Is Hell Dead?

Lightspeed · 16th April 2011, 12:03

http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...5080-5,00.html

Great article in Time magazine about the growth of non-conservative Christianity in the US.

In the Politics forum, to appease the ragers a little.

crocos · 16th April 2011, 16:53

*sigh* I suppose it is Church politics, even if there's no element of the secular politics that this subforum was set up for. But still:

CCS · 16th April 2011, 17:09

Don't encourage him, crocos.

crocos · 16th April 2011, 17:36

Good point.

Lightspeed · 17th April 2011, 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocos

*sigh* I suppose it is Church politics, even if there's no element of the secular politics that this subforum was set up for. But still:

Fair point, but there are so many sensitive souls on this forum who clearly become greatly pained at being exposed to the ideas of spirituality and religion that I thought it would be best if I posted in the Politics forums where only members who are made of harder stuff dare tread.

Ab · 16th May 2011, 16:14

Just for you, LS:

Quote:

Stephen Hawking: "I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...e-is-no-heaven

ATTEND!

aR Que · 16th May 2011, 16:18

saw the headline image and couldn't force myself to go further.

fixed_truth · 16th May 2011, 16:48

Made me think of the old analogy of listening to music on a radio, smashing the radio’s receiver, and thereby concluding that the radio was producing the music.

Lightspeed · 16th May 2011, 17:23

Well, I can think of numerous spiritual perspectives that would think differently, but obviously it is a perspective that gives Hawking comfort and allows him to pursue self-actualisation (as apparent in his work and passion.)

Redneck · 16th May 2011, 19:03

Did you actually read the article?

Lightspeed · 16th May 2011, 19:10

Yes. Twice now, trying to find what I assume you think I'm missing.

Redneck · 16th May 2011, 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

obviously gives comfort

Nothing he says suggests this.

Lightspeed · 16th May 2011, 19:54

Do you regard yourself as a computer? Is that the sum of your existence? Do you think most people consider themselves that way? I certainly don't.

Believing that one's self is the same as a computer is a spiritual perspective. Now, I guess I could assume Hawking has taken this perspective because his great mind came to a purely rational decision. But considering his condition and abilities, I can only imagine it gives him some comfort to think of his essence as some grand computer.

Lightspeed · 16th May 2011, 19:56

I assume Hawking equates the brain as the self (again, makes sense given his condition), because people generally consider the self that exists in the afterlife, not various organs.

Redneck · 16th May 2011, 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

I can only imagine

Ah ok.

Lightspeed · 16th May 2011, 20:30

Do you have an alternative imagining? Or do you only stick to the facts when it comes to considering what Mr Hawking has to say?

Vrtigo · 16th May 2011, 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Do you regard yourself as a computer? Is that the sum of your existence? Do you think most people consider themselves that way?

LIGHTSPEED POSTING DETECTED
INITIATING POPCORN MODE... DONE
WAITING FOR THE LULZ

CCS · 16th May 2011, 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vrtigo

LOLSPEED POSTING DETECTED
INITIATING DRINK MODE... DRANKED
WAITING FOR THE FACEPALM

StN · 16th May 2011, 21:17

Hell not dead, Hell got complained on.

pervy · 16th May 2011, 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab

Just for you, LS:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...e-is-no-heaven

ATTEND!

What's the point? Do you want to see his ramblings on this topic? Hint: It will be the same inane babble as the last 1000 times.

Remember that if religious people could be reasoned with, there would be no religious people.

xor · 16th May 2011, 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by pervy

Remember that if religious people could be reasoned with, there would be no religious people.

Weak troll brah, just shows you to be an ignorant cock smoker. DIAF

^BITES^ · 17th May 2011, 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by xor

Weak troll brah, just shows you to be an ignorant cock smoker. DIAF

DIH

(Die In Hellfire)!!

pervy · 17th May 2011, 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by xor

Weak troll brah, just shows you to be an ignorant cock smoker. DIAF

Completely devoid of reason with the addition of name calling.... Good to see you're upholding traditional Christian values!

Lightspeed · 17th May 2011, 13:02

Your post however was most mature and thought compelling.

cyc · 17th May 2011, 13:42

Just like all your valuable posts eh, Lightshit?

[WanG] Wandarah · 17th May 2011, 14:08

I wish I could respect peoples religious beliefs instead of finding them totally hilarious. Sometimes, they try to engage you in conversation about them - and I just can't keep a straight face. So cute. So bizarre!

Totally respect peoples right to have 'em, mind. Just don't know if calling someone ignorant, because they find your beliefs a bit silly is...kosher.

^BITES^ · 17th May 2011, 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by [WanG] Wandarah

I wish I could respect peoples religious beliefs instead of finding them totally hilarious. Sometimes, they try to engage you in conversation about them - and I just can't keep a straight face. So cute. So bizarre!

Totally respect peoples right to have 'em, mind. Just don't know if calling someone ignorant, because they find your beliefs a bit silly is...kosher.

I'm the same ...

However I normally ask them to explain it without using the terms "believe/belief" or "the bible says".

^BITES^ · 17th May 2011, 14:28

On this could a mod make a "your beliefs" poll? ... I'm more curious than anything and should be interesting to see.

Basically use the options from the census as the basis....?

A Corpse · 17th May 2011, 14:33

Too many Jedis.

Lightspeed · 17th May 2011, 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by [WanG] Wandarah

I wish I could respect peoples religious beliefs instead of finding them totally hilarious. Sometimes, they try to engage you in conversation about them - and I just can't keep a straight face. So cute. So bizarre!

Totally respect peoples right to have 'em, mind. Just don't know if calling someone ignorant, because they find your beliefs a bit silly is...kosher.

I think finding ridicule in spiritualism is a convenient defence against thinking about existential concerns that some people are too afraid think about. To take a leaf out of Hawkin's book.

Cute! Bizarre! Very useful ways of minimising what's too hard to know.

xor · 17th May 2011, 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by pervy

Completely devoid of reason with the addition of name calling.... Good to see you're upholding traditional Christian values!

Are you saying that anyone who happens to be religious can't reason?

crocos · 17th May 2011, 15:32

No, they can reason. It's just that their arguments are not based on evidence therefore are not based in reason, thus unreasonable.

^BITES^ · 17th May 2011, 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocos

No, they can reason. It's just that their arguments are not based on evidence therefore are not based in reason, thus unreasonable.

Pretty much.

When it comes down to it the result 9/10 (from most) returns to "You just have to have faith" or something less commital.

The other 1 gets annoyed and starts treating you like the anti-christ or ranting/yelling his point... which considering the source material is also based on "belief" is like calling me a human and expecting me to be offended.

Always reminds me of...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

fixed_truth · 17th May 2011, 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocos

No, they can reason. It's just that their arguments are not based on evidence therefore are not based in reason, thus unreasonable.

There's no evidence that we have freewill, or (from this) that there is an "I" or "self" that can be pointed out as an entity separate from the mind-body complex. I don't think that it's unreasonable to believe in these things.

Lightspeed · 17th May 2011, 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocos

No, they can reason. It's just that their arguments are not based on evidence therefore are not based in reason, thus unreasonable.

Considering spirituality typically exists in the realm of the unknown, how do you expect anyone to produce evidence for their beliefs about the unknown?

crocos · 17th May 2011, 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

There's no evidence that we have freewill, or (from this) that there is an "I" or "self" that can be pointed out as an entity separate from the mind-body complex. I don't think that it's unreasonable to believe in these things.

Now that's interesting. My personal take is that there probably isn't such a thing as free will, but as long as I have the perception of free-will, I should behave in a manner that I feel behoves someone that has free will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Considering spirituality typically exists in the realm of the unknown, how do you expect anyone to produce evidence for their beliefs about the unknown?

Precisely: They can't, because it's fundamentally irrational. If they were able to find verifiable evidence that could have no other rational explanation, then it wouldn't be based in belief / wouldn't be in the realm of the unknown. I'm not going to get into a discussion of the Scientific Method here as it's been done to death dozens of times before on this board alone.

adonis · 17th May 2011, 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

There's no evidence that we have freewill, or (from this) that there is an "I" or "self" that can be pointed out as an entity separate from the mind-body complex. I don't think that it's unreasonable to believe in these things.

Self awareness is an interesting phenomenon, and I don't think that the combination of memory and senses can fully explain it, so I'll let the latter slide.

But on the former, most of the time I don't even know what people mean when they say 'free will'. It's a poorly defined concept. Rand described it as a 'non mechanical process'. I think it's reasonable to believe that everything in nature has a mechanism, so to me this implies that it's a supernatural concept. Do you agree with this?

pervy · 17th May 2011, 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Your post however was most mature and thought compelling.

I'm just trying to save people from the usual discourse that follows a "Hey LS, science and smart people say there is no God, let's hear some babble about why you disagree..." type post..... but hey, here we are!

pervy · 17th May 2011, 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by xor

Are you saying that anyone who happens to be religious can't reason?

Anyone and everyone, they can reason to a point, but that gets thrown out the window when it comes to anything regarding religion.

CCS · 17th May 2011, 19:57

Let's all just agree that religious people are unreasonable, ignorant, cock swabs and be done with this conversation. Sound good? Good.

16th April 2011, 17:09	#3
CCS Stunt Pants	Don't encourage him, crocos. __________________ I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner?

17th May 2011, 14:33	#29
A Corpse talkative lurker	Too many Jedis. __________________ Broke my addiction! Bye bye Eve, hello Minecraft. Wait... >_<

17th May 2011, 19:57	#40
CCS Stunt Pants	Let's all just agree that religious people are unreasonable, ignorant, cock swabs and be done with this conversation. Sound good? Good. __________________ I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner?

16th April 2011, 12:03	#1
Lightspeed	Is Hell Dead? http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...5080-5,00.html Great article in Time magazine about the growth of non-conservative Christianity in the US. In the Politics forum, to appease the ragers a little. __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

16th April 2011, 16:53	#2
crocos	sigh I suppose it is Church politics, even if there's no element of the secular politics that this subforum was set up for. But still: __________________ Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ ☼ N وكل يوم كنت تعيش في العبودية

16th April 2011, 17:36	#4
crocos	Good point. __________________ Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ ☼ N وكل يوم كنت تعيش في العبودية

16th May 2011, 16:18	#7
aR Que	saw the headline image and couldn't force myself to go further.

16th May 2011, 16:48	#8
fixed_truth	Made me think of the old analogy of listening to music on a radio, smashing the radio’s receiver, and thereby concluding that the radio was producing the music. __________________ Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong.

16th May 2011, 17:23	#9
Lightspeed	Well, I can think of numerous spiritual perspectives that would think differently, but obviously it is a perspective that gives Hawking comfort and allows him to pursue self-actualisation (as apparent in his work and passion.) __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

16th May 2011, 19:03	#10
Redneck	Did you actually read the article?

16th May 2011, 19:10	#11
Lightspeed	Yes. Twice now, trying to find what I assume you think I'm missing. __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

16th May 2011, 19:54	#13
Lightspeed	Do you regard yourself as a computer? Is that the sum of your existence? Do you think most people consider themselves that way? I certainly don't. Believing that one's self is the same as a computer is a spiritual perspective. Now, I guess I could assume Hawking has taken this perspective because his great mind came to a purely rational decision. But considering his condition and abilities, I can only imagine it gives him some comfort to think of his essence as some grand computer. __________________ Stay shook. No sook. Last edited by Lightspeed : 16th May 2011 at 19:57.

16th May 2011, 19:56	#14
Lightspeed	I assume Hawking equates the brain as the self (again, makes sense given his condition), because people generally consider the self that exists in the afterlife, not various organs. __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

16th May 2011, 20:30	#16
Lightspeed	Do you have an alternative imagining? Or do you only stick to the facts when it comes to considering what Mr Hawking has to say? __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

16th May 2011, 21:17	#19
StN I have detailed files	Hell not dead, Hell got complained on.

17th May 2011, 13:02	#24
Lightspeed	Your post however was most mature and thought compelling. __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

17th May 2011, 13:42	#25
cyc Objection!	Just like all your valuable posts eh, Lightshit?

17th May 2011, 14:08	#26
[WanG] Wandarah	I wish I could respect peoples religious beliefs instead of finding them totally hilarious. Sometimes, they try to engage you in conversation about them - and I just can't keep a straight face. So cute. So bizarre! Totally respect peoples right to have 'em, mind. Just don't know if calling someone ignorant, because they find your beliefs a bit silly is...kosher.

17th May 2011, 14:28	#28
^BITES^	On this could a mod make a "your beliefs" poll? ... I'm more curious than anything and should be interesting to see. Basically use the options from the census as the basis....? __________________ , ______ /l ,[____], l---⌐¬-0lllllll0- ()_) ()_)--o-)_)

17th May 2011, 15:32	#32
crocos	No, they can reason. It's just that their arguments are not based on evidence therefore are not based in reason, thus unreasonable. __________________ Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ ☼ N وكل يوم كنت تعيش في العبودية