nCoV 2019

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Your whole bit is focused around what you imagine people think.

It's focused around what we're being told regularly by the world famous mongol Greta Thunberg, and how our government is trying to phase out fossil fuels and move everyone to electric vehicles, and shutting down our oil refineries, etc. It's based on America making the same mistake, and these policies coming not from the people making democratic decisions, but by a global body that dictates to our democratically elected leaders what they must/should do. So yes, you're correct, but if you have a different view of what people think it would be constructive to share that or correct me than simply try to silence my rant.

[Nich]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1672...ature=youtu.be

NSW and VIC scared the shit out of people so much that when they took QR code check-in away, people reported they were afraid to go out without track and trace. So they put QR stickers back, but stopped collecting the data... just to heal people's psyche.

NSW and VIC mirrored eachother's restrictions so they could just say "We can't be wrong because look at the other state doing the same thing!"

"Depleted confidence". Absolute psychos. At least I keep my psychopathic impulses in check (stab a kitten, poison ducks in the lake.. you know, the usual stuff), these people are unscrupulous.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

It's focused around what we're being told regularly by the world famous mongol Greta Thunberg, and how our government is trying to phase out fossil fuels and move everyone to electric vehicles, and shutting down our oil refineries, etc.

You do you gubna, but maybe have a go at all that, rather than projecting all this noise on us.

This is what you're about.

It's really difficult to engage when you place inside of me/us things that don't fit. The result is that I/we are mostly just trying to push out what you're pushing in. I'm speaking for myself but I sense my experience is shared, I'm not suggesting universally.

[Cyberbob]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

My friend has MCAS after being vaccinated.

I know it wasn't your main point, but people with MCAS have had a hell of a time with the covid vaccine. Your friend likely always had MCAS but no reaction's been severe enough to warrant a diagnosis until now.

My wife has MCAS - it's a common comorbidity of an underlying condition she has. We've known people with MCAS to have full blown anaphylaxis as a result of the vaccine.

My wife had a not-that-mild reaction to the first vaccine (numbness in the face, migraine for days, injection site was a tennis ball), and a worse reaction with the second. She genuinely wants to get the booster, but neither her GP or the covid hotline can give her a straight answer as to how to get the booster under the eye of a doctor in case the reaction is worse a third time.

They just shrug their shoulders and give the medical professional's accountability coat of arms.

[Nothing]

So here's another little thought on the vaccines, or at least the MRNA ones.

Here's what you might describe as a reasonable description of the MRNA vaccines:

The MRNA vaccines put a bit of the virus's RNA into your body in such a way that the body manufactures a limited quantity of spike proteins which are extremely similar to the spike proteins the virus uses to gain access to your cells, and so your immune system gets a bit of target practice on those spike proteins before it encounters the virus for real.

Now, the effect of the vaccines in most cases here, was to either:

1. Prevent infection entirely.

2. Drastically reduce the severity of infection

3. Drastically reduce the transmissibility of infected people.

Obviously, to some extent, some of these changed to some extent as newer variants popped up.

But here are a few points to be made about the above:

1. For the vast majority of people, there was never really an option to both not get the vaccine *AND* not get the virus. If enough people didn't get the vaccine, that only made it more likely that almost everyone would get the virus, since there was little to keep its spread in check. So if enough people didn't get the vaccine, it was more or less a given that just about everyone was going to get the virus.

2. The vaccine operated by putting 1 protein that the virus creates into you for target practice. A large number of the people who reacted badly to the vaccine were probably reacting badly to the protein that it put into them. If they hadn't had the vaccine, then they might not have had that bad reaction to it, but it seems likely to me that they then probably would have had an even worse reaction to the virus, because in that case their immune system wouldn't have had any opportunities for target practice *AND* they wouldn't just be dealing with one spike protein, they would have been dealing with that spike protein *AND* the other 28 proteins the virus manufactures *AND* it wouldn't have been in a set finite quantity, it would have been endless replication of all of those proteins until either their immune system managed to beat it or until they were dead, because they'd likely be dealing with whatever unfortunate side effects they had as a result of the vaccine at the *same time* as dealing with having *literal covid*.

Therefore:

3. Most likely, a very large number of the people that these fuckwit antivaxxers like to wank on about being vaccine injured could very well be dead right now if they hadn't had the vaccine.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Nich

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1672...ature=youtu.be

NSW and VIC scared the shit out of people so much that when they took QR code check-in away, people reported they were afraid to go out without track and trace. So they put QR stickers back, but stopped collecting the data... just to heal people's psyche.

NSW and VIC mirrored eachother's restrictions so they could just say "We can't be wrong because look at the other state doing the same thing!"

"Depleted confidence". Absolute psychos. At least I keep my psychopathic impulses in check (stab a kitten, poison ducks in the lake.. you know, the usual stuff), these people are unscrupulous.

Obviously the competence of political leaders across regions varies widely. The pandemic was absolutely a test of genuine competence over being able to put on a good show of it. I can understand having a loss of faith in those particular leaders. Hopefully for many the pandemic has been a wake up call to how politically complacent they've been and what's grown as a result.

[Nich]

1. Was never intended to stop infection (despite what Rachel Maddow says). No intramuscular vaccine will ever stop a virus that enters via airways.

2. mRNA creates spike protein "factories" in blood, heart, brain, ovaries etc by default ( https://pandemictimeline.com/wp-cont...government.pdf ), and continues to do so for up to 60 days ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8786601/ ), which causes Immune Imprinting so your body only knows how to fight Wuhan strain, and is more likely to be infected with future strains.

that were collected 7–60 days after the second dose of mRNA-1273 or BNT162b2 vaccination and detected vaccine mRNA collected in the GCs of LNs on days 7, 16, and 37 postvaccination, with lower but still appreciable specific signal at day 60

3. The more you vaccinate, the more COVID infection in society. This is in data from any country.


I still haven't caught COVID, I've been ready for 3 years taking all my anti-vaxx hippy remedies. Come on, I'm ready to be so sick I'll be admitted to hospital!

[Lightspeed]

I haven't had covid yet either. I did get a cold recently, first since before the pandemic, I'm still coughing. The infection has passed I just have "long-cold", or just the normal time it takes for the lungs to recover, at least in my experience.

Closest call with covid was having dinner with a friend and the next day him telling me he tested positive.

My main remedy is fruit every day, general health.

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by Cyberbob

I know it wasn't your main point, but people with MCAS have had a hell of a time with the covid vaccine. Your friend likely always had MCAS but no reaction's been severe enough to warrant a diagnosis until now.

Thanks for your input - I'd never come across MCAS before, so I read up to try and understand it after she told me how to use her epipen if she goes into shock again, and came across more people who claimed they received the diagnosis after being vaccinated. As I mentioned, I am not saying that this was definitely a vaccine induced condition - it could be, or it might not be. She got stung by a bee sometime after vaccination and went into anaphylactic shock and needed an ambulance to be called. After a second event (I'm not sure the circumstances/trigger) they persisted in seeking diagnosis, had to get samples taken from her pelvis(?) (drilling in to get bone marrow out or something :/) and it came back with MCAS, and quite severe at that.

My friend mentioned it was strange because she'd been stung by bees before, and never had a reaction like it. I found out there is an age component to it, and MCAS can develop over time, so that's definitely possible. I just find it weird that a lot of people are now having "medical events", and while it could definitely be an entire set of coincidences, there doesn't seem to be a push to find out the downsides. I would consider it important information. It doesn't affect me, so I'm not particularly fussed what the downsides are, but I find it hard to believe that it can kill a man, but not cause any other condition except death. Surely there are partial outcomes, ie damage to the body's function in some other way.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Nich

1. Was never intended to stop infection (despite what Rachel Maddow says). No intramuscular vaccine will ever stop a virus that enters via airways.

Sure, whatever, not an important enough point to be worth debating over.

Originally Posted by Nich

2. mRNA creates spike protein "factories" in blood, heart, brain, ovaries etc by default, [deleted article I literally can't read because it's in japanese, thanks for that solid source of evidence mart] and continues to do so for up to 60 days.

Yes, it causes your body to produce *limited quantity* of the spike protein, that continues for a period of time. In any event, the quantity of spike protein produced would *always* be less than what would be produced by the virus itself, because the vaccine, unlike the virus, provides no mechanism for the continued replication of the RNA responsible for the spike protein.

Originally Posted by Nich

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8786601/, which causes Immune Imprinting so your body only knows how to fight Wuhan strain, and is more likely to be infected with future strains.

I mean, that article you posted right there literally has this exact line of text in its introduction:

"It remains to be determined precisely how the immune system responds to mRNA and other vaccine platforms compared with SARS-CoV-2 infection."

So, yeah, that's some conclusive evidence you've got there, buddy.

Originally Posted by Nich

3. The more you vaccinate, the more COVID infection in society. This is in data from any country.

See, this is something I want to see a source for. I don't believe that's really the case. Or at least, I don't think it is the case in the way that you're kind of underhandedly implying that it is.

I think it's certainly true that we had a big wave of cases when Omicron got here, which was shortly after we had achieved relatively high vaccination levels with booster doses. But that doesn't imply that the vaccine made it easier for omicron to spread. If we'd behaved the way we did with the vaccine, but not been vaccinated, we probably would have had *even more* cases than we in fact did.

You're trying to imply that we had more cases because the vaccine somehow made people more susceptible to the virus than unvaccinated people, which just isn't true.

There are 2 reasons we had a lot of cases once omicron got here.

First, the vaccine was less effective against omicron than alpha / delta. That lower effectiveness doesn't mean tha the vaccine itself was making it easier for the virus to spread. The vaccine was still having a protective effect on people who were vaccinated.

But:

Second, once the majority of the population had received their booster shot, most people stopped worrying about getting the virus or spreading it so much, because they were protected by the vaccine. Since the vaccine wasn't stopping omicron as effectively as it stopped alpha and delta, the result of the more lax approach was that the virus spread. And this is exactly why the vaccine mattered, because this is exactly where we see the difference in case outcomes between NZ and the US. With our high vaccination rates, we had only a tenth of the death rate.

Originally Posted by Nich

I still haven't caught COVID, I've been ready for 3 years taking all my anti-vaxx hippy remedies. Come on, I'm ready to be so sick I'll be admitted to hospital!

Congratulations, you're a lucky fuckwit.

[_indigo1]

It sounds to me like you read up wrong.
I suffer from MCAS. It has nothing to do with bone marrow behaving badly.

You probably read up about mastocytosis.

EDIT: Too slow on the reply button. Obv reply to Titus.

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by Nothing

So here's another little thought on the vaccines, or at least the MRNA ones.

Appreciate your thoughts too, and I don't berate you for speculating as that's what we're all doing really. We all have our simplistic mental models of how it works, and what's happening, but there are definitely unintended consequences from most medicines, which we call side effects. In my mental model, the human body is a balanced system, so when you start fucking with it, you boost one part, to weaken other.

We can't run the experiment again, so we don't know whether Omicron was a beneficial result of vaccine evasion, or just a natural outcome. We can't be both vaccinated and unvaccinated at the same time, so we don't know whether particular outcomes in a particular individual are or are not caused by the vaccine or bad luck, or how they would have fared with COVID in both situations. I think the only "fault" in the response was the coercion and mandating of it, because side effects weren't known or disclosed, yet people suffered them, and many only took the vaccine because they were required to, yet from all statistics of those who fared worse, they don't fit the description (elderly). There wasn't a large number of unvaccinated young people dying, so we can't say that not being vaccinated was an absolutely terrible decision, unless you did fit the description, but hey, if they've paid taxes all their life, and want to give up now and take their chances of not receiving the pension anymore, go right ahead.

I think no matter which side of the fence you're on it's stupid to assume you have the whole picture, because obviously none of us do. However I think it's naive to say "the vaccines were without a doubt a success and perfect", just as it's ignorant to say "the vaccines are a depopulation tool and anyone who take them will be dead in 5 years". It's really a "wait and see" situation, because we're dealing with new technology, new treatments, and a whole lot of bad data.

I don't think much is gained by calling people fuckwits however, although I understand you're passionate, so feel free, it's just easier to engage when there's not abuse thrown around left right and center, it just escalates into an ego war.

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by _indigo1

It sounds to me like you read up wrong.
I suffer from MCAS. It has nothing to do with bone marrow behaving badly.

You probably read up about mastocytosis.

EDIT: Too slow on the reply button. Obv reply to Titus.

Yeah I think it is mastocytosis - I got the impression they were related... mast cell issues.

[_indigo1]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Yeah I think it is mastocytosis - I got the impression they were related... mast cell issues.

Similar but also very different.
MCAS is a LOT more common. It is just the mast cells losing their shit and degranulating at the drop of a hat - which is prone to happen when ones immune system is stirred up from comorbid issues.
But the quantity of them in the body is still normal.

Mastocytosis is a first-rate pathology in which the marrow pumps out way too MANY mast cells.

[_indigo1]

Do you guys think the flu jab works?
Or does it perhaps not work, and it has flown under the radar as we haven't had it scorch the globe in a pandemic the way COVID did.

:trollface:

[DrTiTus]

All I know is, if I develop anything, it wasn't from the vaccine.

As for the flu jab, I don't think it really works because I've had it before and still got sick ("that's how you know it's working!" thanks cunt, I wanted to avoid sickness, not help society). No one even gets influenza in the real world, they just get a cold :P I last got it because I like needles and attention, but this was years ago at university. Haven't bothered since. There was a Slashdot article a few months back that pointed out they were having a terrible season for the flu jab because they were mostly made from statistical analysis of what variants were in the wild, but due to lockdowns it was so variable by area, so it was really a lucky dip, and it was performing particularly poorly for most people.

I just trust my body, because all those things rely on your body/immune system to do the heavy lifting, and I've had good results so far, so "don't fix what isn't broken". I realize you're trolling because of trollface, but I'm still replying anyway.

[Nich]

when flu vaccines are chosen each year, they choose the strain they anticipate will be high prevalence in the upcoming season. If they choose the wrong strain, the immune system is trained to fight the wrong thing, and it increases sickness.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...rain-cdc-warns

Vaccine does not protect well against the dominant strain seen most commonly this year, which tends to cause more deaths and hospitalisations, CDC says

We've been injecting long-extinct Wuhan strain up to 3 to 4 to 5 boosters. How's that going for us?

https://twitter.com/mindybee14/statu...94586446557185
Pfizer VP says: “There is NO established correlative protection”


NSW Vaccine surveillance data from July:
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infect...w-20220730.pdf
The more NSW vaccinates, the more sickness and death.

ONS Deaths by Vaccination status:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...nstatusengland

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

In my mental model, the human body is a balanced system, so when you start fucking with it, you boost one part, to weaken other.

Yeah, no, sorry, that's not how that works. Sure, all models are wrong, but some are useful. Unfortunately, that broke ass model you have there isn't useful. You can definitely do better than that.

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

We can't run the experiment again, so we don't know whether Omicron was a beneficial result of vaccine evasion

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

We can't be both vaccinated and unvaccinated at the same time, so we don't know whether particular outcomes in a particular individual are or are not caused by the vaccine or bad luck, or how they would have fared with COVID in both situations.

So while this is true in some sense, it is nonetheless ignoring the fact that we do have multiple control cases where the virus got loose in unvaccinated populations and resulted in death rates multiple times higher than what we ended up with in our own population. When you keep account of that fact, the rest of what you're saying doesn't hold a lot of water.

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

I think the only "fault" in the response was the coercion and mandating of it, because side effects weren't known or disclosed, yet people suffered them, and many only took the vaccine because they were required to, yet from all statistics of those who fared worse, they don't fit the description (elderly).

I mean, I've already said this, but it's not like there was a choice to both not get the vaccine and not get covid, for most people. Plenty of healthy unvaccinated young people who got covid ended up with long lasting illness as a result. Long covid is something like 30 - 40% of cases. So, you know, if you're going to talk about vaccine injuries, don't forget to keep that in mind.

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

There wasn't a large number of unvaccinated young people dying, so we can't say that not being vaccinated was an absolutely terrible decision, unless you did fit the description

Sort of depends on what the goal is, don't you think? Like, if your goal is to protect vulnerable people, then it's a fucking great decision for those younger people to get vaccinated. Also, there were some healthy young unvaccinated people that didn't expect to die because of the virus who nonetheless *did die*. The vaccine probably would have seriously reduced the chances of that happening to them.

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

I think no matter which side of the fence you're on it's stupid to assume you have the whole picture, because obviously none of us do.

So, it's true that none of us should assume that we have the whole picture. However, it doesn't follow from that point that nobody has a better picture than anybody else. There are some of us who *definitely* have better pictures than others, and suggesting that we're all equally ignorant is just wrong.

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

However I think it's naive to say "the vaccines were without a doubt a success and perfect"

See, the thing is that 'perfect' is not the bar we need to clear with the vaccines, and not the claim that people who support the vaccines are making, so you're making a strawman there. The truth is that we don't even need the vaccines to be *close* to perfect. All the vaccines need to be is demonstrably better than covid without a vaccine, and that is a bar that they *absolutely do clear*. See my earlier comment on death rates.

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

It's really a "wait and see" situation, because we're dealing with new technology, new treatments, and a whole lot of bad data.

Yeah, you know what else is a "wait and see" situation? Just how much damage long covid is going to do. We still don't know the full extent of *that*, and I would argue that's a much bigger threat than the risks the vaccine poses.

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

I don't think much is gained by calling people fuckwits however, although I understand you're passionate, so feel free, it's just easier to engage when there's not abuse thrown around left right and center, it just escalates into an ego war.

Yeah, fair enough there, I probalby shouldn't just hurl abuse. I guess I've just got what you might call fuckwit fatigue, though. There are a hell of a lot of people on the internet who don't know what the fuck they're talking about. They're not suitably qualified, they don't know how to read research properly, and they've still somehow determined that they know enough to have an opinion contrary to the recommendations of the vast majority of medical professionals, virologists, epidemiologists, molecular biologists, etc etc. The only explanation I can come up with is that the vast majority of them are so ignorant that they don't even realise the extent of their own ignorance.

If someone's view is genuinely "I don't know", then probably they should accept the views of the majority of experts who *do* know, rather than be an admitedly ignorant contrarian for some suitably inane reason as "nobody has the full picture". If your view is "I don't know" and you're refusing to trust the experts who do know, then your behaviour is not consistent with "I don't know" and you're bullshitting about what your view really is.

[_indigo1]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

All I know is, if I develop anything, it wasn't from the vaccine.

But what if one of your forebears was vaccinated?
That means any illness you have could be vax injury!

[DrTiTus]

So while this is true in some sense, it is nonetheless ignoring the fact that we do have multiple control cases where the virus got loose in unvaccinated populations and resulted in death rates multiple times higher than what we ended up with in our own population. When you keep account of that fact, the rest of what you're saying doesn't hold a lot of water.

Until you look at Nigeria, Ghana, Ethiopia, Kenya, who I believe all had lower death rates/population than us, and poor vaccination rates. I know what you're saying - some unvaccinated areas fared worse - but some also fared better. Population data has some validity, but not necessarily to determine each individual in a population's best course of action (which is ultimately their choice, and affects no-one else).

Long covid is something like 30 - 40% of cases. So, you know, if you're going to talk about vaccine injuries, don't forget to keep that in mind.

I don't know the numbers, but I'll be interested to know how long COVID (however it gets defined in the future once we know more about it) compares between the vaxed and unvaxed populations. If one group happens to be worse affected, we might learn something new.

Like, if your goal is to protect vulnerable people, then it's a fucking great decision for those younger people to get vaccinated.

Bzzt. It doesn't prevent transmission, there is no "protecting society". Can't protect if you get and spread. And if that decision both doesn't have the intended effect and also increases risk of other things, it's not really for anyone else to say apart from that person, or their parents if they're too young. Not you, not the Government.

So, it's true that none of us should assume that we have the whole picture. However, it doesn't follow from that point that nobody has a better picture than anybody else. There are some of us who *definitely* have better pictures than others, and suggesting that we're all equally ignorant is just wrong.

Point taken - but similarly we know that zero people have knowledge of the long term effects of the vaccine, so we cannot trust anybody in this aspect. Therefore personal choice.

Yeah, you know what else is a "wait and see" situation? Just how much damage long covid is going to do. We still don't know the full extent of *that*, and I would argue that's a much bigger threat than the risks the vaccine poses.

Lucky everyone got vaccinated then to prevent COVID, right? Or it doesn't even prevent COVID OR long COVID? Jesus. You're gonna have to knock the price down a bit on these vaccines, they're much worse than the pictures in the ad. I'll take them off you for cost price minus 10%, they're shit m8.

<the bit about anyone knowing>

The whole point is these things are complete unknowns, and while we're learning more as time goes by, no one can claim to know how safe they are, and anyone who does is earning commission.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Until you look at Nigeria, Ghana, Ethiopia, Kenya, who I believe all had lower death rates/population than us, and poor vaccination rates. I know what you're saying - some unvaccinated areas fared worse - but some also fared better. Population data has some validity, but not necessarily to determine each individual in a population's best course of action (which is ultimately their choice, and affects no-one else).

None of those are what I would call good examples. I'd really struggle to believe you'd be getting anything like the same quality of data you'd be getting out of wealthy western nations. I'd be willing to bet life expectancy there is a lot shorter, birth rates would be higher, so the mass of the population demographics would sit at the young end. If you don't take that sort of stuff into consideration making your comparison, it's a pretty disingenuous comparison. The living environments of other examples we do have in western nations like America and the UK are sufficiently similar to our own in so many ways that they are incomparably better data points than Nigeria, Ghana, Ethiopia or Kenya. It honestly boggles my mind why you would even bring them up.

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

I don't know the numbers, but I'll be interested to know how long COVID (however it gets defined in the future once we know more about it) compares between the vaxed and unvaxed populations. If one group happens to be worse affected, we might learn something new.

Long covid will end up being a cluster of illnesses. There isn't one thing that it is, but rather a whole host of things that it can be, and each individual affected by it will have some combination of the possible things it can be.

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Bzzt. It doesn't prevent transmission, there is no "protecting society". Can't protect if you get and spread. And if that decision both doesn't have the intended effect and also increases risk of other things, it's not really for anyone else to say apart from that person, or their parents if they're too young. Not you, not the Government.

I mean, shouldn't you make that point in the context of the time the vaccines are being distributed though? Where's your nuance? The first people who got vaccines were the most vulnerable people, and after that, they were progressively rolled out to lower and lower risk groups. At the time that was happening, omicron hadn't happened, and delta was only really just getting started overseas. It takes time to vaccinate, and even though we started with the most vulnerable, it would be some time until they'd been fully immunised. At that time, to prevent and/or reduce spread, to protect those at risk people, when Delta was a looming threat and Omicron wasn't here, and the at risk groups weren't fully immunised, doing your bit by getting your vaccine *really did* make a difference. And if you don't understand the distinctions going on in there, if you think that just because omicron was going to spread later on, it's all the same, then you're more clueless than I thought.

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Similarly we know that zero people have knowledge of the long term effects of the vaccine, so we cannot trust anybody in this aspect. Therefore personal choice.

I mean, we kinda do though. Any harmful effects of the vaccine are pretty likely happen in fairly short order. Cases where someone is vaccinated and then comes to harm because of it years and years down the line are going to be pretty fucking rare. You're likely talking about such a vanishingly small number that it's not going to be anything that makes a meaningful difference to the big picture. You realise that, right? Honestly, what sort of long term worries do you even think there are?

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Lucky everyone got vaccinated then to prevent COVID, right? Or it doesn't even prevent COVID OR long COVID? Jesus. You're gonna have to knock the price down a bit on these vaccines, they're much worse than the pictures in the ad. I'll take them off you for cost price minus 10%, they're shit m8.

It's a probabilities thing. The population is in general better off with the vaccines than without. People who have been vaccinated might still get omicron, but they have lower viral loads, and don't get as sick, and the virus therefore doesn't do as much damage to them as it does (or can do) to unvaccinated people. Some of them still get long covid, but proportionally less than the people that were unvaccinated. Some of them still end up in the ICU, but again, proportionally a lot less than those who were unvaccinated.

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

The whole point is these things are complete unknowns, and while we're learning more as time goes by, no one can claim to know how safe they are, and anyone who does is earning commission.

You're just being a bit of a panic merchant here, really. "OOOHHH WE DON'T KNOW THIS, IT'S SO SCARY, WE'D BETTER NOT DO ANYTHING TO STAVE OFF THE VERY REAL DEATHS COVID WILL CAUSE BECAUSE OF SOMETHING THAT WE DON'T EVEN KNOW MIGHT POSSIBLY HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE"

Sorry, but it's just not even close to sensible, and what you're saying isn't even really an accurate representation of what we don't know.

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by Nothing

There are a hell of a lot of people on the internet who don't know what the fuck they're talking about. They're not suitably qualified, they don't know how to read research properly, and they've still somehow determined that they know enough to have an opinion contrary to the recommendations of the vast majority of medical professionals, virologists, epidemiologists, molecular biologists, etc etc. The only explanation I can come up with is that the vast majority of them are so ignorant that they don't even realise the extent of their own ignorance.

This has been the worst thing about the internet & social media.

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by Nothing

Sorry, but it's just not even close to sensible, and what you're saying isn't even really an accurate representation of what we don't know.

Do you know what we don't know? Do you even know what we do know? Or did you watch the same videos and read the same articles as everyone else, and find a big incoherent, logically inconsistent bunch of information that said "just get vaccinated"?

Because that's all I heard for two years. Noise and dictatorship. If you said "OK" that's fine man. I said "no thanks", and the only one waiting on results from the experiment is you. I'm satisfied it's over for me.

It's been so long we've both the same protection, but you've got modified spike flowing through your veins. How good are you at tennis? I'll give you a game.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Do you know what we don't know? Do you even know what we do know? Or did you watch the same videos and read the same articles as everyone else, and find a big incoherent, logically inconsistent bunch of information that said "just get vaccinated"?

Because that's all I heard for two years. Noise and dictatorship. If you said "OK" that's fine man. I said "no thanks", and the only one waiting on results from the experiment is you. I'm satisfied it's over for me.

It's been so long we've both the same protection, but you've got modified spike flowing through your veins. How good are you at tennis? I'll give you a game.

I'm not sure that what I'm saying is based on the sorts of videos and articles you're alluding to. I think my perspective has more to do with the time I spent studying things like research methods, statistics, critical thinking, and psychology.

A lot of people who are making the kind of bad arguments you're coming up with are making so many mistakes in the way they're thinking about it that it's hard to know where to even start with them. It probably goes back to some un-interrogated pre-argumentative assumptions that they have made about how the world works. The only thing a badly programmed machine is good at is making mistakes incredibly quickly.

Honestly, how is tennis even relevant? You'd probably win at tennis, but I'm sure it would have much more to do with how much time I spend sitting on my ass than anything vaccine related.

[Nich]

Originally Posted by Nich

ONS Deaths by Vaccination status:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...nstatusengland

No one is picking up what I'm laying down. So let me present it a bit more clearly:
From Table 1
Average of entire vaccination period Jan 2021 to May 2022

Age-standardised mortality rate / 100,000 person-years	                                             	                              
Cause of Death              Vaccination status                           	Average (Jan-2021 to May-2022)
All causes                  Ever vaccinated                              	986                           
                            First dose, at least 21 days ago             	3467                          
                            First dose, less than 21 days ago            	1978                          
                            Second dose, at least 6 months ago           	1562                          
                            Second dose, between 21 days and 6 months ago	1361                          
                            Second dose, less than 21 days ago           	1235                          
                            Third dose or booster, at least 21 days ago  	393                           
                            Third dose or booster, less than 21 days ago 	682                           
                            Unvaccinated                                 	1964                          
********************************************************
Deaths involving COVID-19   Ever vaccinated                              	98                            
                            First dose, at least 21 days ago             	294                           
                            First dose, less than 21 days ago            	74                            
                            Second dose, at least 6 months ago           	165                           
                            Second dose, between 21 days and 6 months ago	91                            
                            Second dose, less than 21 days ago           	3                             
                            Third dose or booster, at least 21 days ago  	25                            
                            Third dose or booster, less than 21 days ago 	22                            
                            Unvaccinated                                 	457                           
********************************************************
Non-COVID-19 deaths         Ever vaccinated                              	888                           
                            First dose, at least 21 days ago             	3173                          
                            First dose, less than 21 days ago            	1207                          
                            Second dose, at least 6 months ago           	1397                          
                            Second dose, between 21 days and 6 months ago	1266                          
                            Second dose, less than 21 days ago           	1176                          
                            Third dose or booster, at least 21 days ago  	368                           
                            Third dose or booster, less than 21 days ago 	655                           
                            Unvaccinated                                 	1507

and Per Month...

Age-standardised mortality rate / 100,000 person-years
Cause of Death           	Vaccination status                           	01/01/2021	01/02/2021	01/03/2021	01/04/2021	01/05/2021	01/06/2021	01/07/2021	01/08/2021	01/09/2021	01/10/2021	01/11/2021	01/12/2021	01/01/2022	01/02/2022	01/03/2022	01/04/2022	01/05/2022
All causes               	Ever vaccinated                              	1,252     	906       	902       	868       	902       	879       	945       	943       	990       	1,047     	1,074     	1,127     	1,085     	1,016     	993       	1,009     	823       
                         	First dose, at least 21 days ago             	1,719     	1,040     	1,002     	1,720     	5,166     	6,445     	6,145     	4,888     	4,741     	4,647     	3,903     	4,139     	3,843     	2,762     	2,403     	2,498     	1,873     
                         	First dose, less than 21 days ago            	1,333     	1,006     	2,065     	2,074     	1,748     	1,310     	892       	2,265     	761       	2,053     	3,490     	1,952     	3,532     	2,573     	0         	6,579     	0         
                         	Second dose, at least 6 months ago           	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	548       	740       	1,095     	1,766     	2,813     	4,785     	4,877     	3,209     	2,667     	2,356     	1,704     
                         	Second dose, between 21 days and 6 months ago	166       	455       	598       	748       	866       	809       	925       	949       	1,005     	1,199     	1,879     	2,380     	2,730     	2,026     	2,252     	2,334     	1,816     
                         	Second dose, less than 21 days ago           	266       	705       	529       	497       	803       	1,497     	1,797     	1,499     	814       	1,878     	2,155     	1,764     	2,300     	1,702     	0         	2,786     	0         
                         	Third dose or booster, at least 21 days ago  	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	508       	718       	853       	936       	925       	980       	966       	797       
                         	Third dose or booster, less than 21 days ago 	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	223       	406       	589       	1,104     	1,780     	1,965     	1,955     	1,523     	2,056     
                         	Unvaccinated                                 	2,508     	5,262     	3,308     	2,298     	1,719     	1,590     	1,611     	1,712     	1,665     	1,624     	1,708     	1,879     	1,812     	1,385     	1,232     	1,205     	873       


Deaths involving COVID-19	Ever vaccinated                              	672       	184       	54        	16        	6         	7         	24        	47        	66        	67        	70        	56        	110       	76        	74        	97        	36        
                         	First dose, at least 21 days ago             	741       	229       	66        	48        	74        	82        	186       	288       	372       	331       	298       	460       	712       	399       	284       	299       	122       
                         	First dose, less than 21 days ago            	740       	203       	186       	126       	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         
                         	Second dose, at least 6 months ago           	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	16        	70        	86        	141       	267       	431       	838       	361       	247       	243       	106       
                         	Second dose, between 21 days and 6 months ago	23        	25        	20        	8         	3         	6         	23        	45        	62        	63        	111       	170       	504       	151       	165       	168       	0         
                         	Second dose, less than 21 days ago           	22        	0         	12        	3         	8         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         
                         	Third dose or booster, at least 21 days ago  	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	19        	27        	26        	104       	64        	68        	91        	33        
                         	Third dose or booster, less than 21 days ago 	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	14        	19        	35        	153       	154       	0         	0         	0         
                         	Unvaccinated                                 	1,187     	2,174     	592       	146       	46        	56        	218       	404       	368       	322       	421       	521       	585       	259       	184       	205       	78        

                         	
Non-COVID-19 deaths      	Ever vaccinated                              	580       	722       	848       	853       	895       	872       	920       	895       	925       	980       	1,004     	1,071     	975       	940       	919       	912       	787       
                         	First dose, at least 21 days ago             	978       	811       	936       	1,673     	5,092     	6,363     	5,958     	4,600     	4,369     	4,316     	3,605     	3,678     	3,131     	2,363     	2,119     	2,199     	1,751     
                         	First dose, less than 21 days ago            	593       	803       	1,879     	1,949     	1,675     	1,275     	811       	1,673     	602       	2,053     	2,865     	1,662     	2,675     	0         	0         	0         	0         
                         	Second dose, at least 6 months ago           	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	532       	671       	1,009     	1,625     	2,547     	4,354     	4,039     	2,848     	2,420     	2,113     	1,597     
                         	Second dose, between 21 days and 6 months ago	143       	430       	577       	740       	864       	803       	903       	904       	943       	1,136     	1,769     	2,209     	2,227     	1,875     	2,088     	2,166     	1,746     
                         	Second dose, less than 21 days ago           	244       	645       	517       	494       	795       	1,475     	1,756     	1,418     	738       	1,834     	2,108     	1,702     	1,887     	1,588     	0         	2,786     	0         
                         	Third dose or booster, at least 21 days ago  	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	489       	691       	827       	832       	860       	912       	875       	764       
                         	Third dose or booster, less than 21 days ago 	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	0         	223       	392       	570       	1,069     	1,627     	1,812     	1,906     	1,484     	2,056     
                         	Unvaccinated                                 	1,320     	3,087     	2,716     	2,153     	1,673     	1,534     	1,392     	1,307     	1,297     	1,302     	1,287     	1,358     	1,227     	1,126     	1,048     	1,000     	795

Through 2021, the vaccine may have stopped a COVID death or 2 compared to unvaccinated (and "Ever Vaccinated"), 2022 is a completely different picture and for entire period vaccinated die from all other causes at higher rates per 100,000:
-Immediately after first vaccine one's mortality rate jumps to second highest in entire data set, then goes even higher after 3 weeks.
-If one survived the first dose, in all months of 2022 the 2nd dose kicks mortality rate up again
-and if one survived the 2nd dose, the 3rd dose kicks mortality rate up AGAIN
-and if one survive past 3 weeks after 3rd dose there lies the best mortality rate of any group in the data set, Keith Richards-tier drug tolerance.

[Nothing]

Nich, just out of curiosity, how long did you personally spend combing through that data set to reach these conclusions?

Also, do you have any particular qualifications or experience in a relevant field, like statistics, datascience, or even (ugh) econometrics?

[_indigo1]

Originally Posted by Nothing

Nich, just out of curiosity, how long did you personally spend combing through that data set to reach these conclusions?

Also, do you have any particular qualifications or experience in a relevant field, like statistics, datascience, or even (ugh) econometrics?

He can't have qualifications, or that would make him an 'expert' who is on the take or protecting his job, so we should definitely not listen to him.

[Nich]

Originally Posted by _indigo1

He can't have qualifications, or that would make him an 'expert' who is on the take or protecting his job, so we should definitely not listen to him.

That's a bingo!

This particular dataset, less than an hour.

If you care about qualifications, listen to Dr Aseem Malhotra:
https://twitter.com/DrAseemMalhotra/...86541302104065

Results: In the non-elderly population the “number needed to treat” to prevent a single death runs into the thousands. Re-analysis of randomised controlled trials using the messenger ribonucleic acid (mRNA) technology suggests a greater risk of serious adverse events from the vaccines than being hospitalised from COVID-19. Pharmacovigilance systems and real-world safety data, coupled with plausible mechanisms of harm, are deeply concerning, especially in relation to cardiovascular safety. Mirroring a potential signal from the Pfizer Phase 3 trial, a significant rise in cardiac arrest calls to ambulances in England was seen in 2021, with similar data emerging from Israel in the 16–39-year-old age group.

[Nich]

and if you are still confused why -- if it's really that bad -- aren't all the experts out there warning everyone:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IwEv_rluhw

"we own the science"

[Lightspeed]

No, pass. Totally skip all that noise. I have no way of assessing how appropriate the information some rando is presenting.

I'll stick to listening to people who have a reputation to lose. Rather than subscribers to gain.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Nich

That's a bingo!

This particular dataset, less than an hour.

If you care about qualifications, listen to Dr Aseem Malhotra:
https://twitter.com/DrAseemMalhotra/...86541302104065

This would be Dr Aseem Malhotra, author of the book "The 21-Day Immunity Plan" which claims to contain a special diet that can reduce the risk of COVID infection, yeah?

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Nich

and if you are still confused why -- if it's really that bad -- aren't all the experts out there warning everyone:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IwEv_rluhw

"we own the science"

God, I read a summary of that video and just facepalmed. YOU'RE NOT HELPING YOU FUCKS

[_indigo1]

I won't even click on any of those links because I don't want any algos even picking up on the fringe of that kind of shit for my profile.

Social media is not a platform for trustworthy data.

[Nich]

Won't click, won't look. To be expected. You deserve self-inflicted genocide.

[Lightspeed]

I click, I look. With discipline. I already have enough sources of dopamine, don't need an information junk food diet to get my kicks, to keep me out of depression.

[Cyberbob]

The issue is the masturbatory levels of self promotion on these videos you're posting.

Their point of view might be worth listening to, but I'm not going to trust it when they're using using the video as a platform to shoutout to their sponsors and promote their socials.

Just like those that they claim to be most against, their number one interest appears to not be in public education, but in profit and promotion.

[_indigo1]

It's the equivalent of listening to a busker rave on in a town square.
Source matters.

Do you realise you might as well be sharing TikTok links?

[The Edge]

Originally Posted by Nich

Won't click, won't look. To be expected. You deserve self-inflicted genocide.

Why? Because I won't watch the videos of some random, self-proclaimed "expert" you've found online as opposed to an actual doctor who studied this most of their life, so by your logic I deserve to die? Check.

[Ab]

In Nich's defense, the doc he linked to is a real actual doctor qualified in the field of cardiology. I think the problem is, though, that the doctor in question has also worked out that there's a lot of money to be made by publishing books about immunity-boosting miracle diets in the era of a pandemic.

[The Edge]

Thanks Simon, to clarify I was also referring to doctors who don't push their own self-interests, unlike the one he referred to (same comments apply to Doctors against Science or whatever the hell they're called).