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Old 2nd July 2020, 20:24     #881
Ajax
Architeuthis
 
You asserted that understanding the origins of this pandemic has no value. I pointed out that it does in fact have value, which you accepted. Thereís not much else to say on the matter.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 20:48     #882
Lightspeed
 
I'm puzzled about the subsequent comments which appear to miss the point of my car analogy, which my comment about the value of pursing the origins of the pandemic was couched by.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 2nd July 2020 at 20:49.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 21:08     #883
Nich
 
Indoor vs outdoors spread of the virus may be explained by its evolutionary origins (ie a lab). I reckon it's a mystery worth solving regardless the political egg on faces that may result.

Knowing gain of function lab experimentation and sloppy decontamination practice resulted in a global pandemic would warrant more regulation and oversight on this branch of virology. If so, maybe we should do the investigstion and get those regulations in place before we are dealing with multiple pandemics simultaneously.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 21:22     #884
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajax
You asserted that understanding the origins of this pandemic has no value. I pointed out that it does in fact have value, which you accepted. Thereís not much else to say on the matter.
Interesting. I read it as an ironic comment about the antiscientific attitudes prevalent in politics in many countries (especially damn near all right-wing countries) at the moment.

... and let's face it, I don't usually defend a Lightspeed position
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Old 2nd July 2020, 21:56     #885
Ajax
Architeuthis
 
I donít see a lot of ambiguity, but no argument from me about prevalent antiscientific attitudes (or just scientific ignorance) in politics.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 14:33     #886
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
Indoor vs outdoors spread of the virus may be explained by its evolutionary origins (ie a lab). I reckon it's a mystery worth solving regardless the political egg on faces that may result.

Knowing gain of function lab experimentation and sloppy decontamination practice resulted in a global pandemic would warrant more regulation and oversight on this branch of virology. If so, maybe we should do the investigstion and get those regulations in place before we are dealing with multiple pandemics simultaneously.
Would we learn anything we don't already know? It seems clear, and coherent with what we see elsewhere, that the biggest challenge we're facing is political ideology and posturing trumping (...) academic consensus and appropriate expert advice. Not the absence of such.

Given we're not acting on what we know now, what good is more knowledge? All we need is our guy to say "nup" to the advice of much more appropriate experts and we're on board.

I trust China will be much more active in pursuing this research, they have a vested interest in finding out what happened. I suspect any meaningful research in the West will be perpetrated by the wicked deep state, occurring outside the awareness of elected leadership.

(For the Ajax's of the forum, I'm not advocating an end to the pursuit of knowledge, I'm suggesting our pursuit of knowledge is not what's in need of attention here.)
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Old 3rd July 2020, 14:43     #887
Nich
 
Fair point, I keep forgetting that tribal truth and individual truth beats evidence-based truth. And I agree, even if an investigation was successful, one tribe will claim it's true and the opposing tribe will take the contrary position. We'll just end up with more disagreement and more stalemate.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 16:57     #888
Ajax
Architeuthis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
I trust China will be much more active in pursuing this research, they have a vested interest in finding out what happened.
Numerous teams both inside and outside China, along with joint efforts, are actively researching the virus' origins (many are posting their findings in the public domain) and the results are potentially beneficial for the whole world.

Quote:

(For the Ajax's of the forum, I'm not advocating an end to the pursuit of knowledge, I'm suggesting our pursuit of knowledge is not what's in need of attention here.)
What do you propose should happen?
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Old 3rd July 2020, 17:06     #889
Trigga*happY
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Would we learn anything we don't already know? It seems clear, and coherent with what we see elsewhere, that the biggest challenge we're facing is political ideology and posturing trumping (...) academic consensus and appropriate expert advice. Not the absence of such.

Given we're not acting on what we know now, what good is more knowledge? All we need is our guy to say "nup" to the advice of much more appropriate experts and we're on board.

I trust China will be much more active in pursuing this research, they have a vested interest in finding out what happened. I suspect any meaningful research in the West will be perpetrated by the wicked deep state, occurring outside the awareness of elected leadership.

(For the Ajax's of the forum, I'm not advocating an end to the pursuit of knowledge, I'm suggesting our pursuit of knowledge is not what's in need of attention here.)
Remembering, at one point, stating with conviction that the world was a globe would have you laughed out of a room at best, or burnt at the stake for heresy at worst. A glut of evidence will predominantly trump 'tribal truths'. Of course the "true believers" may always push back, but eventually science takes precedence.

So while I understand the reservations about research, I think the issue is more with the mechanisms in which they are being released. A million half arsed 'scientific' investigations releasing propaganda, isn't science. It's religion. We have to find a way to sort the wheat from the chaff. Typically it's called Peer Review. Our science has to find a way back to that, rather than this push and publish bs we're seeing at the moment.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 18:00     #890
Lightspeed
 
You make a good point, alas IMO the last "glut of evidence" was WWII. It was firmly demonstrated to deluded leaders and their followers what actual competence is.

As has been pointed out, our formal systems of knowledge are still relatively healthy. If they're declining it's because of a neglect felt everywhere.

It's informal systems of knowledge that are failing, something I think we see even here. We get wrapped up churning over painful shit that generates no outcome whatever conclusion we draw. Figuring out not what's true or not, but how do we engage with each other given the divisions we have and the need to coherent action.

China has a way. I think it's awful. Upon hearing how the Chinese government was talking about consequences for the civil disruption in Hong Kong, I reflected on how that's a one-way street, given Hong Kong citizens are unable to impose consequences on the government, a right Westerners enjoy as given.

At this point though all our options are awful. They get worse by the day because we're unable to face these awful options.

We know what's outside. We need to look inside. That's what we're ignoring right now. That's what I propose.

For instance, there is no pressing need to know how effective masks are. It's the standard of care we have, so until robust evidence comes along that's what we do. But who hasn't been caught up in their own narrative about masks? That's bullshit that's costing lives. It's not USEFUL for us to be cooking up these stories for ourselves, we NEED to have trust in institutions, else we die preventable deaths.

But we don't and that's a problem that needs solving. It's much more pressing than the specifics of this pandemic which will no doubt be researched in any case, with little to nothing to be gained from our musings and finger pointing right now.

Anyway, just bouncing ideas.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 3rd July 2020 at 18:02.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 18:36     #891
Trigga*happY
 
The biggest hurdle right now is... Trump. His hyper active supporters are low income, low education sycophants. Dare I say redneck, in a hypersensitive world of racial discrimination?

It is Trump's push to move the narrative away from Covid that is driving the wedge between science and "the masses". With Trump downplaying the effectiveness of the mask, his die harders won't follow CDC directives. If one sect doesn't follow suit, the unsure are less likely to mask also, and if you have two sect's not wearing masks, you now have a problem.

Trump has done such a good job of conflating mask wearing, with first amendment rights, gun control, and elitism, it's going to be hard to break those stigmas.

Remove Trump... problem PARTIALLY solved.
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Old 4th July 2020, 19:48     #892
Nich
 
Victoria reports 108 new coronavirus cases, as 'hard lockdown' announced for nine public housing towers
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/victoria...housing-towers

Effective immediately, housing towers on lockdown with around 500 police assigned to enforcement.

ACAB - Aussie Cops Are Benevolent
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Old 4th July 2020, 20:16     #893
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
around 500 police assigned to enforcement.
More than that assigned: it's 500 per shift
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Old Yesterday, 19:22     #894
Lightspeed
 


It's basically gallows humour now, there's no shortage of it. It's so good/bad.
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Old Yesterday, 23:41     #895
crocos
 
SciShow describing some of the after-effects of even asymtomatic patients
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIJYfsOyO4M
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