Labour Thus Far.... - Page 7

pxpx · 14th March 2018, 09:13

Kirton on Hosking this morning was extremely contrite and admitted they should have involved the parents.

Ab · 14th March 2018, 09:59

That Kirton has a job today is muppetry.

Ab · 14th March 2018, 10:52

“You know how we said the children hadn’t wanted the police to be involved, um just to clarify, we didn’t actually tell the children they COULD involve the police”

“Oh and when we said we involved professionals, just to clarify, we sat on this for nearly a month hoping it would stay a secret and then we contacted people once we realized it was about to become a story”

Hashtag putting the children first

ZoSo · 14th March 2018, 20:10

Man if they also did drop the Bishop story around this, some of them really are creeps no matter how much they fake it. Dirty politics indeed.
That story timeline never did make sense.

xor · 15th March 2018, 09:11

Interesting that Alison Mau and Lizzie Marvelly are very quiet about this considering they are the ones championing #metoonz. I suppose it doesn't quite fit their narrative when it's the labour party and when two of the victims are men.

Ab · 15th March 2018, 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZoSo

Man if they also did drop the Bishop story around this, some of them really are creeps no matter how much they fake it. Dirty politics indeed.
That story timeline never did make sense.

Man, and I thought I was cynical.

pxpx · 16th March 2018, 10:13

it gets better and better

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=12013540

walk in chiller and a mountain of booze
goon-bag roulette
a weekend-long piss up

Quote:

Lizzie Marvelly.

I'm quite grateful that this vacuous airhead has decided to remain silent. It's a blessing.

fixed_truth · 16th March 2018, 10:40

Amoung all the politicised faux outrage & new found concern for victims we have Leighton Smith who has been suprisingly objective. He correctly points out that while Labour could've handled this better a big part of this is Nzs drinking culture & Young Nats parties are just as wild as are many organized parties around NZ.

crocos · 16th March 2018, 10:43

Aren't most of those examples 18+ though?

fixed_truth · 16th March 2018, 12:48

That's the thing, in a private setting it's quite loose, particularly when people bring their own alcohol. Also this sort of thing happens even when younger people aren't present.

Of course I'm not saying this happens in every instance a group of young people party. But there are issues with our drinking culture and people's ideas around sex & consent.

CCS · 16th March 2018, 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

Amoung all the politicised faux outrage & new found concern for victims

Yeah, I forget sometimes that it's only the Left that truly care about people and when the Right care about people, it's just for political gain.

Labour has certainly done a great job recently of putting their money where their mouth is in looking after victims

Lightspeed · 16th March 2018, 17:16

What should have happened was people should have been able to party without getting sexually assaulted. In what world is sexual assault acceptable?

However sexual assault does happen. So what should happen when sexual assault occurs? Well if the victims of sexual assault are our primary concern, such victims should have known safe places to turn for help, run by trained experts who know how to meet the specific needs of the individual involved as diverse as they are, with the aim of both recovery and accountability.

However this is not available. We have a handful of one-size-fits-all services, victim blaming when these services don't meet the needs of everyone. So how should we treat the victims of sexual assault? How do we avoid compounding tragedy upon tragedy, how do we put their needs before our needs?

There is no answer to this question because, regardless of what's unacceptable, we consistently put our own needs, our own beliefs and values, our own politics before the needs of victims. We get all hyped up about a few individuals, make demands in specific cases, but when it comes to the volume of trauma that exists, the institutions and shared values that perpetuate violence, we blame, we make excuses.

For years I've been pointing out, with evidence, that we're not doing enough to address sexual violence, that government policy is literally making it easier to perpetuate such violence. Mostly what I got back was personal attacks and escalating demands for evidence, if I wasn't completely ignored.

Seriously. Fuck you guys.

crocos · 16th March 2018, 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

...a big part of this is Nzs drinking culture & Young Nats parties are just as wild ...

"Look over there! These guys are just as bad as us, we've just got no proof of it"

Lightspeed · 16th March 2018, 18:01

More like: "It's not us, we're not to blame, it's nothing to do with us. It's them, they're to blame, they need to change. *phew*, I'm glad that's clear, no need to worry about me, no need to think about what I need to do differently."

Ab · 16th March 2018, 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

Amoung all the politicised faux outrage & new found concern for victims we have Leighton Smith who has been suprisingly objective. He correctly points out that while Labour could've handled this better a big part of this is Nzs drinking culture & Young Nats parties are just as wild as are many organized parties around NZ.

exactly, fine people on both sides

CCS · 16th March 2018, 18:39

If the Young Nats did this, I'd be just as appalled. In fact, the YN come off as a bunch of twats any day of the week.

CCS · 16th March 2018, 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Mostly what I got back was personal attacks

And you haven't worked out why that is? It's not because of your position on the subject (though you clearly seem to think it is), it's because the way in which you make the argument is totally dickish.

Quote:

Seriously. Fuck you guys.

So... case in point.

Lightspeed · 16th March 2018, 19:34

Uh-huh. It's cause I'm this dick in a bastion of otherwise fine, upstanding behaviour that compels you to ignore the evidence I've repeatedly produced. That's real believable.

crocos · 16th March 2018, 20:16

To be fair dude, on many subjects you come across as if assuming we're all part of the problem rather than people that COULD be part of the solution. Now I don't KNOW that's what you're thinking, but that's how it looks from what you type.

fixed_truth · 16th March 2018, 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocos

"Look over there! These guys are just as bad as us, we've just got no proof of it"

You missed the point. I included the YNs because I was talking about people politicising an incident as a Labour problem rather than an incident within a wider national problem.

Quote:

The stories that have emerged of what occurred at the Young Labour camp are absolutely unacceptable. But the reality, sadly, is that this problem is happening all around us, all of the time. It's not isolated to Young Labour. We have a culture of sexual violence in this country that we need to address.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...-the-spotlight

crocos · 16th March 2018, 22:03

Yeah, it was more the way you quoted/interpreted Leighton Smith's comment came across as him trying to set a smoke-screen; I wasn't saying that was what you were trying to do.

FWIW I completely agree that our violent, abusive "culture" is unacceptable; in desperate need of change. But just like the US example of "if you take the guns away there will still be guns", there will still be less guns and a reduction in gun violence; likewise we don't need to deal with ALL violence and abuse all at once - that's too big a job: The laws are already there, we now need to start where we can, and unfortunately for Labour, the YL controversy has basically stood out as a place to start. Saying the Young Nats and others have the same issues just means that there's another place to look too, but we shouldn't let it distract from this revolting series of events because we NEED to start somewhere. Why not there?

fixed_truth · 16th March 2018, 23:57

Yeah hopefully at the very least this will be a wake up call for a lot of organisations in that they be more responsible in creating safer environments and coming up with better procedures for dealing with this kind of thing.

Ab · 17th March 2018, 01:01

CCS · 19th March 2018, 18:10

Comedy gold! I think there was a Len Brown version of that too.

CCS · 19th March 2018, 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Uh-huh. It's cause I'm this dick in a bastion of otherwise fine, upstanding behaviour that compels you to ignore the evidence I've repeatedly produced. That's real believable.

I've never suggested that the behaviour everyone, bar you, is fine and upstanding. That's your own intellectual dishonesty there. The point is, whenever you bring up your pet hobby horse, you're a total dick in the way you go about it. No wonder nobody really wants to engage you.

I'm not sure what evidence it is that you think I've ignored. Are you sure it's the evidence I'm ignoring and not you?

pxpx · 20th March 2018, 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab

exactly, fine people on both sides

I lolled irl.

Lightspeed · 20th March 2018, 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCS

Are you sure it's the evidence I'm ignoring and not you?

Well you're quoting me, so...

If anything good comes out of all of this, it won't be because of people all of a sudden being concerned about sexual assault in NZ, when previously excuses were fine.

CCS · 20th March 2018, 16:48

And that's why people don't take you seriously.

Lightspeed · 20th March 2018, 17:45

I don't want people to take me seriously, people can take me or leave me, that's their business. It'd be nice if people gave a damn about sexual assault and trauma, but I can't change people.

I'm still going to get mad when people make out like they give a damn all of a sudden.

pxpx · 27th March 2018, 11:15

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=12020873

Carol Hirschfeld is leaving Radio NZ, effective immediately, after saga over her meeting with Broadcasting Minister Clare Curran.

ZoSo · 27th March 2018, 12:01

Bring on rnz+, for full conformity.

Ab · 27th March 2018, 13:49

Clare Curran, the gift that keeps on giving, year after year

CCS · 27th March 2018, 14:56

Radio New Zealand chairman Richard Griffin says Carol Hirschfeld stuck to meeting claim for four months

Quote:

Hirschfeld had initially and repeatedly claimed to Radio NZ bosses that she bumped into Curran at a Wellington cafe by chance.

She has resigned today, effective immediately, after admitting the meeting was arranged.

Griffin said today that Hirschfeld was not authorised to meet the minister.

He says the issue was compounded by Hirschfeld maintaining an incorrect version of events for almost four months.

In other words, Hirschfeld lied to her boss for 4 months. The boss then gave incorrect information to a parliamentary select committee based on what he had been told by Hirschfeld. No wonder she got the arse card.

It would seem also that Curran lied to Parliament. So much for Jacinda's transparent government.

CCS · 27th March 2018, 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab

Clare Curran, the gift that keeps on giving, year after year

I've been saying for years that Curran is a moron. Now that she's a minister we get to see that in action.

Ab · 27th March 2018, 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCS

It would seem also that Curran lied to Parliament. So much for Jacinda's transparent government.

Clare Curran, Associate Minister of State Services (Open Government)

CCS · 27th March 2018, 15:33

Lol!!

Ab · 27th March 2018, 16:02

Looks like the new Government isn't being very "transparent" on how it attempts to influence people:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=12020482

Quote:

National MP Mark Mitchell has claimed a NZ First MP told him to pull out of a regional development project in Mahurangi and stop questioning Regional Development Minister Shane Jones if he wanted funding for the project.

Mitchell, the MP for Rodney claimed that over the weekend NZ First MP Jenny Marcroft told him the Mahurangi River Restoration Project would be considered for funding from Jones' Provincial Growth Fund "but for that to happen I would have to end my involvement with it as a local MP".

He said Marcroft told him she was speaking on behalf of a minister, but would not say who.

"Ms Marcroft told me this was because the Government was unhappy with me revealing the illegitimate use of Defence Force aircraft by Defence Minister Ron Mark."

"She also said if I ended my involvement and the money was granted, that they did not want National's Regional Economic Development spokesperson Paul Goldsmith asking Shane Jones questions about it in Parliament."

He said it was "rotten politics" and an attempt to use the Fund to silence political opponents.

Ab · 28th March 2018, 17:15

https://twitter.com/LewSOS/status/978407387030630401

Quote:

PM is not firing her Minister for Open Government for lying to Parliament about a meeting with the Head of News of the state broadcaster.

159 days. Stop your clocks, that's how long it takes a new, positive, idealistic government to turn into any other government. What a shame.

pxpx · 29th March 2018, 09:23

Let's do this!

Lightspeed · 29th March 2018, 15:57

You guys are hurting my feelings with your political discourse. Don't you want me to take you seriously? Won't you think of me when sharing your response to the politics of the day?

16th March 2018, 18:39	#256
CCS Stunt Pants	If the Young Nats did this, I'd be just as appalled. In fact, the YN come off as a bunch of twats any day of the week. __________________ I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner?

19th March 2018, 18:10	#264
CCS Stunt Pants	Comedy gold! I think there was a Len Brown version of that too. __________________ I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner?

20th March 2018, 16:48	#268
CCS Stunt Pants	And that's why people don't take you seriously. __________________ I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner?

27th March 2018, 15:33	#276
CCS Stunt Pants	Lol!! __________________ I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner?

14th March 2018, 09:13	#241
pxpx	Kirton on Hosking this morning was extremely contrite and admitted they should have involved the parents.

14th March 2018, 09:59	#242
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	That Kirton has a job today is muppetry.

14th March 2018, 10:52	#243
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	“You know how we said the children hadn’t wanted the police to be involved, um just to clarify, we didn’t actually tell the children they COULD involve the police” “Oh and when we said we involved professionals, just to clarify, we sat on this for nearly a month hoping it would stay a secret and then we contacted people once we realized it was about to become a story” Hashtag putting the children first

14th March 2018, 20:10	#244
ZoSo	Man if they also did drop the Bishop story around this, some of them really are creeps no matter how much they fake it. Dirty politics indeed. That story timeline never did make sense.

15th March 2018, 09:11	#245
xor	Interesting that Alison Mau and Lizzie Marvelly are very quiet about this considering they are the ones championing #metoonz. I suppose it doesn't quite fit their narrative when it's the labour party and when two of the victims are men.

16th March 2018, 10:40	#248
fixed_truth	Amoung all the politicised faux outrage & new found concern for victims we have Leighton Smith who has been suprisingly objective. He correctly points out that while Labour could've handled this better a big part of this is Nzs drinking culture & Young Nats parties are just as wild as are many organized parties around NZ. __________________ Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong.

16th March 2018, 10:43	#249
crocos	Aren't most of those examples 18+ though? __________________ Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ ☼ N وكل يوم كنت تعيش في العبودية

16th March 2018, 12:48	#250
fixed_truth	That's the thing, in a private setting it's quite loose, particularly when people bring their own alcohol. Also this sort of thing happens even when younger people aren't present. Of course I'm not saying this happens in every instance a group of young people party. But there are issues with our drinking culture and people's ideas around sex & consent. __________________ Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong.

16th March 2018, 17:16	#252
Lightspeed	What should have happened was people should have been able to party without getting sexually assaulted. In what world is sexual assault acceptable? However sexual assault does happen. So what should happen when sexual assault occurs? Well if the victims of sexual assault are our primary concern, such victims should have known safe places to turn for help, run by trained experts who know how to meet the specific needs of the individual involved as diverse as they are, with the aim of both recovery and accountability. However this is not available. We have a handful of one-size-fits-all services, victim blaming when these services don't meet the needs of everyone. So how should we treat the victims of sexual assault? How do we avoid compounding tragedy upon tragedy, how do we put their needs before our needs? There is no answer to this question because, regardless of what's unacceptable, we consistently put our own needs, our own beliefs and values, our own politics before the needs of victims. We get all hyped up about a few individuals, make demands in specific cases, but when it comes to the volume of trauma that exists, the institutions and shared values that perpetuate violence, we blame, we make excuses. For years I've been pointing out, with evidence, that we're not doing enough to address sexual violence, that government policy is literally making it easier to perpetuate such violence. Mostly what I got back was personal attacks and escalating demands for evidence, if I wasn't completely ignored. Seriously. Fuck you guys. __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

16th March 2018, 18:01	#254
Lightspeed	More like: "It's not us, we're not to blame, it's nothing to do with us. It's them, they're to blame, they need to change. phew, I'm glad that's clear, no need to worry about me, no need to think about what I need to do differently." __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

16th March 2018, 19:34	#258
Lightspeed	Uh-huh. It's cause I'm this dick in a bastion of otherwise fine, upstanding behaviour that compels you to ignore the evidence I've repeatedly produced. That's real believable. __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

16th March 2018, 20:16	#259
crocos	To be fair dude, on many subjects you come across as if assuming we're all part of the problem rather than people that COULD be part of the solution. Now I don't KNOW that's what you're thinking, but that's how it looks from what you type. __________________ Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ ☼ N وكل يوم كنت تعيش في العبودية

16th March 2018, 22:03	#261
crocos	Yeah, it was more the way you quoted/interpreted Leighton Smith's comment came across as him trying to set a smoke-screen; I wasn't saying that was what you were trying to do. FWIW I completely agree that our violent, abusive "culture" is unacceptable; in desperate need of change. But just like the US example of "if you take the guns away there will still be guns", there will still be less guns and a reduction in gun violence; likewise we don't need to deal with ALL violence and abuse all at once - that's too big a job: The laws are already there, we now need to start where we can, and unfortunately for Labour, the YL controversy has basically stood out as a place to start. Saying the Young Nats and others have the same issues just means that there's another place to look too, but we shouldn't let it distract from this revolting series of events because we NEED to start somewhere. Why not there? __________________ Ξ √ Ω L U T ↑ ☼ N وكل يوم كنت تعيش في العبودية Last edited by crocos : 16th March 2018 at 22:05.

16th March 2018, 23:57	#262
fixed_truth	Yeah hopefully at the very least this will be a wake up call for a lot of organisations in that they be more responsible in creating safer environments and coming up with better procedures for dealing with this kind of thing. __________________ Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong.

20th March 2018, 17:45	#269
Lightspeed	I don't want people to take me seriously, people can take me or leave me, that's their business. It'd be nice if people gave a damn about sexual assault and trauma, but I can't change people. I'm still going to get mad when people make out like they give a damn all of a sudden. __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

27th March 2018, 11:15	#270
pxpx	smoke -> fire http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=12020873 Carol Hirschfeld is leaving Radio NZ, effective immediately, after saga over her meeting with Broadcasting Minister Clare Curran.

27th March 2018, 12:01	#271
ZoSo	Bring on rnz+, for full conformity.

27th March 2018, 13:49	#272
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	Clare Curran, the gift that keeps on giving, year after year

29th March 2018, 15:57	#280
Lightspeed	You guys are hurting my feelings with your political discourse. Don't you want me to take you seriously? Won't you think of me when sharing your response to the politics of the day? __________________ Stay shook. No sook.