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Old 26th August 2010, 12:36     #41
Lylmik
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
This thread needs more kiss and make-up.
Heh, I think that's actually quite clever.
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Old 26th August 2010, 13:04     #42
chiQ
Frag-muff
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lylmik
Heh, I think that's actually quite clever.
Me too.
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Old 26th August 2010, 13:21     #43
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP
The entire justice system really needs to be redone. It is fairly self defeating and illogical, people are just attached to the concept of revenge and punishment, even if it is not what is most effective at reducing crime, which is the apparent goal of the system.

I wouldn't be surprised if we're all judged by our childrens children for our ongoing unwillingness to readdress our judgmental, hypocritical and borderline pseudo masochistic attitude towards poverty, social issues and their symptoms.
Pretty much.

With what we know about the etiology of crime, particularly how disruptions in the maternal environment results in adult dysfunction, if we committed significant resources to provide safe, nurturing environments for our children for two or three generations, I think we would see a significant drop in crime in about 20 years.

But of course, that would mean less money in our pockets and people are extremely creative at finding reasons why they should keep their money.
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Old 26th August 2010, 14:28     #44
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juju
I have no problem with them being brought to justice for abusing their powers. But is it thread worthy?
Given some of the threads that start on here? Hell yes.
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Old 26th August 2010, 14:47     #45
ChaosWulf
Don't worry, be harpy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
Nor a smiley that says "I'm really just joking! Please don't hate me!"
Shame, bro. Shame.
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Old 26th August 2010, 16:51     #46
JP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
m0f0's don't want to hear problems, they want solutions.

Please elaborate, or STFU.
Retard's like this guy are a large part of the problem. Honestly man, do you think you are clever or something? Unless you have something to contribute perhaps you should stfu? Maybe you can get that IQ over 50 with a little listening. Your burns are oh so weak, and you use 0's instead of o's. Hahaha I just realised what you remind me of, 13 year olds on counterstrike.

There's no way we can approach a solution without society maturing and being able to accept that poverty is the fault of society, not the fault of the individuals within it. As long as we as a society continue to tolerate poverty crime is our punishment.

Poverty is very obviously the largest part of the solution, beyond race or anything else by a considerable margin. However as long as people continue to justify it, we will continue to suffer the run on effects of poverty.

It's quite fitting really.

If it is 'fair' to punish criminals, crime is a 'fair' punishment for a society.

edit- I know a lot of morons like Dr Titus will be like, hurrrr criminals are blah blah blah. No, that's a subjective judgment, a justification. Have you ever seen any facts that imply increasing penalties, reducing prison quality etc reduce crime? I'm gonna take a wild guess and say no.

Last edited by JP : 26th August 2010 at 16:52.
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Old 26th August 2010, 16:56     #47
Warrick
Awesome Ring Master
 
DrTiTus - Dux of Auckland Grammar, almost.

Calm down JP ;>
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Old 26th August 2010, 17:19     #48
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP
If it is 'fair' to punish criminals, crime is a 'fair' punishment for a society.
QFT.
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Old 26th August 2010, 17:43     #49
JP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrick
DrTiTus - Dux of Auckland Grammar, almost.

Calm down JP ;>
Yes I will, you're right. No one ever convinced anyone of anything by insulting them while they did it.

There is a big difference between book smarts, and being able to engage in critical thinking and understanding the world in an abstract, rather than black and white way though.
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Old 26th August 2010, 17:53     #50
Pimp-X
Drunken Annoying
Superhero Bastard
 
What's wrong with this thread? No awesome boobs pictures.
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Old 26th August 2010, 18:12     #51
cyc
Objection!
 
Well, post some!
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Old 26th August 2010, 18:33     #52
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyc
Well, post some!
This is a great truth.
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Old 26th August 2010, 18:44     #53
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
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Old 26th August 2010, 19:31     #54
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP
Retard's like this guy are a large part of the problem.
Sure, it's all my fault (huh?).

All I'm saying is you can rant and rave about what we as society may be doing wrong, but unless you can provide a realistic alternative, you're just talking about philosophic ideals.

For instance, you say "oh crime is due to poverty and poverty is society's fault". Well maybe it is... so what could we change to address that problem? It's not like we don't have a generous social welfare system.

It's all good to think you have identified the cause of the problem - but how do you think we can FIX it?

As an example, Lightspeed provided his suggestion "if we committed significant resources to provide safe, nurturing environments for our children for two or three generations..."

See what I mean now? You're sounding like Draco, and just attacking society as a whole, but aren't able to provide any working alternatives.

PS: Making retard into a plural doesn't need an apostrophe. Grammar represent! :P
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Old 26th August 2010, 19:35     #55
StN
I have detailed files
 
That's what Willis was talkin' 'bout.

Not you DrTitus...
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Old 26th August 2010, 19:47     #56
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
All I'm saying is you can rant and rave about what we as society may be doing wrong, but unless you can provide a realistic alternative, you're just talking about philosophic ideals.
I think where this would get stuck is on the definition of "realistic".

I guess the first step would be getting people to wake up to the fact that they can't have good education, good healthcare, good infrastructure, low crime, high wages and low taxes, all at once and right now.

But I'm not sure even that is realistic.

There ARE solutions out there. We know a shit load about the critical stages of development in children, what kind of disruption leads to what kind of dysfunction and what kind of dysfunction leads to what types of crime. Unfortunately the solutions have to take into account the step I mentioned above, making these solutions infeasible.

So the only acceptable solutions have to be cheap with fast results. Surprise, surprise, these solutions rarely pan out.
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Old 26th August 2010, 19:50     #57
Lightspeed
 
Also, I'd like to point out that society IS a whole.
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Old 26th August 2010, 20:23     #58
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP
Have you ever seen any facts that imply increasing penalties, reducing prison quality etc reduce crime? I'm gonna take a wild guess and say no.
The recidivist offending rate among those sentenced to death is very very low. But you got me - I didn't provide a source!
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Old 26th August 2010, 20:45     #59
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Also, I'd like to point out that society IS a whole.
Nah, it's fractured because everyone's running different versions of Android.
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Old 27th August 2010, 09:09     #60
fixed_truth
 
I'm surprised some chode hasn't piped up with 'poverty doesn't cause crime, what causes poverty also causes crime'.
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Old 27th August 2010, 09:40     #61
[WanG] Wandarah
 
theres some really good arguments in here, and obviously some of youse fullas have read some books and shit - aint no one taking that away from you, and i reckon that all that good stuff what came from school is probably worth something eh. always paid attention myself. anyway i've gone away and put the kids to bed and i reckon that i've had a bit of a think about some of the stuff what you said especially cyc and lightspeed and drdre and shit, and some of it really hit home and stuff but i must say that in the end what it comes down to is that i think what some of you guys with your books and everything have maybe missed and what i reckon is a really important point is that poverty doesn't cause crime, what causes poverty also causes crime.
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Old 27th August 2010, 09:44     #62
JP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
The recidivist offending rate among those sentenced to death is very very low. But you got me - I didn't provide a source!
Yeah ok i'm done arguing with you. Thank you for proving basically all my points. On one side we have a dialogue, on the other we have this. People like DrTit make up a considerable portion of the population and are extremely easily manipulated. What are you supposed to do about that? That is a problem beyond any single issue. We are hamstrung by smug ignorance.

I'm not saying there are easy solutions to our issues as a society, but we cannot even engage in mature genuine discussion. We try to solve our problems IN SPITE of ourselves, which is ridiculous.
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Old 27th August 2010, 09:44     #63
Pleb'a
 
Too many opinions ruin a thread, just saying.
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Old 27th August 2010, 09:49     #64
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by [WanG] Wandarah
theres some really good arguments in here, and obviously some of youse fullas have read some books and shit - aint no one taking that away from you, and i reckon that all that good stuff what came from school is probably worth something eh. always paid attention myself. anyway i've gone away and put the kids to bed and i reckon that i've had a bit of a think about some of the stuff what you said especially cyc and lightspeed and drdre and shit, and some of it really hit home and stuff but i must say that in the end what it comes down to is that i think what some of you guys with your books and everything have maybe missed and what i reckon is a really important point is that poverty doesn't cause crime, what causes poverty also causes crime.
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Old 27th August 2010, 10:20     #65
JP
 
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Old 27th August 2010, 10:55     #66
Cynos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
The recidivist offending rate among those sentenced to death is very very low. But you got me - I didn't provide a source!
Which is fine, if you're happy for innocent people to be executed by the State as well as guilty ones.

Seeing as how I'm not a sociopath, I'm not. What about you?
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Old 27th August 2010, 11:13     #67
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP
I'm not saying there are easy solutions to our issues as a society, but we cannot even engage in mature genuine discussion. We try to solve our problems IN SPITE of ourselves, which is ridiculous.
How very mature to call me Dr Tit, retard, and say it's 'people like me' that are the problem, as though the couple of remarks I've made regarding your posts reveal everything about me.

I can engage in mature discussion, but you seem to get emotional and worked up whenever I can't see the solution that you hint might exist but never state in definite terms. What are you proposing we can do as a society? You say crime is the result of poverty, but what do you suggest? A communist utopia? Got a razor, brother?

I wouldn't even say that our crime rate is result of poverty. I'd guess that it's more closely related to our drinking/substance abuse problem. My Mum has seen many young guys in jail who are otherwise "nice kids" that have ended up in jail for something they did one night when they were drunk or on the fries.

So did they get drunk/fried because they were poor? Because they couldn't afford all the luxuries in life? Not necessarily - rich people get off their face too - and the fries ain't cheap. It's a quick jump to say, "These people are committing crime out of necessity - they need to steal to eat!". What if they are just bored of life, and get fried/drunk and have fun at other's expense? No respect for others. Hmm. Maybe they never learnt respect. OH SNAP, THEY MUST BE POOR. Give them a handout! That'll solve all their problems?

So is our crime rate really the result of poverty (despite our welfare state and no one needing to live on less than a dollar a day in this country)? Or are these criminals actually just off their face when they're acting like fools and know that NZ punishments aren't very severe anyway, so they are willing to risk getting caught?

You act like criminals are victims, but they still made choices which led to them finding themselves getting caught, so how do you stop them making those choices if they've already demonstrated they are likely to? Pay them not to?
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Old 27th August 2010, 11:20     #68
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynos
Which is fine, if you're happy for innocent people to be executed by the State as well as guilty ones.

Seeing as how I'm not a sociopath, I'm not. What about you?
Not sure - is there a test I can do online? Maybe laughing at the cat being put in the bin would suggest I am?

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that the death penalty _should_ be introduced, I am just providing a hard link between increasing the penalties and reducing the rate of crime. So to say that it's not effective is untrue - just that there are ethical reasons for not jumping the gun. Perhaps going halfway and making punishment something to fear will have a deterrent effect? Do you follow my reasoning?

SOCIOPATHS ARE PEOPLE TOO. ITS JUST BECAUSE I'M NOT ON THE FORBES RICH LIST.
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Old 27th August 2010, 11:39     #69
JP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that the death penalty _should_ be introduced, I am just providing a hard link between increasing the penalties and reducing the rate of crime. So to say that it's not effective is untrue - just that there are ethical reasons for not jumping the gun. Perhaps going halfway and making punishment something to fear will have a deterrent effect? Do you follow my reasoning?
Actually you don't provide a hard link that this will reduce crime at all. What you provide is that if someone is dead, they are dead. Again, smug ignorance.

Can you provide any real world example of your theory working? Africa, the middle east, South America, the Taliban and tragically, many other places actually do execute people for a variety of crimes. These places have terrible crime rates, and often those who do receive the punishment are women or poor people who cannot bribe the police. I suppose this does seem to line up with your vision of justice?

Even if you are ok with the state being essentially a mass murderer, it is not an effective method of reducing crime.

I mean honestly man, people are oh so willing to be terrible to each other, as you have shown. Do you think any problem that could be solved by being terrible to each other wouldn't have been solved by now? People have treated criminals with extraordinary harshness since the start of time.

I'll call you drtit if I feel like it, that's a lot nicer than any name you deserve. I couldn't care less if you called me Queen Elizabeth if you'd actually provide some insight.

Last edited by JP : 27th August 2010 at 11:41.
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Old 27th August 2010, 11:49     #70
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Jail isn't necessarily about rehabilitation. It's about keeping dangerous assholes off the streets. You seem to think they deserve elocution lessons and a new wardrobe.

OK, so maybe just execute them when they get convicted of their SECOND jail term?

That way you'd have to be really unlucky to get convicted for TWO crimes you didn't do. Problem solved. Next!

Consider that some people are just assholes, and won't be rehabilitated in this life.

By the way, thanks for the "mature discussion".
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Last edited by DrTiTus : 27th August 2010 at 11:50.
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Old 27th August 2010, 12:06     #71
Cynos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
Perhaps going halfway and making punishment something to fear will have a deterrent effect? Do you follow my reasoning?
So, how well is America doing in the murder stakes. I presume that Texas has the lowest homicide rate due to its habit of executing convicted murderers. I mean, it's the ultimate deterrent, right? You do this, and the state kills you.

It's true that sentencing can have a deterrent effect. For some crimes, those committed carefully with much thought and rational decision making. Like fraud and other crimes typically committed by rich white guys. They really don't want to go to prison, so more imprisonment for fraud might be a deterrent. Might not - the fact that they're getting caught illustrates the limits of their rationality. Presumably, they thought they could get away with it.

Whereas it's obvious that harsher sentencing has no deterrent effect for people committing irrational crimes, like drunken murders.

So yeah, deterrents work for rational people, most violent crime is not committed rationally, ergo, deterrents don't.

I find it's typically used as a buzzword by the 'eye for an eye' crowd to justify their bloodlust.
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Last edited by Cynos : 27th August 2010 at 12:07.
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Old 27th August 2010, 12:08     #72
Cynos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
Consider that some people are just assholes
Yeah, like there's this one guy on the internet who keeps advocating we kill everyone. What's with that asshole?
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Old 27th August 2010, 12:22     #73
JP
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
Jail isn't necessarily about rehabilitation. It's about keeping dangerous assholes off the streets. You seem to think they deserve elocution lessons and a new wardrobe.

OK, so maybe just execute them when they get convicted of their SECOND jail term?

That way you'd have to be really unlucky to get convicted for TWO crimes you didn't do. Problem solved. Next!

Consider that some people are just assholes, and won't be rehabilitated in this life.

By the way, thanks for the "mature discussion".
The entire point is what you or I think they 'deserve' is irrelevant and subjective. Treating people who you think they 'deserve' to be treated will often result in terrible actions. People are petty and cruel as you've shown. Removing 'deserve' from the equation results in a more effective and more 'moral' system.

However even if we had super cops who never got it wrong, a justice system that treated everyone exactly the same and prisons made from gold, this would never ever resolve the problem. Prison is a self replicating problem, imprisoning people wrecks families, which results in more crime. The war on drugs in the US is a perfect example of how one, the justice system is extraordinarily arbitrary, and two how increasing penalties dramatically can lead to a social breakdown with massive increases in crime.

Come on man, no one here has an agenda, what you think I love criminals or something? I'm a white middle class male living on the North Shore, the only difference is that when I see some news story about some terrible crime, I would actually like to start improving the situation. I feel the exact same desire for revenge, that is entirely natural but so is all 'evil'.
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Old 27th August 2010, 12:23     #74
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynos
So yeah, deterrents work for rational people, most violent crime is not committed rationally, ergo, deterrents don't.
Indeed.

People develop their core way of functioning in the world by the time they're age four. YOU developed your core way of functioning in the world by the time you were age four. This is solid, well understood, widely accepted scientific theory.

If you grew up in a highly disruptive environment, you will find a way to cope. Your brain will become physically wired to deal with this environment and your psychology will match this.

So what do you think will be more effective? Convincing people whose minds are wired to deal with a disruptive, dangerous world to act like compassionate, caring citizens? Or trying to find a way to prevent children from growing up in environments that are hostile and threatening?

Neither solution is easy, but I think we've already tried one solution for the entirety of human history and it hasn't worked yet.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 27th August 2010 at 12:24.
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Old 27th August 2010, 12:46     #75
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
OK, I'm glad we have determined that there are many causes of crime, not just poverty, and that we can't possibly fix the system by simply "eliminating poverty" as rich white guys commit crime too. That was really my point. Whatever simplistic view you have, it's wrong.

I'm happy to accept that while we have law, we will have crime. I don't think it's possible to eliminate crime, without eliminating criminals. But you propose a solution and people get all "whoa man, don't fix the problem, that'd infringe on people's rights to be criminals!" on your ass.
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Old 27th August 2010, 12:51     #76
Lightspeed
 
Yeah, but that's just a justification for people to keep their money and not have to commit anything of themselves to solving the issues that they demand be solved in their society.

There's no disputing that the majority of trauma and crime is clustered around the economically disadvantaged.
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Old 27th August 2010, 13:05     #77
xor
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP
Can you provide any real world example of your theory working? Africa, the middle east, South America, the Taliban and tragically, many other places actually do execute people for a variety of crimes. These places have terrible crime rates, and often those who do receive the punishment are women or poor people who cannot bribe the police. I suppose this does seem to line up with your vision of justice?
U.A.E. is pretty sweet for this imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP
Even if you are ok with the state being essentially a mass murderer, it is not an effective method of reducing crime.
I believe in the death penalty. I don't think some should get the luxury of being alive. E.g. Graham Burton
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Old 27th August 2010, 13:23     #78
Pimp-X
Drunken Annoying
Superhero Bastard
 
Still needs more boobs.
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Old 27th August 2010, 13:25     #79
Saladin
Nothing to See Here!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xor
U.A.E. is pretty sweet for this imo.
So in order to reduce crime, we just need to make the minority native population tremendously wealthy? Hone Harawira's going to love that one
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Old 27th August 2010, 13:30     #80
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pimp-X
Still needs more boobs.
That's your fault. Whinger
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