/handle/10292/500
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2021, 12:12     #305
Lightspeed
 
I disagree with Hank here:

Can You Trust Science Too Much?

I don't believe science is human created. Science is a part of being human.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.

Last edited by Lightspeed : 31st July 2021 at 12:13.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st August 2021, 17:45     #306
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
I don't believe science is human created. Science is a part of being human.
If we wipe ourselves out and over the next few millions of years environmental pressures select another species for intelligence like our African ape ancestors were, those distant descendants of rats or cockroaches or axolotls will develop the scientific method and they will work out the mass of the electron and the speed of light and spectral signatures of stars and the germ theory of disease and evolution by natural selection. Maybe they'll have their own 100% true magic books and go through the intellectual growing pains of leaving those books behind in the search for truth about the universe. But it won't require the presence of homo sapiens at all.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st August 2021, 19:20     #307
Lightspeed
 
Or maybe they won't be so arrogant, never considering themselves able to grasp the truth, instead pursuing what works. Never wiping themselves out, transcending beyond mortal limits?
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st August 2021, 23:58     #308
Redneck
 
Oh brother. Lock thread please.
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2021, 00:49     #309
Lightspeed
 
Part of the consideration is the history of science, how it actually plays out as compared to what it apparently is. Because inescapably, whatever science is, it only exists within human systems.

By keeping science as a privileged term in the way it is, we actually undermine our efforts to produce robust, effective knowledge. By saying science is only this we foreclose other forms of knowledge maturing that exist in the world, especially where the knowledge doesn't fit current dominant sensibilities. The obvious example is indigenous knowledge. It gets ignored, left to languish because it's "not science".

Maybe if we hadn't been so enthralled with science in the 1900s, with all the horrors we wrought with it, if it hadn't become so hyper-privileged, maybe things would be different. Maybe it could remain specialised and particular.

But that's not what's happened. It's really important we don't ignore that the science we do is only a subset of what could be done, and there are complex reasons to what we do actually investigate scientifically. And all the impacts of that.

Science is NOT and has NEVER BEEN purely the ideal it's proposed to be. Anyone trying to hold up science as this ideal, anyone who insists on it won't find themselves able to hold onto positions of authority within academia. This doesn't prevent anyone from adhering to this ideal, assuming they can find funding, which is the case for all science.

The high ideals of old fashioned science are a delightful fantasy... we know because of the countless lives that have suffered the harsh edge of reality that is the price of this fantasy.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.

Last edited by Lightspeed : 2nd August 2021 at 00:50.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2021, 11:01     #310
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
In what way were the Maori astronavigators and oral historians of tides and lunar cycles "at least as advanced" as Stone Age inhabitants of Europe? Or anywhere else?

It seems like a claim that's both unprovable and unfalsifiable. That is to say, unscientific.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2021, 12:45     #311
Lightspeed
 
You can keep your honky science, Ab. We've seen how that plays out. The rest of us are moving on to something better.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2021, 14:39     #312
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Rolling eyes

Argument from peer pressure.
__________________
Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand...
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2021, 11:26     #313
fixed_truth
 
^Now you're starting to get it. Scientific studies takes money & resources so better for you if you're doing what the funders want.
__________________
Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2021, 16:37     #314
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
Scientific studies takes money & resources
Experimenting with wood ash cement in bare feet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP0t2MmOMEA

Quote:
I think I have the chemistry right. If any chemists are watching correct me if I'm wrong. The calcium compounds are converted to calcium oxide in the second firing, turn to calcium hydroxide in the water and then set to calcium carbonate in the air. There maybe a pozzolanic effect due to the alumina and silica in the ash too. The end product is a cube made only from wood ash (fired twice) and crushed pottery. It sets hard after 3 days and will not dissolve in water even when fully submerged for 24 hours. Thanks.
__________________
Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand...

Last edited by DrTiTus : 5th August 2021 at 16:38.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2021, 17:06     #315
Lightspeed
 
What are you suggesting? This fellow represents a typical person seeking knowledge, wood ash cement a typical problem a person would liked solved?

I notice the video has a significant number of views, potentially generating at least some amount of revenue.

I also note the gentleman has the opportunity to pursue these interests, rather than being compelled to work to meet material needs, perhaps debt obligations.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2021, 18:10     #316
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
You are confusing the system of science with the practice of entrepreneurship. Sometimes they're connected, but not necessarily.
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th August 2021, 07:36     #317
xor
 
You guys would argue about what colour the sky is. Jesus, just stop. You're all idiots for engaging.
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th August 2021, 09:55     #318
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
You’re right, will prune.

Edit: have pruned.
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st August 2021, 16:48     #319
Lightspeed
 
NASA Has Completed Work on the James Webb Space Telescope

I'm so excited about this. And nervous about the launch and deployment.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2021, 13:41     #320
Lightspeed
 
This is fascinating:

Something Mysterious Near The Galactic Center Is Flashing Radio Signals

Basically there's some intermittently visible object near the galactic core that's only visible at radio frequencies, so not visible at IR/visible/x-ray/gamma frequencies.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



© Copyright NZGames.com 1996-2023
Site paid for by members (love you guys)