USA Presidential Election 2016 Hype Train

[Spoon1]

https://www.politicalcompass.org/you...6.25&soc=-5.59

About what I expected.

[Ab]

Seems to me that pretty much any under-60 educated non-crazy New Zealander would come out as a rabid leftie anarchist.

[Ab]

Trump just swept Florida, Rubio's home state, and Rubio's out.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Ab

Seems to me that pretty much any under-60 educated non-crazy New Zealander would come out as a rabid leftie anarchist.

Why does NZG feel so bloody right wing then? And don't say that it's because I'm the most extreme lefty here. The amount of National support I see on this site...

[Nothing]

Also:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-al...b_9459766.html

There are two Democratic presidential primaries. One is almost over. The other is about to begin.

The first Democratic presidential primary runs from Feb. 1 to March 15. All 11 "Old South" states vote in that primary. We have two states left to go, but Hillary Clinton has won every one of the other nine, by an average of 43 points.

Outside those "Old South" states, 12 other states also have voted. Bernie Sanders has won nine of those races, Hillary Clinton has won only two, and there has been one tie (Iowa). The average result in those 12 states has been a Sanders win by just under 20 points.

The net effect of this (Hillary winning the "Old South" by 43 points, Bernie winning everywhere else by 20 points) is a Clinton lead among pledged delegates of 223 (specifically, 775 to 552).

[Heyzoos]

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Nothing

Why does NZG feel so bloody right wing then? And don't say that it's because I'm the most extreme lefty here. The amount of National support I see on this site...

Because you think that National is a right-wing party? it's not.

Right-wing parties don't pass laws legalising same-sex marriage, hold referenda on removing imperial regalia from the flag, increase paid parental leave, give kids free medical care, etc etc.

[Heyzoos]

Originally Posted by Nothing

Why does NZG feel so bloody right wing then? And don't say that it's because I'm the most extreme lefty here. The amount of National support I see on this site...

I don't think it's National support per se. More appreciation of their dominance over the other parties.

[blynk]

Originally Posted by Ab

Because you think that National is a right-wing party? it's not.

Right-wing parties don't pass laws legalising same-sex marriage, hold referenda on removing imperial regalia from the flag, increase paid parental leave, give kids free medical care, etc etc.

Agreed.

National is like Clinton.
Labour is like Sanders.
Luckily we don't have any major party fucktards that are like the GOP

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Ab

Because you think that National is a right-wing party? it's not.

Right-wing parties don't pass laws legalising same-sex marriage, hold referenda on removing imperial regalia from the flag, increase paid parental leave, give kids free medical care, etc etc.

They are, relatively speaking, though, further right than most of our other political parties. They are, for example, far enough right that the suggestion that we should legalise same-sex marriage certainly wasn't popular with all of their ministers.

Moreover, the neo-liberal agenda has shifted the whole political arena so far to the right that what used to be radical right is now very often thought of as fairly centrist. The fact that advocacy for the rights of minority groups has successfully achieved a shift in public perception such that we have reached a point where it is possible to have these legislative changes happen doesn't show that National are not a relatively right wing party.

A party might plausibly be a long way to the right on economic issues whilst still maintaining an apparently left facade on social issues. The problem is that as long as you're right wing on economic issues, that's going to have flow on right wing effects for a huge number of social issues.

It's like how we gave women the vote, but they're still economically disadvantaged compared to men. Oh how very left of us to give them the vote though. Or how American slaves were freed, but the estates that they worked on largely remained in the possession of the slave-owners. Oh, look how left we are! Things are so much more equal now. They're free to work for slave wages or not if they want to, since we still control all of the wealth.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Heyzoos

I don't think it's National support per se. More appreciation of their dominance over the other parties.

Perhaps that's it then, I really don't appreciate their dominance at all, it just seems awful to me.

[Heyzoos]

Originally Posted by Nothing

Perhaps that's it then, I really don't appreciate their dominance at all, it just seems awful to me.

I'm with you there.

[[LvN]N3misiS]

https://www.politicalcompass.org/chart?ec=0.88&soc=-2.0

I must be the odd one out

[MadMax]

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Nothing

They are, relatively speaking, though, further right than most of our other political parties.

I dispute that. National has been NZ's most popular party for the past decade or so because it's a centrist party able to cater to what the public wants. It's more left on most things than ACT, the Maori Party, Winston First, and the Conservative Party. How many political parties are there to National's left?

Originally Posted by Nothing

They are, for example, far enough right that the suggestion that we should legalise same-sex marriage certainly wasn't popular with all of their ministers.

It wasn't popular with all of Labour's MPs either, with none of NZ First's MPs, and even Mana's sole MP had to be forced to vote in favour of it by his membership.

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by [LvN]N3misiS

I must be the odd one out

Originally Posted by Ab

under-60 - educated - non-crazy - New Zealander

So which one is it

[fixed_truth]

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Ab

I dispute that. National has been NZ's most popular party for the past decade or so because it's a centrist party able to cater to what the public wants. It's more left on most things than ACT, the Maori Party, Winston First, and the Conservative Party. How many political parties are there to National's left?

It wasn't popular with all of Labour's MPs either, with none of NZ First's MPs, and even Mana's sole MP had to be forced to vote in favour of it by his membership.

Well, to National's left I supposed we'd have ALCP, Mana, perhaps the Internet party, Greens, Labour, probably the Ban 1080 Party, certainly the New Zealand Democratic Party for Social Credit.

I might also reasonably disagree with you over whether Winston First is really further right than National. IMO selling off state owned assets isn't really a very left policy, and National have been pretty aggressive about doing that. By contrast Winston First actually advocates buying our assets back. I'd say that alone is enough to put it left of National. Wikipedia seems to agree with me, listing NZ First as being centrist, and National as being Centre-right.

I don't really know what to think about the Maori party being right of national, I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt on that one. But even giving you the benefit of the doubt, by my count we've got 8 parties to the left of National, and only 5 to the right. Even if I was wrong about Winston First, that would still only bring you back to 6 right of national with 7 left.

As to the issue of change on Marriage, I'd be willing to bet that the change in policy was much more popular with Labour MPs than National MPs, proportionally speaking.

[Ab]

your goalposts are moving so fast I don't know what your points are any more.

[pxpx]

According to that graph I should be voting green.

[Nothing]

I was trying to see if I could get my goalposts to break the Lightspeed barrier.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Nothing

I might also reasonably disagree with you over whether Winston First is really further right than National.

demonising immigrants and foreigners, voting against marriage equality, campaigning on policies of law and order, arguing for retention of colonial symbols, yep that sure sounds like a bunch of hippy leftist shit to me, you must be right

[Nothing]

Yeah, I'm not saying I like them at all. In fact I don't. But economically speaking, which is a pretty major one, they're left of National. Being economically rightwards, IMO, leads to a hell of a lot of awful shit, socially speaking. Stuff like de-funding rape crisis centres, for instance.

[pxpx]

Back to the US...

Trump's Popularity in Context:
http://www.gallup.com/opinion/pollin...y-context.aspx

[Cyberbob]

[Ab]

Democracy is a great idea in theory, because in theory all electors are educated rational moral agents.

America is fucked because for generations it has starved its populace intellectually. The country is on the wane in terms of its wealth and international influence, and a huge chunk of the population burns with resentment about it. They feel ripped off and scared of everyone that isn't them.

Stupid scared people who know they used to be powerful and hate that they aren't now are incredibly susceptible to charismatic male authority figures saying shit like "make America great again" and "it's all the Jews' fault".

Edit update: one of the things that fascinates/scares me the most about this situation is the way that Trump has hijacked the Republican party's rage machine. The Republican party itself had hijacked the grassroots Tea Party movement and used it as an anti-Obama tool, whipping it up into a rabid hatefest against Obama and everything he stood for - black people, educated people, foreigners - and then NEK MINIT along comes Donald Trump who just goes "I'll take that movement thank you very much, now fuck off".

Trump doesn't need the GOP Establishment, he doesn't need their campaign machine, he doesn't need their donors, he sure as fuck doesn't need their media lapdogs (he just said "I don't need to go on Fox News, fuck'em" and won't be attending the next candidate debate). The GOP created this monster and Trump has just come along and annexed it. It's his monster now. This whole clusterfuck has probably destroyed the Republican Party.

[Cyberbob]

Originally Posted by Ab

This whole clusterfuck has probably destroyed the Republican Party.

A lot of people thought 2008's loss and clusterfuck would have the GOP doing some serious soul searching about how they want to rebuild themselves. Didn't happen.
2012? No different.

I'd like to think 2016 will be the year, but I'm not so sure.

Every time it's "how can this get any worse"

[CCS]

Originally Posted by Cyberbob

A lot of people thought 2008's loss and clusterfuck would have the GOP doing some serious soul searching about how they want to rebuild themselves. Didn't happen.

Same thing happened in NZ in 2008. The reaction of the party was the same. "The people voted wrong! They need to be told they voted wrong!"

I should point out that the GOP's 2008 candidate wasn't all that terrible.

[Heyzoos]

Originally Posted by Ab

Democracy is a great idea in theory, because in theory all electors are educated rational moral agents.

America is fucked because for generations it has starved its populace intellectually. The country is on the wane in terms of its wealth and international influence, and a huge chunk of the population burns with resentment about it. They feel ripped off and scared of everyone that isn't them.

Stupid scared people who know they used to be powerful and hate that they aren't now are incredibly susceptible to charismatic male authority figures saying shit like "make America great again" and "it's all the Jews' fault".

Edit update: one of the things that fascinates/scares me the most about this situation is the way that Trump has hijacked the Republican party's rage machine. The Republican party itself had hijacked the grassroots Tea Party movement and used it as an anti-Obama tool, whipping it up into a rabid hatefest against Obama and everything he stood for - black people, educated people, foreigners - and then NEK MINIT along comes Donald Trump who just goes "I'll take that movement thank you very much, now fuck off".

Trump doesn't need the GOP Establishment, he doesn't need their campaign machine, he doesn't need their donors, he sure as fuck doesn't need their media lapdogs (he just said "I don't need to go on Fox News, fuck'em" and won't be attending the next candidate debate). The GOP created this monster and Trump has just come along and annexed it. It's his monster now. This whole clusterfuck has probably destroyed the Republican Party.

Great summary. Office bulletin board material.

[Ab]

Cheers. The ideas are all uniquely mine of course and have not been expressed anywhere on the whole Internet other than in that post.

[spigalau]

You only have to watch the 2006 movie Idiocracy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/) to see where the US of A is heading...

[Heyzoos]

Originally Posted by spigalau

You only have to watch the 2006 movie Idiocracy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/) to see where the US of A is heading...

We may have arrived at our destination.

https://prezi.com/-i49q8wvo6_q/the-e...ade-on-plants/

[Ab]

TRUMP'S GOT WHAT MURKA CRAVES!

[Cyberbob]

Originally Posted by CCS

I should point out that the GOP's 2008 candidate wasn't all that terrible.

McCain was the definition of an American hero, characterised as a "Maverick", i.e. anti-establishment enough to be appealing to people sick of the way things are, promising to get things changed/done. He was set up to win.

How the GOP ran their 2008 campaign, including the selection of his running mate, was an absolute trainwreck. He ended up being set up to fail.

[Lightspeed]

Yeah, McCain seems like a stand-up guy. He must be despairing right now.

[Ab]

He seems like a selfish senile old prick.

[CCS]

Originally Posted by Cyberbob

McCain was the definition of an American hero, characterised as a "Maverick", i.e. anti-establishment enough to be appealing to people sick of the way things are, promising to get things changed/done. He was set up to win.

How the GOP ran their 2008 campaign, including the selection of his running mate, was an absolute trainwreck. He ended up being set up to fail.

Both Labour and the GOP were victims of the same thing in 2008: their own hubris. Not only did they deserve to win, they were destined to. They couldn't fathom how they lost. And then they got angry.

[The Edge]

Originally Posted by Ab

He seems like a selfish senile old prick.

He's probably worse now. Sarah Palin was his undoing. I always thought he chose her to capitalise on the fact that Hillary didn't get the Democratic nomination in 2008.

It's a different story in 2016 though.

[crocos]

Have to say though, Trump > ... > Ted Cruz.

[Nothing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTz7DlhlZiE

Be afraid.