Vote for change tomorrow

[Ab]

I like this post from Jim Hopkins:

Quite why anyone would want the job (of forming govt) is a moot point. But someone will get it. And we will choose who that will be. Not as they are striving to do in Syria and Egypt but quietly, peacefully, with no tear gas or bullets being fired at us. There'll be no soldiers standing between us and the polling booth. The only impediment we'll encounter is our own indifference.

Our past has bequeathed us a franchise. Our future will be determined by it. And we have two choices tomorrow. We can choose who we vote for and also how we vote. There's a range of views on this matter. Mr Goff favours MMP, Mr Key prefers SM. Others want Preferential Voting. Some hanker for FPP. Putting aside the merits of each, there is another, even more important issue. Our control of the process.

Unless we vote for change, the politicians will decide how they are elected. They may tinker with MMP or change it radically. The choice will be theirs, not ours. A vote for change will ensure a second referendum, with MMP tested against one of the alternatives. It means we will control the evolution of our peaceful democracy. Let the politicians address the economy. But the elections belong to us!

I'm voting for change in tomorrow's voting referendum and my personal preference is for STV.

I'm Ab from nzgames and I approve this message.

[Rince]

http://www.electionresults.govt.nz/referendum.html

53% voted to keep MMP, but 32% voted for FFP if we had to change....

[A Corpse]

First Fast the Post?

[Rince]

Errr.... FPP




(grumble, its early, grumble)

[Baxton]

fkn lazy assholes. off those that voted for change 55% wanted fpp. that means no-one fkn bothered to read up about any of the options (to my mind since they voted for the two options they know).

are all people usless cnts when it comes to this stuff or is NZ exceptionally high when it comes to appathy on how we decide who runs the country?

[chubby]

or maybe people felt that mmp offers us the best structure to achieve representaton?

[Baxton]

you really think that's why people voted the way they did?

[[WanG] Wandarah]

Originally Posted by Baxton

f
are all people usless cnts when it comes to this stuff or is NZ exceptionally high when it comes to appathy on how we decide who runs the country?

It's actually exceptionally low. In comparison.

[CCS]

People voted for MMP because they couldn't be fucked looking at the alternatives and because people keep saying "It's PROPORTIONAL!!" It's just easy to go with the status quo.

[Rince]

people voted for FPP because it is the one they are familiar with....

[Juju]

Did a referendum initiate the change from FPP to MMP, or was it the government at the time deciding on the people's behalf?

[Saladin]

Originally Posted by CCS

People voted for MMP because they couldn't be fucked looking at the alternatives and because people keep saying "It's PROPORTIONAL!!" It's just easy to go with the status quo.

If that were the case we never would have switched to MMP in the first place.

[chubby]

Originally Posted by Baxton

you really think that's why people voted the way they did?

mostly,yes.
there are flaws with its current iteration-interesting how those flaws have come to be used as tools by both sides(act/nzf) with both sides decrying such.
but if you believe that democracy=people getting a say(or something like that) how can you oppose a proportional/representational system?

[CCS]

Originally Posted by Saladin

If that were the case we never would have switched to MMP in the first place.

wat

[Saladin]

Originally Posted by CCS

wat

In the first referendum people picked MMP from the available options, and then picked it over FPP in the second referendum.. If people were just taking the easiest option/status quo we probably would never have changed from FPP.

[Baxton]

Originally Posted by chubby

mostly,yes.
there are flaws with its current iteration-interesting how those flaws have come to be used as tools by both sides(act/nzf) with both sides decrying such.
but if you believe that democracy=people getting a say(or something like that) how can you oppose a proportional/representational system?

I am not anti-mmp (yea I perfer the sound of stv) so I understand why you like it and voted for it.

the reason I am angry is the stats to me read like a bunch of people were too lazy to investigate the options.

If you beleive people were voting mmp because they loved proportional nature of it I envy you, but can't share your optimisim

[Baxton]

Originally Posted by Saladin

In the first referendum people picked MMP from the available options, and then picked it over FPP in the second referendum.. If people were just taking the easiest option/status quo we probably would never have changed from FPP.

didnt mmp have the biggest advertising campaign out of any of the options the first time around. I seem to remember MMP adds all over the TV at the time.

[CCS]

Originally Posted by Saladin

In the first referendum people picked MMP from the available options, and then picked it over FPP in the second referendum.. If people were just taking the easiest option/status quo we probably would never have changed from FPP.

The difference is that back then people actually wanted a change. You cannot compare then to now.

[Cyberbob]

The majority didn't want to change. Isn't that what it's all about?

The general public might not have read up on the options, but that's only because they don't mind the current method of voting.

[CCS]

I think what's important is why they didn't want to change. I suspect most people didn't want to think about it.

[Baxton]

it was really the FPP votes that split my tits.

keeping a reviewed version of mmp isn't making me cry (no idea how they would revamp it)

[cEvin]

IMO the whole referendum was very poorly communicated to the public.

If you did a random quiz of 1000 people on how STV works do you really think more than 10 could explain it accurately? Can most people even explain how MMP works? I doubt it

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by cEvin

IMO the whole referendum was very poorly communicated to the public.

Which now seems to be the normal (I'm thinking of the wording of the smacking bill in particular).

[chiquelet]

I'm one of the apparent few who votes in local body elections (stv) and I'm not going to pretend that stv isn't a giant pita. I mean, it'd be fine if you're dealing with a handful of candidates but when you've got dozens (for the DHBs for example) it's a nightmare.

[CCS]

You don't have to rank all of them. You can rank as many or as few as you like.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by chiquelet

I'm one of the apparent few who votes in local body elections (stv) and I'm not going to pretend that stv isn't a giant pita. I mean, it'd be fine if you're dealing with a handful of candidates but when you've got dozens (for the DHBs for example) it's a nightmare.

Telling the government who you want representing you and who you don't, on one of the few reasons when the government has to listen, is a nightmare?

If the laws required me to open a vein and write out my preferences in slowly-congealing blood in triplicate, I would do it and fucking LOVE IT.

[chiquelet]

Originally Posted by CCS

You don't have to rank all of them. You can rank as many or as few as you like.

I know, but just coming to the decision about who to rank involves a lot of effort (see below)!

Originally Posted by Ab

Telling the government who you want representing you and who you don't, on one of the few reasons when the government has to listen, is a nightmare?

When it comes to the DHB and their 5 dozen candidates it sure is. I admit that it wouldn't be that bad for parliamentary elections.

[CCS]

I didn't find it that much of a chore. About 50% of the local council election candidates could be weeded out easily just with a skimread of their blurb. Lot of nutters. The rest, well, know how the stv system works makes it worth my while. If you want to just tick a box without having to think too much, then maybe voting is not for you.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by chiquelet

I know, but just coming to the decision about who to rank involves a lot of effort

Sorry, I don't get what you're trying to say.

[chiquelet]

Originally Posted by CCS

If you want to just tick a box without having to think too much, then maybe voting is not for you.

That's a bit extreme. I put thought into who I vote for regardless of MMP or STV, but I find STV a pita. I can't imagine how people who aren't politically aware and who don't give a fuck about politics are supposed to find it.

[CCS]

Why is it a pain in the ass?

[Ab]

Yeah I'm just not following this at all. So you have to put some thought into who you're voting for OH NOES.

[cyc]

Originally Posted by Ab

Yeah I'm just not following this at all. So you have to put some thought into who you're voting for OH NOES.

Likewise.

[leadinjector]

Originally Posted by chiquelet

I can't imagine how people who aren't politically aware and who don't give a fuck about politics are supposed to find it.

so they can fuck off then if they arent interested? i dont get you.

[verve_rat]

So it seems that most people here think that the voters were too lazy to vote for not MMP. I don't think that is true. The referendum was rigged and I think a good number of voters realized that. If you wanted STV you would have to vote for change, but I think that most non FPP voters knew that FPP would be the front runner. So a vote to change to STV would end up with a second referendum of MMP vs FPP. And a voter that likes proportionality dosen't want to risk a second referendum where FPP is one of two choices, a bit of campaigning on the evils of a system that lets Winston in to parliament... we could end up with a two party system again.

But why do we have to wait two weeks for the actual results?

[TD]

chiquelet: Just rank one person. Problem solved.

[Deadmeat]

I voted for stv but what verve said was in my mind as I did so.

[Baxton]

in retrospec I should have been worried, but it never really occured to me how many people would not bother to look into the options and just vote FPP

[Delphinus]

Would have been nice to see a list of alternatives that don't have FPP as an option.

[chiquelet]

Originally Posted by leadinjector

i dont get you.

What can I say, I'm an enigma.