National Thus Far

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Ab

Yeah, and when the National govt does something to increase the ways in which NZ engages with, say, the USA - number 8 on the per-capita list - that's always met with such universal approval.

You mean when National kowtows to the US government? I'd rather the Lange approach.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

You mean when National kowtows to the US government? I'd rather the Lange approach.

Telling them to get fucked and then getting dropped from the Xmas-card list for a generation? yeah, that's engagement 101, no question.

[CCS]

[Rince]

collective active problems
collective action problems


both are just weasel words

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Ab

Telling them to get fucked and then getting dropped from the Xmas-card list for a generation? yeah, that's engagement 101, no question.

Gee, if only NZ had the option to engage with, say, the rest of the world instead worshipping the US?

I suppose it's moot at this point, either way we're fucked short of a technological miracle.

Originally Posted by Rince

both are just weasel words

Like the word "society" is eh, AMIRITE Margaret?!

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Gee, if only NZ had the option to engage with, say, the rest of the world instead worshipping the US?

Who gives a fuck about the rest of the world? 40 percent of the world's greenhouse emissions come from two countries. Engage with them.

[Lightspeed]

Yeah, engage with with them, with the rest of the world at our back. But we've got no authority to offer any leadership while we're have some of the highest emissions per capita in the world.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

NZ could be a world leader in both these regards. But we're not.

This. A thousand times this.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Rince

collective active problems
collective action problems


both are just weasel words

Go and do some fucking research, you ignoramus.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Yeah, engage with with them, with the rest of the world at our back. But we've got no authority to offer any leadership while we're have some of the highest emissions per capita in the world.

By "highest" you mean "in thirty-fifth place", right? Fuckin' BERMUDA has higher per-cap CO2 emissions than New Zealand.

[Nothing]

You know, 33rd place, out of what, 196 countries? So, like, 85% of the nations of the world have lower per capita emissions than us.

Say it with me, motherfucker, "NZ could be a world leader".

[CCS]

Originally Posted by Nothing

Go and do some fucking research, you ignoramus.

You keep going on about your collective action problems and shouting down anybody who doesn't instantly concede to your amazing argument winner, but so far you seem to be unwilling to actually explain what you're on about. Maybe instead moaning about how ignorant everyone else is, you could actually expand on what you mean rather than just saying COLLECTIVE ACTION PROBLEMS over and over.

[Nothing]

Fair call bro. Here's some reading for you, since you asked so nicely.

http://www.garretthardinsociety.org/...e_commons.html

Or if you want the short version:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Nothing

You know, 33rd place, out of what, 196 countries? So, like, 85% of the nations of the world have lower per capita emissions than us.

Take a look at those countries lower than us on the list and tell me what most of them have in common.

[CCS]

Originally Posted by Nothing

Fair call bro. Here's some reading for you, since you asked so nicely.

http://www.garretthardinsociety.org/...e_commons.html

Or if you want the short version:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action

If you can't sum up your argument succintly, I gather it's not a worthwhile one.

[Nothing]

If you can't be bothered reading the content of either of those links, I gather you weren't really interested in the answer to the question you asked.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Ab

Take a look at those countries lower than us on the list and tell me what most of them have in common.

Do enlighten me, O wise one, what do they have in common?

[CCS]

Originally Posted by Nothing

If you can't be bothered reading the content of either of those links, I gather you weren't really interested in the answer to the question you asked.

Umm... you're the one trumpeting an argument that you're having trouble articulating. It's in your interest to put forward the argument coherently - it's not up to me to do it for you. I guess you don't have that much confidence in your argument?

[pxpx]

"Collective action is traditionally defined as any action taken together by a group of people whose goal is to enhance their status and achieve a common objective. It is enacted by a representative of the group. It is a term that has formulations and theories in many areas of the social sciences including psychology, sociology, anthropology, political science and economics."

That's cool, so why should we vote greens again?

[Nothing]

It's all there in those links, coherently articulated as you please. It's certainly well within my ability to articulate it if I so choose, but I see no reason why I should duplicate effort explaining it to you, when it's all explained in those links perfectly clearly. I say again - you're not really interested in the answer. If you were, you'd be reading right now.

[Nothing]

pxpx - you want the section of that article labelled "collective action problems".

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Nothing

Do enlighten me, O wise one, what do they have in common?

They're third-world shitholes. Not having the carbon footprint of a wealthy industrialised western country seems to mysteriously go hand in hand with not being a wealthy industrialised western country. Which is where I'm guessing you and I both want to live.

[Nothing]

Oh right, so, like, Sweden, for instance, 24 places further down the list from NZ? Yeah, they're pretty third world.

My point, here, in case you are missing it, is that there is more we could be doing, and we have no good reason not to be doing it.

[Lightspeed]

Well, one good reason. We've accepted we're fucked and we're doing our best to ride it out with a smile.

[Nothing]

^not a good reason.

[CCS]

Originally Posted by Nothing

It's all there in those links, coherently articulated as you please. It's certainly well within my ability to articulate it if I so choose, but I see no reason why I should duplicate effort explaining it to you, when it's all explained in those links perfectly clearly. I say again - you're not really interested in the answer. If you were, you'd be reading right now.

Oh right. So, as per your name, you've got nothing. Your argument is a lot of frothing at the mouth.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Nothing

Oh right, so, like, Sweden

Ladies and gentlemen, Asperger Syndrome

[Golden Teapot]

Originally Posted by Nothing

Oh right, so, like, Sweden, for instance, 24 places further down the list from NZ? Yeah, they're pretty third world.

I wonder is this is related to the problem they have of the sun being invisible for parts of the year? Actually, I don't need to wonder - I thought everyone knew this already.

You're not even try are you? Come back with a proper example please.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Golden Teapot

I wonder is this is related to the problem they have of the sun being invisible for parts of the year? Actually, I don't need to wonder - I thought everyone knew this already.

You're not even try are you? Come back with a proper example please.

Yeah, I would have thought that the problem they have of the sun being invisible for parts of the year would, if anything, make it HARDER for them to keep the size of their per capita carbon consumption down, rather than easier. New Zealand has the option of solar production all year round (I'll grant you, not the best solar production in the winter, but still...), and we still have higher per capita consumption than Sweden does.

I'm not sure that what you wrote here even makes sense GT. Go home, you're obviously drunk.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Ab

Ladies and gentlemen, Asperger Syndrome

So, when it comes down to it, after looking at all of your objections and realising they're all bollocks, you just fall back on the old ad hominem eh? Well done sir, well done.

[DrTiTus]

For a minute there I thought we were going to unlock the "intelligent conversation" achievement. Fuck it, start again another day I think.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Nothing

So, when it comes down to it, after looking at all of your objections and realising they're all bollocks, you just fall back on the old ad hominem eh? Well done sir, well done.

Just pretend, for the sake of it, that when I said "most of them" I'd actually specifically said "most of them, with the obvious exceptions of places that have like fucking nuclear power plants and shit".

[crocos]

Originally Posted by Ab

Just pretend, for the sake of it, that when I said "most of them" I'd actually specifically said "most of them, with the obvious exceptions of places that have like fucking nuclear power plants and shit,".

So you were having trouble conveying your argument...

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Ab

Just pretend, for the sake of it, that when I said "most of them" I'd actually specifically said "most of them, with the obvious exceptions of places that have like fucking nuclear power plants and shit,".

Even with that qualification, doesn't really change anything tbh. I'm really not a fan of nuclear, but if it helps to reduce carbon emissions then fuck yeah. In NZ we're fortunate enough to have a lot of options other than nuclear available. But never mind that eh, let's just keep investing in fossil fuels and opening coal fired power plants. She'll be right mate.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Nothing

Even with that qualification, doesn't really change anything

So me specifically excluding places like Sweden from the list does not change the fact that you wish to draw our attention to places like Sweden on the list?

IS THIS REAL LIFE

[pxpx]

Ab get a better argument I mean come on, we're the mouse that's got to put the bell on that cat and fuck me if it kills us in the process.

[Lightspeed]

Wut? You can't mock someone's use of "get a better argument" just after they explained what they thought the weakness of the argument was. I mean, you can, obviously, but your lack of addressing the argument just makes it look like you're wanting to join in but don't have anything to say.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by Ab

So me specifically excluding places like Sweden from the list does not change the fact that you wish to draw our attention to places like Sweden on the list?

IS THIS REAL LIFE

Well I guess it might change it, if you've got a really good reason for excluding them. But excluding them simply because it's convenient for your argument is not a good reason for excluding them.

[Nothing]

Originally Posted by pxpx

Ab get a better argument I mean come on, we're the mouse that's got to put the bell on that cat and fuck me if it kills us in the process.

There's always a point at which an analogy fails, and I think you're taking the cat-belling analogy past the point at which it fails. To suggest that doing more to reduce our per capita carbon foot print would 'kill us' is totally ridiculous. Gratz bruh.

[Nothing]

CCS, you keep gagging for an explanation of what collective action problems actually are. So I'm just going to

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

It's all well and good to declare it someone else's fault, but we all suffer as a result.

Hence why, collective action problems.