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Old 9th November 2015, 17:51     #1
Lightspeed
 
Christmas Island

Christmas Island rioting
NZ response

One poor bugger's sob story

I mean, starting a bush fire sounds like a bad idea in Aussie, but indefinitely exiled bad?

It's pretty messed up that Aussie has put this in place and NZ is letting it go on. Creeping authoritarianism.
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Old 9th November 2015, 19:43     #2
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
"That NZ is letting it go on"? WTF is NZ supposed to do about it?
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Old 9th November 2015, 20:02     #3
Lightspeed
 
Do you mean what is NZ supposed to do about it? Or what NZ is supposed to do about it without upsetting anyone important?
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Old 9th November 2015, 20:05     #4
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Whichever you feel like answering. Commentary on your example of a UK citizen getting deported would be welcome.
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Old 9th November 2015, 20:10     #5
crocos
 
Yes, seriously, either would do.

Are you expecting NZ to land forces on another sovereign nation's territory, utterly fucking up NZ's relations with Aussie, not to mention probably fucking over the economy of the whole south pacific?

If not, then what are you expecting?
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Old 9th November 2015, 20:13     #6
crocos
 
And your "poor bugger" story is more a reflection of their fucked up Migration Act than of any particular way Christmas Island is run or this riot.
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Old 9th November 2015, 20:13     #7
Deadmeat
 
I'm all for invading Australia... it's the last thing they'd expect, we'd have surprise on our side for sure
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Old 9th November 2015, 20:44     #8
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
So how could Australia change its policy and still save face? Two possibilities stand out in my mind. First, the threshold for deportation could be lifted for New Zealanders . . .

Alternatively, New Zealanders could await deportation in the community rather than in Australia's horrendous detention centres.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/key-turn...-centre-shadow
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Old 9th November 2015, 21:08     #9
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crocos
If not, then what are you expecting?
I'm certainly no expert. Most of what I know of diplomacy is via the news. I always hope for more informed views.

I would assume that the most effective means to communicate any serious concern to Australia would be some kind of economic or bureaucratic pain, enough to make some kind of noise in Australia. Something maybe to wake them up to the idea that what they're doing is draconian bullshit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Commentary on your example of a UK citizen getting deported would be welcome.
It was an article in the news, and as robust as such, to be taken as it is. It wasn't the best example I came up with after a rigorous search. I thought it highlighted the seemingly unjust nature of the prison and how people end up sent there.
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Old 9th November 2015, 23:22     #10
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
According to Australian law you may get sent there if you are

a) convicted of a crime in Australia and receive a prison sentence of a year or more

AND

b) do not hold Australian citizenship or permanent residency

Perhaps you could point out the injustice for me in small words.
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Old 10th November 2015, 07:23     #11
spigalau
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
b) do not hold Australian citizenship or permanent residency

Perhaps you could point out the injustice for me in small words.
Wouldn't the injustice be having to become an Aussie ? It's not like you have to renounce your kiwi citizenship either. Just too fucking lazy.

Seriously, you do the crime, you do the time, you get deported. If you don't want to get deported, stop being a crim ffs.
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Old 10th November 2015, 07:26     #12
fixed_truth
 
Is this one of those 'it's legal so it's fine' arguments?

From my understanding of what's going on here's a few things I have a problem with -

Some of these people have served their prison sentence(s) years ago.

Some of these people have been living in Australia most of there lives.

These people either have to immediately leave Australia or get put in a detention centre for what could be a significant amount of time.
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Old 10th November 2015, 07:28     #13
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spigalau
Seriously, you do the crime, you do the time, you get deported. If you don't want to get deported, stop being a crim ffs.
They have done the time. Some a long time ago.
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Old 10th November 2015, 07:29     #14
pxpx
 
Heard the back end of an interview with an Aussie journalist on the radio that Australia had taken a pasting overnight at the UN:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0SY1XP20151109
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Old 10th November 2015, 07:36     #15
pxpx
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
Some of these people have served their prison sentence(s) years ago.
Wait, so people who have served their sentence and are essentially out living their lives have been arrested again and sent to this place? Dafuq?
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Old 10th November 2015, 07:59     #16
fixed_truth
 
Afaik it was when the law was passed. I'm not sure if that was recently amended?
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Old 10th November 2015, 11:47     #17
crocos
 
<redundant post is redundant, so deleted>
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Last edited by crocos : 10th November 2015 at 11:48.
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Old 10th November 2015, 12:06     #18
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pxpx
Wait, so people who have served their sentence and are essentially out living their lives have been arrested again and sent to this place? Dafuq?
Yep:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
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Old 10th November 2015, 12:41     #19
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pxpx
Wait, so people who have served their sentence and are essentially out living their lives have been arrested again and sent to this place? Dafuq?
I'm not suggesting this is happening or will, but it feels like a step closer to the government being able to arbitrarily round up and ship off those undesirable to the state.

Given the power states wield and the historical consequences of state power out of control, I think any steps in this direction always need to be opposed by those who value liberty.
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Old 10th November 2015, 13:37     #20
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Like most countries Australia has a "character test" for nonresidents/noncitizens to be allowed to stay in the country on visitor visas. Under Australian law a person in Australia on a visitor visa crosses the line to "bad character" after 12 months jail time, at which point that person is considered to have failed the character test and his/her visa is revoked.

People who entered Australia with visas that no longer exist are considered overstayers and those people are deported, just like happens in NZ. While the wheels of bureacracy slowly turn the people awaiting deportation are placed in "detention centres". (Not always though - some people seem to get escorted straight from jail to the airport.)

Until the current government came to power following the last Australian general election there was some wiggle room for the Dept of Immigration to exercise "discretion" and allow the overstayer in question to remain in the country while trying to sort out a visa. That ability to exercise discretion has been removed, so now it's "if you don't have a visa you're not allowed to be here, door's to your left, the end".
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Old 10th November 2015, 16:08     #21
fixed_truth
 
John Key stoops to a new low. What a cock
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti...ectid=11543038
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Old 10th November 2015, 16:26     #22
Heyzoos
Robosexual
 
Be proud Australia.

What did children say about detention centres?

Quote:
I want to tell you that actually I spent about fifteen nights in the ride to Australia. I was in a small boat if you want to call that a boat, because it was smaller than that, with lots of difficulties. When I saw [we were] getting near Australia I was becoming a little bit hopeful. When we passed Darwin I got to the detention centre, as soon as I looked at these barbed wires my mind was full of fear. That was the time that I experienced fear …

Unaccompanied Afghan boy found to be a refugee, Melbourne focus group
Quote:
I think every Australian knows what a prison is, what a prison looks like and what happens in a prison … prisoners they know when they’re going to be released … and at that date they’re going to get their freedom … But in detention centre, like no one knows when they’re going be released. Tomorrow, day after tomorrow, for two years, like, you know, waiting how much hard it is …

Teenage boy found to be a refugee, Brisbane focus group
Quote:
I think that the children should be free and when they are there for one year or two years they are just wasting their time, they could go to school and they could learn something. They could be free. Instead they are like a bird in a cage.

Ten-year-old Afghan girl found to be a refugee,
Perth focus group
Quote:
We came here because we wanted freedom. We did not come to be imprisoned for three years. Nothing will help us, only freedom will help us. We want to be free – that is all.

Detainee boy, Baxter
https://www.humanrights.gov.au/publi...tion-australia
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Old 10th November 2015, 18:07     #23
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
John Key stoops to a new low. What a cock
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti...ectid=11543038
So there are no rapists, child molesters, or murderers in the detention centre?
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Old 10th November 2015, 18:38     #24
fixed_truth
 
C'mon CCS you know what's going on here.

Quote:
But Key's reaction in the House was completely disproportionate to the corridor cat-calling. Way over the top.

When Key accused Labour of supporting rapists and child molesters while he, Key, supported New Zealanders, Labour MPs were entitled to feel deeply offended.

Technically Key is right that Labour have been supporting criminals on Christmas Island, but their legal and human rights.

Key's accusation implied that Labour supported child molestation and Labour supported rape.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/ne...ectid=11543107
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Old 10th November 2015, 18:42     #25
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyzoos
What did children say about detention centres?

https://www.humanrights.gov.au/publi...tion-australia
different issue
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Old 10th November 2015, 18:55     #26
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
So there are no rapists, child molesters, or murderers in the detention centre?
If they're in this detention centre, they've been released from prison and have done their time. Only to be flung into another prison. Those that are still serving time are not being deported until after they are released from their current sentences.

That aside, this is also impacting those that are not violent offenders. The comment on Key's part was unworthy of anyone that aspires to be prime minister, and he should have known better.

Also if you want to talk about "backing rapists", remind me again which party cut the funding to Christchurch's only rape crisis centre, causing it to close? Clue: It was National.
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Last edited by crocos : 10th November 2015 at 18:57.
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Old 10th November 2015, 19:00     #27
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
different issue
Different, but related issue, as it's those conditions that led directly to the riot.
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Old 10th November 2015, 19:05     #28
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Remember, the NZ detainees on Christmas Island are there by choice. The AU govt has said "if you wish to dispute your immigration status we will fly you to the country that you actually are a citizen of and you can make whatever visa submissions you like from there".

FUCK NZ I DON'T WANT TO GO TO NZ I'D RATHER STAY HERE IN THIS DETENTION CENTRE THAN END UP IN NZ isn't exactly the most endearing position to take.
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Old 10th November 2015, 19:10     #29
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crocos
The comment on Key's part was unworthy of anyone that aspires to be prime minister, and he should have known better.
Politics. He knew exactly what he was doing. Key knows that all he has to do is let Labour paint itself as "the party on the side of the rapists and murderers" and it's hello next term in government. For some reason Labour seems quite happy for this to happen.
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Old 10th November 2015, 19:28     #30
crocos
 
Key's the only one making such aspersions. It's hardly Labour painting themselves into that position.

However I DO expect Labour to bungle message control, so your prediction may be correct.
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Old 10th November 2015, 21:16     #31
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Politics. He knew exactly what he was doing.
And what that is is something that's for the benefit of NZ? That just because JK will stoop so low to hold onto power doesn't mean he will use that power inappropriately?

Or do you believe that this question is for the birds? That only power and the ability to hold onto it is for consideration?
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Old 10th November 2015, 21:40     #32
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
FUCK NZ I DON'T WANT TO GO TO NZ I'D RATHER STAY HERE IN THIS DETENTION CENTRE THAN END UP IN NZ isn't exactly the most endearing position to take.
I find people willing to endure suffering rather than succumbing to powerful forces admirable.

What this leaves me wondering is, is it actually not that bad in detention or do the inmates unwilling to be sent "home" fear something greater? Separation from the life one knows to be abandoned to the unknown is not something many can bear well.

The economic models we rely on tell us humans will act rationally, so we must assume those staying over accepting deportation are making what they believe is the best decision available to them.
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Old 10th November 2015, 23:51     #33
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
And what that is is something that's for the benefit of NZ? That just because JK will stoop so low to hold onto power doesn't mean he will use that power inappropriately?

Or do you believe that this question is for the birds? That only power and the ability to hold onto it is for consideration?
NZ has no leverage here. All it can say is "repatriate our citizens to us as quickly as possible". The problem is that at least some of the NZ citizens in question have no desire to be in NZ because they're not Kiwis.

Well, I mean obviously at a higher level the problem is Australia's 444 visa scheme combined with human ignorance.
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Old 11th November 2015, 01:04     #34
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Check this out

Quote:
A New Zealand war hero is being kept in a high-security prison by Australian authorities despite having committed no crime.

Decorated former Lance Corporal Ngati Kanohi Te Eke Haapu, better known as Ko Rutene, has been detained because his visa was revoked on the grounds that he is a member of a motorcycle club.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/7390...r-visa-revoked


wheeeee
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Old 11th November 2015, 07:58     #35
Genesis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
So, did he spend 12 months in prison? I can't see anything referring to him having served a prison sentence.

Fuck, glad I got out of there when I did. I wouldn't want to be locked up in a 'fun time' camp for watering my garden on a Saturday in Queensland.
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Old 11th November 2015, 08:57     #36
Fx.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesis
So, did he spend 12 months in prison? I can't see anything referring to him having served a prison sentence.
despite having committed no crime.

Decorated former Lance Corporal Ngati Kanohi Te Eke Haapu, better known as Ko Rutene, has been detained because his visa was revoked on the grounds that he is a member of a motorcycle club.
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Old 11th November 2015, 09:07     #37
ZoSo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
NZ has no leverage here. All it can say is "repatriate our citizens to us as quickly as possible". The problem is that at least some of the NZ citizens in question have no desire to be in NZ because they're not Kiwis.
But Little said it's doable with a phone call? c'mon man!

Quote:
Crimes for which New Zealanders are awaiting deportation:

Child sex offences (including pornography) – 34
Murder (including manslaughter) – 22
Rape, sex offences – 16
Assault (including grievous bodily harm) – 121
Theft, robbery (including armed), breaking and entering – 83
Drug offences – 64
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Old 11th November 2015, 09:11     #38
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
They talk about him being a war hero but all he's got is service medals. He's not a Willy Apiata. He got the same medals everyone else got.
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Old 11th November 2015, 09:19     #39
ZoSo
 
Christmas Island detainees living in fear as Kiwis 'bash' weaker inmates

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/austral...weaker-inmates

Quote:
A mob of aggressive New Zealanders has been terrorising other detainees inside Christmas Island detention centre for weeks, leaving asylum-seekers fearing for their lives.

Dozens of Kiwis are locked up in the Australian detention facility - many had their visas revoked on character grounds under section 501 of Australia's Migration Act, earning them the nickname "501s".

But while they may not have committed crimes, fellow detainees say inside Christmas Island detention centre, the Kiwis are anything but innocent.

A distressed Lebanese detainee told The Australian he feared for his life at the hands of the 501s during a riot that broke out on Monday.

"They're f***ing going to kill me ... We are in danger. You need to tell someone who cares that our prison is in the hands of very serious criminals."
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Old 11th November 2015, 10:05     #40
pxpx
 
lol qed

But still, criminal or not - you gotta treat them like people eh, sort it out strayah plz.
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