NZF+ACT+National thus far...

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Ab

Voters didn’t elect a National govt, they sacked a Labour one.

We voted to cut off our nose to spite our face.

[Cyberbob]

Can he at least try to be less hypocritical.

PM Christopher Luxon using taxpayer funds to learn te reo

[Ab]

"In the real world outside of Wellington and outside the bubble of MPs, people who want to learn te reo or want to learn any other education actually pay for it themselves," Luxon said, earlier.

This morning, in a statement, a spokesperson confirmed the taxpayer-funded budget of the Leader of the Opposition's office paid for Luxon's te reo lessons.

curb_your_enthusiasm.mp3

[Lightspeed]

Government needs to 'get to the bottom' of what is happening within Kāinga Ora, minister says

Finally, we're going to sort out housing for the needy.

Concerning advice had prompted the government to "get to the bottom" of what is happening with Kāinga Ora's debt, the housing minister says.

Oh, never mind.

[Lightspeed]

It's crazy how the last government left the books in such an awful state that we can afford billions in tax cuts.

The last government did such a terrible job maintaining infrastructure, we can say "no thank you" to extra billions invested in our future.

Amazing times we live in, we've transcended logic. Which means we're finally exempt consequences. What a relief!

[StN]

I don’t give a royal flying fuck that the official languages of NZ don’t include English.

Waiting for someone to sign to Luxon how much taxpayers will pay for him to learn sign language…

[Lightspeed]

Government to repeal Taxation Principles Reporting Act under urgency

I wonder how successful the government will be at hiding the findings that were just about to be released.

My guess is there's nothing too shocking, but the government doesn't what the public getting comfortable with the idea of transparency.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Ab

Oh god, all of a sudden everyone's realising that Bill English's social investment theory was actually fucking great.

Well, we're going to see how great it really is:

The government hopes private investors will fund social services – the evidence isn’t so optimistic

[Lightspeed]

Shane Jones versus The Frog

“Stewardship land is not DOC land,” said Jones, “and if there is a mineral, if there is a mining opportunity and it’s impeded by a blind frog, goodbye, Freddie.”

What's the nation's biodiversity when compared to some already rich people getting a bit richer.

[Lightspeed]

Government confirms leaked document was a ministry Treaty Principles bill memo

Article 3: "We are all equally beholden to money. The rich deserve what they have, so do the poor."

[DrTiTus]

That's very much not what it says - somehow you've turned a statement about equality under the law into something based on your personal crusade against extreme inequality.

I don't see what is problematic about suggesting we are all equal under the law. This whole "Maori never ceded sovereignty, we want our own rights/privileges/government" bs is just "sovereign citizen" madness using "colonialism kicked my dog/everyone else is racist" as a way to deflect from criticism. It's the same shit, except this particular shit has a moko drawn on it.

[fixed_truth]

We are equal under the law. All of us fucked over by colonization should get redressment.

How do you explain Maori doing so poorly in all social & economic measures compared to non-Maori?

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

We don't need to explain it. We don't need a model.

🤷

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

We are equal under the law. All of us fucked over by colonization should get redressment.

How do you explain Maori doing so poorly in all social & economic measures compared to non-Maori?

With a normal distribution? Because the ones we focus on are the most hard done by (the stink end of the curve), and we pretend they "represent" Maori? People now think that Maori need their hands held every step of the way (by white people of course, who else can possibly save them from themselves?).

If you're trying to tell me that all Maori are poor, uneducated and unable to succeed, then I can tell you that's absolutely not true. So if some can, and others can't, it's differences /within the population/ not /as a result of belonging to the population/.

I have no explanation for why Maori and Pacific Island people tend to reverse over their children on driveways more than they should (they are over represented), but they do. I don't think it's "because colonisation" or "because the Treaty was misinterpreted" though.

We do Maori a disservice by constantly "othering" them and acting like they're special needs. We're all just people. The difference between Maori and non-Maori is not the same as the difference between a cat and a dog. Maori are just normal people, although poverty is a cycle that families get trapped in - but poverty affects non-Maori as well as Maori. There are potentially MORE non-Maori poor than there are Maori poor (in absolute numbers), but we laser focus on Maori (and ignore the Pacific Island poor, they don't get any special treatment, even though they got dawn raided and exploited - no treaty though, too bad).

There are a lot of qualities/attributes/cultural things that get passed on by parents. Rich kids are inherently advantaged by their parents - and poor kids are inherently disadvantaged. Educated parents likely push education on their kids. Gang parents likely push gang shit on their kids. Rich parents can help their children out financially - poor parents need their kids to drop out of school and work to support them. These things aren't necessarily due to race/genetics, but just circumstance.

The poorest kid I remember from primary was a white girl - the kid who brought a $50 note for lunch in the 80s was a Maori whose Mum drove a taxi. The rich guy I caught the bus to high school with was Samoan.

I'm not saying there are not poor Maori communities - but I don't think setting up a completely separate class of citizen [or whatever the goals are, I have no idea] for Maori, enshrined in law, is going to resolve their circumstances.

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

If you're trying to tell me that all Maori are poor, uneducated and unable to succeed, then I can tell you that's absolutely not true. So if some can, and others can't, it's differences /within the population/ not /as a result of belonging to the population/.

I'm saying that all Maori face disadvantages in society (to different degrees) based on their ethnicity; due to the institutional & societal racism that comes from colonization.

For example, even when controlled for socioeconomic status, poverty, age, sex, comorbidities and location. Maori are on average 35% more likely to die after waiting list surgeries. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-k...n-maori-report

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

but poverty affects non-Maori as well as Maori. There are potentially MORE non-Maori poor than there are Maori poor (in absolute numbers), but we laser focus on Maori (and ignore the Pacific Island poor, they don't get any special treatment, even though they got dawn raided and exploited - no treaty though, too bad).

Maori disadvantages come from Te Tiriti not being honoured and the colonisation that followed. So their interventions are based on redressing historical injustices not reducing poverty in general. But hey, I'm all for more socialism to reduce general poverty. How about you?

[DrTiTus]

I disagree with you (and I don't want more socialism), but for the sake of the argument, let's say that everything you say is true. The original point discussed is that everyone is equal under the law, and somehow that was objectionable (or perceived as an attack on the poor?), because, I suppose, "the treaty".

Let's say that - quite rightly - society judges people. By social class, by the way they talk, by nationality, by tattoos, by queer hairstyle and nose rings, etc.

And let's say that as a result Maori are a lower class of people that no one wants to employ (remember - you're saying it, not me).

What is the solution you are proposing? Or if not _your_ solution, what is the solution being proposed (by presumably Maori) that I am supposed to support? Are we giving them money? Are we setting up a separate government? Do they just want an apology? Saying "There is systemic racism" is one thing, but apart from sending a mass email to every government department saying "Please don't be racist towards Maori", what is the actual solution?

Does everyone have to speak Te Reo? Do we have to have Whites Only and Maori Only drinking fountains to make sure they get a turn?

I honestly don't know how some m0f0 living in a little town with no industry who is poor will be lifted out of poverty by the stroke of a pen, or will live longer after an operation if the law is changed somehow. I just don't understand what actions need to be taken, or if there's no action needed, why are we supposed to care? And how do we identify who gets "redressment"? I'm listed as a Maori, so will I get something that others don't?

It's all well and good to want to lift people up and support them, but in practical terms - the only things I understand with my raging Aspergers - I just don't see what the fuck they want.

[fixed_truth]

It complex & multifaceted. But basically it's decolonisation and looking at outcomes as a measure of success. The Maori Health Authority is an example. By changing societal structures i.e. interconnected environmental systems. When I get a chance I'll explain it with a bit more detail.

[Lightspeed]

The injustices of our past isn't a problem that we can just come up with a solution to that we can just apply.

Any solutions need to be made in the context of those actively trying to indulge in and exploit further injustice.

Any solutions need to be made in the context of fewer resources available to the community every day, as commercial interests capture the value we produce.

Which is a very difficult environment to come up with solutions in, which is further used to justify not bothering, to just determine on this day everyone is equal, everyone has exactly what they deserve. Good luck to everyone, you're now on your own!

Frankly it's amazing we've come as far as we have.

[DrTiTus]

Cool sign me up, I'm Maori, I'll take whatever wealth you guys are redistributing to me. If you want to put me at the front of the queue for everything, sweet as, I'm VIP. If you think my needs are more important than yours, so be it.

Clearly they are, because injustice. Past wrongs to people who were not me, mean I obviously deserve special treatment.

I can't wait to hear what you guys are offering, and if it's a handout with no strings attached, I'd be a mug to say no.

[Lightspeed]

Ooof, it must be so hard being so naive. Your gloating at having parties during the pandemic makes so much sense, when your world is obviously reduced to some very simplistic ideas.

It must be quite something living in a world where the present isn't the result of the past. I'll be honest and confess I can't quite fathom it.

I mean, I kind of get there if I think only the individual self exists, all I am and all that is, is the individual self. But I just experience so much more than that. There's so much that I can see originates outside of myself.

[DrTiTus]

I'm not sure I gloated about having parties during lockdown - I went to see my family while Auckland was still locked down, but if you call me going to see my Mum and give her a hug "a party" then whatever bro. If there was any gloating it would be about the fact I had had enough and stopped obeying stupid rules. It was a bullshit pandemic anyway. That's why I'm still alive. I took care of myself. Even so...

Of course the present is a result of the past - that's just the nature of time. But I also understand that no one else will make my life better for me - it's something I have to do for myself. Others may make life more difficult that are out of your control, but you always just have to do what you can for yourself. They do what they do, you do what you do. Everyone looks after themselves. Everyone gets a lucky dip at birth - no one chooses to be born into a rich/poor family, black/white, able/disabled, etc. That's just luck of the draw. It is what it is.

I certainly don't sit here and think of every terrible thing that happened in the past and use it as a reason or excuse for why my situation might not be optimal. If anything, I look at my past mistakes and aim to learn from them. If I just sat here blaming my genetics, my gender, historic wrongs against my family from generations ago, unwanted encounters with people, people calling me names, or even the misfortune of my own birth and convince myself that as a result I'm doomed or useless, I'd just be a miserable cunt with a chip on my shoulder blaming the world. That's not my style. I might be a cunt of sorts online, but I do it for entertainment to wind people up. I'll own it. But I don't care.

You can call it "naive" if you want, but that's just my worldview - I don't blame others, I can only blame myself. Sure, I may complain about the world and problems I see, but ultimately I just work with what I've got. I make observations, but I don't develop a complex about them as a result. There are plenty of things I don't like about the world, but that's no reason to give up and constantly moan. I do what I can to share my opinions, but that's about where it ends. I'll discuss things, but I don't care so much that I'll glue my hand to a road in protest.

You seem to take on problems far bigger than you and I, make them somehow your own responsibility, and it makes you see the world through a lens of "everything is unfair". I might be "naive", but as a result I don't have to worry about shit I can't change. For instance Palestine vs Israel. I'm sure it's terrible, but I don't give a fuck. Nothing I do or say will change the entrenched power structure. To make it my own personal crusade is pointless. I'm not a trained soldier, I don't have Netanyahu's phone number, and I'm way down the list of "people with clout". Not my problem. I sleep easy. Same with poor people/rich people. I don't know why you make it your issue that inequality exists. Inequality will always exist. Inequality gets worse when the financial system breaks down. Society is in decline. So what? Blaming this group or that group doesn't solve the problem. The only thing we can do is look after ourselves. Be prepared. Think ahead. Make better choices.

I made that last comment to see how you would react to giving ME things, simply as a result of me being Maori. If you think "why should he be treated special" or "I don't want to help him" then bingo, that's how I feel. If you think "he's not even a Maori, he's white!" then welcome to the can of worms. How Maori do you have to be to be oppressed? We are told blood quantum isn't a thing, so we can't rely on that. If you "whakapapa Maori" you deserve some sort of extra assistance? No thanks. Reducing complex social problems to "because they identify as Maori" is also a very simplistic conclusion to draw, and I don't agree with that being the root cause of people's fucked up lifestyles. That's why I don't agree with treating Maori as a Borg group. Every Maori is different. To say "because Maori" is to reduce people to simply their race, which I consider distasteful.

I don't think I deserve more than you do - or anyone else in the country - I don't even have an irrational hate for immigrants (who are obviously neither Kiwis or Maori when they step off the plane) - if they come and follow the rules, they get what they're entitled to according to the rules. If that situation didn't gel with me, I'd prefer to change the rules, not hate on the immigrants personally. I'm more practical than emotional. It's my personality type. I just think we should be a unified country with equal citizenship, and stop all this "but I'm Maori, therefore I want to do things my own way because white people hate me". No, you want money, just say it.

Just hating the rich, or blaming white people, or saying everything is "the patriarchy" etc is just divisive and not really a solution at all. If observing that being a moaner and blaming others while not actually sorting your own shit out is "naive" then I'm naive as fuck.

[_indigo1]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

It must be quite something living in a world where the present isn't the result of the past. I'll be honest and confess I can't quite fathom it..

Rest easy bro. The present is just a result of the branch you are in.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by _indigo1

Rest easy bro. The present is just a result of the branch you are in.

Nah, we're the average of all the branches.

[_indigo1]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Nah, we're the average of all the branches.

The average of all the branches is null

[Lightspeed]

A null value cannot have products.

[_indigo1]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

diatribe

I don't buy into a lot of things you say Titus; but there is one thing I read in what you have written that I think is spot on.

Honestly I went through a lot of my life before I came to this realisation - and it took me getting debilitatingly sick to the point my life has basically been "stolen" from me, every day is suffering, and it's like being in a waking coma, watching the world pass me by and wondering if I will ever catch up again.

It has given me perspective; and only now do I realise - you can spend your entire life with this implicit construct of fair in your head - and it gives you certain expectations - but when the rubber hits the road, all it ever really does is cause you problems.

In my case; thinking about how "wrong" it is that I am in this position, the things and people who contributed to it, the fact that somehow through some batshit totally unjustified concept of "karma" I am somehow "due" for things to get better.

It's all a bullshit waste of thought and energy built on a fallacy of reason:

At the end of the day, the honest to god bottom line of it all is, the universe owes you a grand total of absolutely fucking nothing.

The sooner you come to terms with that, the better off you are.

It's not until I got to that understanding that I realised that before it I had some weird subconscious concept of "fair" in my head affecting my thinking.
Fair doesn't exist.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by _indigo1

the universe owes you a grand total of absolutely fucking nothing.

This is why I struggle to be unhappy. I'm owed nothing but I have so much. Fuckin' Augustus wishes he had the view of spacetime I've got, the wealth I enjoy.

Of course, I'm greedy and want more, hence why I always bang on about inequality. Escalating inequality. Everyone is missing out on having more while our solution is to chase more money instead of rolling our sleeves up and doing the dirty work of throttling a few rich buggers. With taxes and by closing tax havens of course.

[Lightspeed]

With all the funding cuts going on, I wonder how the government is going to tackle crime as promised?

The public service agencies asked to cut spending

[fixed_truth]

I don't think that it's an either-or situation. Someone can totally accept that life is inherently unfair and also believe that we should aim to reduce unfairness.

[_indigo1]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

I don't think that it's an either-or situation. Someone can totally accept that life is inherently unfair and also believe that we should aim to reduce unfairness.

Who intimated that it was an either-or.

[fixed_truth]

The guy arguing against addressing Maori inequality and saying the problem is too big for us to take on but apparently Maori should just sort out their own shit.

[DrTiTus]

Both our co-deputy prime ministers are Maori. Our government is about 24% Maori - loads of government employees are Maori. Many Maori also work in the private sector. Many move to Australia and succeed. How are all these Maori managing to succeed and hold down well paying jobs if it's a fact that all Maori are oppressed and retarded?

And if it's not a fact, then stop saying that Maori need to be helped because they're Maori. Just say "poor people" need to be helped because they're poor. That's more accurate, and isn't a race-based policy.

I've got nothing against helping people - I just have a problem with saying Maori are handicapped by nature of their ethnicity. I think it's racist and untrue.

I have a similar problem with America always talking about "the black population" and not attempting to move on from the concept of "blacks and whites". No race is a homogeneous group - people are all individuals with autonomy and a variety of circumstances. The only people who care what race someone is are racists.

[fixed_truth]

No social service provision system can perfectly identify individual needs without being highly complex. Yes, considering ethnicity is blunt, but is more practical and does capture factors that ethnicity blind algorithms miss.

As I said earlier in the thread, even when other variables are accounted for, Maori still don't get their needs met. E.g. Maori with a high socioeconomic status still feel that our health/educational/justice/political systems don't meet their cultural needs as Maori. This is because some of those needs aren't socioeconomic based, they're cultural needs related to failings in our social structures and systemic racism.This is why ethnicity conscious interventions give better overall outcomes for Maori than the current system that for centuries has delivered Maori poor outcomes.

You're right that some people with Maori ancestry who are alienated from their traditional culture and/or are light skinned don't feel like they have cultural/social justice related needs. No system is perfect.

[Lightspeed]

We face a conundrum as a community. How do we allow those with wealth to continue to leverage that wealth to further accumulate wealth? As is right and just. While also avoiding the worst consequences of accumulated community deprivation.

This is the "how do we have our cake and eat it too" situation we're juggling.

I think we're going to keep up with the "what deprivation" and "they only have themselves to blame". Because at the end of the day the worst thing that could happen is tomorrow the richest don't get richer.

That's the disaster every day we work to avoid. There is no higher priority.

[Ab]

When back home over the holidays the gap between rich and not-rich seemed bigger than I remember. Not a scientific survey, but going from (e.g.) shopping at the Matakana Market in the Rodney Ward north of Auckland, to shopping at the Pak'n'Save on the corner of Fenton and Amohau Streets in Rotorua... was really jarring. Rotorua in particular was a real mess in places, and that's my home turf.

Everything seemed to be about property, everywhere. Who has it, who's selling it, who's making money, who can't have it. Jesus, that "no CGT" policy that the boomers have imposed on the country is going to go down in history with Muldoon's "no state superannuation plan" decision.

[Lightspeed]

The government literally campaigned on dignity for landlords.

This is what that dignity costs:

Front-line services could face cutbacks: Willis

[xor]

Article fails to mention the % increase in govt workers under the previous govt. Who needs analysis, hey

[Lightspeed]

"Analysis", lolz.

Good thing all our problems with crime and other social disorder were sorted out.

Now it's time for DIGNITY FOR LANDLORDS!

[xor]

lol

[Ab]

I hate to sound like a godless communist, but I would wager that the wage bill of all those unnecessary public servants is a rounding error next to the revenue the state missed out on by not taxing capital gains on all those property sales.