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Old 10th February 2011, 15:07     #121
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GM
I think the colloquial phrase for that is: Wake up call.
And for a few it will work. But thousands of years of human history suggest that people need more than a "wake-up call" to get themselves cycles of trauma, poverty and crime.
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Old 10th February 2011, 15:18     #122
tilde
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
Or if they can’t keep their legs closed, they shouldn’t come begging from me?

Just out of interest, what do you think is the purpose of the DPB?
to provide for the child when relationships go bad? i guess most of the anger is directed at those who actively choose going on the DPB as a lifestyle choice, rather than a safety net.

ie. family in longer term relationship breaks-up and the breadwinner leaves, DPB is used to ensure child(ren) does not suffer = good
young girl with no future and not in relationship decides to get pregnant just to get money from DPB = bad
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Old 10th February 2011, 15:50     #123
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tilde
to provide for the child when relationships go bad? i guess most of the anger is directed at those who actively choose going on the DPB as a lifestyle choice, rather than a safety net.
ie. family in longer term relationship breaks-up and the breadwinner leaves, DPB is used to ensure child(ren) does not suffer = good
young girl with no future and not in relationship decides to get pregnant just to get money from DPB = bad
People actively choosing to get pregnant for the DPB is a bit of a myth. The cost of raising a child pretty much eats up all the money from the DPB. In reality someone struggling to get by on the DPB isn't going to get pregnant as a solution to their money problems.

And regardless of why someone has kids, the kids exist, and they don't deserve to be punished because of this.
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Old 10th February 2011, 16:02     #124
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
You take arguments in a particular direction. If you need evidence, there's a forum called NZGames.com. You'll find arguments there that devolve into semantics and you'll find a common theme. A poster by the alias CCS.
No, that's actually not the common theme. I only get into semantic arguments with you and, recently, your protege fixed_truth. You, otoh, always get into these semantic arguments. F'rexample, any religion thread. And then you start waffling on about perception.

Quote:
It's true I might be intellectually dishonest, but it seems only in the context of you, CCS.
No, not only in 'the context of me'. A lot of people here have called you intellectually dishonest and it's for the simple fact that you are.
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Old 10th February 2011, 16:25     #125
leadinjector
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
People actively choosing to get pregnant for the DPB is a bit of a myth. The cost of raising a child pretty much eats up all the money from the DPB. In reality someone struggling to get by on the DPB isn't going to get pregnant as a solution to their money problems.

And regardless of why someone has kids, the kids exist, and they don't deserve to be punished because of this.
i would have thought it had more to do with no hopers having kids to improve their opinion of themselves. most people ive met who are DPB mothers are pretty fucking high and mighty about motherhood (not that ive met a huge amount ill admit)
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Old 10th February 2011, 20:14     #126
cyc
Objection!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
No, not only in 'the context of me'. A lot of people here have called you intellectually dishonest and it's for the simple fact that you are.
Don't really wish to get involved with the debate at large but this has to be right. I for one put myself firmly in the camp of those who consider Lolspeed to be intellectually dishonest.
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Old 10th February 2011, 21:20     #127
Lightspeed
 
Yeah, but you work in law. I'd be surprised if you didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
No, that's actually not the common theme. I only get into semantic arguments with you and, recently, your protege fixed_truth.
I'm pretty sure I could find at least a couple of examples of you either accusing someone of arguing semantics or someone accusing you of the same.

But you're nuts if you think there are "simple facts" about people. I mean, unless you're from the 19th century when people still believed such things.
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Old 10th February 2011, 22:03     #128
cyc
Objection!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
But you're nuts if you think there are "simple facts" about people. I mean, unless you're from the 19th century when people still believed such things.
Shit Lolspeed you're soooooo insightful.
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Old 10th February 2011, 22:32     #129
Lightspeed
 
Yeah, about as insightful as pointing out the world is round.
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Old 10th February 2011, 23:12     #130
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
I'm pretty sure I could find at least a couple of examples of you either accusing someone of arguing semantics or someone accusing you of the same.
Only if it involves you.

Quote:
But you're nuts if you think there are "simple facts" about people. I mean, unless you're from the 19th century when people still believed such things.
That's a load of horseshit. There are complex facts about people and sometimes - yes, there are simple facts about people. Cyc is a lawyer. ccs has blue eyes. Lolspeed is a fraud who tries to dress things up in multiple layers of horseshit because it makes him feel intellectual. Simple facts.

BTW, you were actually far more likeable when you were just an annoying born-again. Y'know, before you started all this lofty psychological know-it-all horseshit.
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Old 10th February 2011, 23:57     #131
cyc
Objection!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
That's a load of horseshit. There are complex facts about people and sometimes - yes, there are simple facts about people. Cyc is a lawyer. ccs has blue eyes. Lolspeed is a fraud who tries to dress things up in multiple layers of horseshit because it makes him feel intellectual. Simple facts.
You'd better be careful. Lolspeed will probably come up with some retort to the effect that how do you know I am not a pathological liar who's really a KGB spy behind a big, bad computer screen telling porkies and how you actually know that you really exist etc.
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Old 11th February 2011, 00:39     #132
chiQ
Frag-muff
 
TLNs w 2 Cs FTW

C&C tagteam!
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Old 11th February 2011, 00:42     #133
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
wat
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Old 11th February 2011, 00:42     #134
chiQ
Frag-muff
 
woo
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Old 11th February 2011, 00:51     #135
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
On drugs again :P
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Old 11th February 2011, 01:02     #136
chiQ
Frag-muff
 
Pretty much all of the time at the moment...but yes, just took another dose half an hour ago.

I agree with you about Lightspeed, by the way. I used to suffer pretty serious bouts of intellectual dishonesty myself, until I realised it's more fun to actually learn from discussion, so I'm familiar with it.
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Old 11th February 2011, 08:02     #137
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
Only if it involves you.
Not me.

Quote:
That's a load of horseshit. There are complex facts about people and sometimes - yes, there are simple facts about people. Cyc is a lawyer. ccs has blue eyes. Lolspeed is a fraud who tries to dress things up in multiple layers of horseshit because it makes him feel intellectual. Simple facts.
Hahah, wow, real simple.

chiQ, I might pay attention to these claims of "intellectual dishonesty", if it weren't rolled out anytime anyone starts ragin'.

There's also that people respond to me and my views quite differently in person than on NZG.
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Old 11th February 2011, 08:09     #138
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
There's also that people respond to me and my views quite differently in person than on NZG.
Try reading this http://www.amazon.com/59-Seconds-Lit...7364912&sr=8-3.
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Old 11th February 2011, 08:45     #139
Lightspeed
 
That looks interesting, Richard Wiseman seems a bit like the UK version of Nigel Latta (although his pitching of some psychic TV show at the end of the 2nd Ed. of Into The Darklands kind of put me off him.)
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Old 11th February 2011, 09:00     #140
Lightspeed
 
Although, I don't know why you think I should read it in context of what you quoted.

I mean, what would you think in my situation?

For example, I find it easy to obtain and hold down jobs of a technical and interpersonal nature and I get on well with work colleagues.

I have close friends from a variety of backgrounds and disciplines, such as academia, medicine, psychology, theology, philosophy as well as more typical jobs such as working with kids, technology, animals, food, etc. Friends who are willing to give me feedback on both my strengths and my weaknesses.

Also, I'm quite successful, both through grades and feedback, in a challenging field of study that requires deep self-reflection and personal resilience.

Oh, and a few people in an Internet forum think I'm an arsehole.
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Old 11th February 2011, 09:44     #141
chiQ
Frag-muff
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
chiQ, I might pay attention to these claims of "intellectual dishonesty", if it weren't rolled out anytime anyone starts ragin'
I'm not sure if the validity of this idea can be written off because of the mood of people calling you intellectually dishonest, but I don't think so. In any case, I doubt his agreement can rightly be ascribed to rage in cyc's case, and certainly not in mine. I'd never thought about it before last night, but my conclusions about it have been reached upon calm reflection, rather than any sort of rage against you.
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Old 11th February 2011, 11:30     #142
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Oh, and a few people in an Internet forum think I'm an arsehole.
But it's all about the E-CRED!

Shame on you for not being intelligent enough to suggest punishing kids for their parents mistakes. Tisk Tisk.
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Old 11th February 2011, 12:21     #143
tilde
 
and now back to the channel at hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
People actively choosing to get pregnant for the DPB is a bit of a myth. The cost of raising a child pretty much eats up all the money from the DPB. In reality someone struggling to get by on the DPB isn't going to get pregnant as a solution to their money problems.

And regardless of why someone has kids, the kids exist, and they don't deserve to be punished because of this.
firstly, i agree with your second paragraph, but i can't see how any change in a real world would not result in this in some regard.

and to your first paragraph, how do you know this is a bit of a myth? do you work in the area of social welfare? i ask because like any reasonable person, you have made assumptions that people put all the money from the DPB into raising a child. from anectodal evidence in the media this does not seem to be the case. so why wouldn't a irresponsible person get pregnant on purpose to get additional income that is not spent on the child(ren)?
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Old 11th February 2011, 12:58     #144
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Wow, real weak way to try to back up your argument. Link 1, some clown accuses of of a semantic argument. Interesting thing in that - you know, when you add this important thing called context - is that I wasn't the one trying to hide behind the twisting meanings of words as a defense. Link 2, nothing at all whatsoever to do with semantics. Irrelevant link. Lolspeed fails.


Quote:
There's also that people respond to me and my views quite differently in person than on NZG.
So you're only a cock online?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Although, I don't know why you think I should read it in context of what you quoted.

I mean, what would you think in my situation?

For example, I find it easy to obtain and hold down jobs of a technical and interpersonal nature and I get on well with work colleagues.

I have close friends from a variety of backgrounds and disciplines, such as academia, medicine, psychology, theology, philosophy as well as more typical jobs such as working with kids, technology, animals, food, etc. Friends who are willing to give me feedback on both my strengths and my weaknesses.

Also, I'm quite successful, both through grades and feedback, in a challenging field of study that requires deep self-reflection and personal resilience.

Oh, and a few people in an Internet forum think I'm an arsehole.
Wow, bit defensive there bro. Care to tell me some more of your cool story life history in a weak attempt to prove that you're not intellectually dishonest?
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Old 11th February 2011, 14:01     #145
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tilde
firstly, i agree with your second paragraph, but i can't see how any change in a real world would not result in this in some regard.
Welfare is there (as you said) as a safety net when there are changes in the real world. When removing the safety net is the change, then that's a bit different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tilde
and to your first paragraph, how do you know this is a bit of a myth? do you work in the area of social welfare? i ask because like any reasonable person, you have made assumptions that people put all the money from the DPB into raising a child. from anectodal evidence in the media this does not seem to be the case. so why wouldn't a irresponsible person get pregnant on purpose to get additional income that is not spent on the child(ren)?
There are always going to be a small minority of people who abuse the system. Though this is the exception and not the rule, and the total removal of support for a child is a bit much imo.

The response to legislation which provides incentives and removed some barriers to work (family tax credit, reduced cost of childcare etc) shows that these mothers do want to work.

This research has a lot of findings which support this, particularly the part on "Impact on numbers of sole parents receiving benefit"
http://www.ird.govt.nz/aboutir/repor...e-parents.html
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Last edited by fixed_truth : 11th February 2011 at 14:03.
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Old 11th February 2011, 14:56     #146
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
Wow, real weak way to try to back up your argument. Link 1, some clown accuses of of a semantic argument. Interesting thing in that - you know, when you add this important thing called context - is that I wasn't the one trying to hide behind the twisting meanings of words as a defense. Link 2, nothing at all whatsoever to do with semantics. Irrelevant link. Lolspeed fails.
Wow, this is like, meta-semantics or something. Bravo.
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Old 11th February 2011, 15:04     #147
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
Wow, bit defensive there bro. Care to tell me some more of your cool story life history in a weak attempt to prove that you're not intellectually dishonest?
Well, I'm sure I am intellectually dishonest, whatever it is that means to you. And I'm sure you think you can prove it. Because you're nuts.
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Old 11th February 2011, 15:58     #148
chiQ
Frag-muff
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Well, I'm sure I am intellectually dishonest, whatever it is that means to you. And I'm sure you think you can prove it. Because you're nuts.
Is that the technical term for it? I must brush up on the DSM!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_dishonesty
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Old 11th February 2011, 16:15     #149
Lightspeed
 
Question

"If a person is aware of the evidence and agrees with the conclusion it portends, yet advocates a contradictory view, they commit intellectual dishonesty."

That's what you think I do?
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Old 11th February 2011, 16:17     #150
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Wow, this is like, meta-semantics or something. Bravo.
Uhhh... whatever, cock. You got shot down. Just admit it for a change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Well, I'm sure I am intellectually dishonest, whatever it is that means to you. And I'm sure you think you can prove it. Because you're nuts.
I don't need to prove it. Everybody here knows you're intellectually dishonest. Nice try with the whole "you're nuts!" thing. I've never had a bad trip which ended up fucking up by brain.


Anyway, I think we're done here now. You've been reduced to your usual pithy-remarks-devoid-of-any-real-meaning-or-substance which you always offer up when you've got no real reply.
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Old 11th February 2011, 16:18     #151
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
"If a person is aware of the evidence and agrees with the conclusion it portends, yet advocates a contradictory view, they commit intellectual dishonesty."

That's what you think I do?
Yes.
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Old 11th February 2011, 16:23     #152
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
Nice try with the whole "you're nuts!" thing.
You speak in absolutes. You live in a fantasy where "everyone" "knows" I'm intellectually dishonest, where in fact in reality some think I'm intellectually dishonest. You're nuts. Or intellectually dishonest I guess, if you actually know that only some people think I'm intellectually dishonest, but insist that everyone knows it.
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Old 11th February 2011, 16:37     #153
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
No, if you think I'm talking shit, then you just call me a liar. I know I'm not intellectually honest - it's not my style. OTOH, it's pretty much how you construct every argument of yours.
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Old 11th February 2011, 16:43     #154
Lightspeed
 
Well, this is the only place I'm getting that feedback.

And it only seems certain kinds of discussions result in that feedback. AND only in discussions with a handful of people.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 11th February 2011 at 16:46.
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Old 11th February 2011, 16:56     #155
chiQ
Frag-muff
 
I don't think it's the sort of thing people will generally tell you. It's the sort of thing that people just keep to themselves, I think.

I've been intellectually dishonest in a fairly blatant way, and nobody has ever told me so. I know people who are or have been. I've never told them so until you last night. Odds are it's coming to you from here out of exasperation. My reason for coming out and stating my agreement with CCS is I really had hoped you'd take it on board and adjust your approach to discussions with others.

CCS is brutal enough, socially, to come out and say what he thinks, where others wouldn't. I don't think it's malice or churlishness, though I do think you've annoyed him.
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Old 11th February 2011, 17:17     #156
Lightspeed
 
Yeah, that's one possibility. Are you willing to consider the other? Or perhaps something inbetween?
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Old 11th February 2011, 17:25     #157
chiQ
Frag-muff
 
Not with regard to why I think you're intellectually dishonest, no. I'm very clear on the process I went through to form that opinion. With regard to why other people might also consider you intellectually dishonest, certainly.
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Old 11th February 2011, 17:26     #158
Lightspeed
 
One thing I'll admit to is relating to this forum as I would a psychopath. That is I can communicate as I would with anyone, however with no vulnerability, limited empathy. Because psychopaths burn that shit up and so does NZG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiQ
Not with regard to why I think you're intellectually dishonest, no. I'm very clear on the process I went through to form that opinion. With regard to why other people might also consider you intellectually dishonest, certainly.
What I meant was the alternative to me being intellectually dishonest and my friends just won't tell me.

Perhaps I do have friends who would tell me (they fuckin' tell me everything else). Perhaps you're wrong.

Or more likely something inbetween. Perhaps sometimes I am intellectually dishonest, and sometimes I just piss you off.

I can't believe that after a decade on NZG, that all the heated arguments I've been in, all the fucking bullshit between CCS and I, that it all just boils down to me being intellectually dishonest. I just don't think I'm that special.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 11th February 2011 at 17:30.
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Old 11th February 2011, 17:34     #159
chiQ
Frag-muff
 
It would be hard to accept that explanation, because I calmly and rationally consider you to be intellectually dishonest myself, but I naturally can't rule out your explanation, because I don't know your friends or your relationship with them.

Considering your explanation of why your friends haven't told you they think you're intellectually dishonest does raise the spectre of further alternatives, of course, and they're unflattering, but we can stick with the those each of us has suggested if you prefer, just to clinch the dishonesty
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Old 11th February 2011, 17:41     #160
ilk
 
Just for the record, I thought he was intellectually dishonest way before it was trendy.
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