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Old 3rd April 2017, 19:08     #2121
Lightspeed
 
facepalm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
If Stuff is in a race to the bottom with NZH, it done lost. NZH is somewhere in the sub-basement below bottom.

NZH on any given day is now:

"How this Gen Y couple own 3 houses"
"You won't believe what this woman found in her dinner"
"Recreate some Kardashian's new look"
"All Blacks star's greatest regrets (number three will surprise you)"
Literally:
From nothing to two homes, one in Auckland, in two years
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Old 5th April 2017, 17:38     #2122
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Hold my beer, says Stuff's corporate owner:

Quote:
Sydney Morning Herald and Age to employ fewer journalists and narrow coverage

Fairfax tells staff it will reduce editorial budget by $30m annually and focus on popular stories that attract more readers

https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...ge?CMP=soc_568
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Old 5th April 2017, 22:35     #2123
Redneck
 
Oblig John Oliver - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq2_wSsDwkQ
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Old 7th April 2017, 17:01     #2124
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Someone brighter than myself pointed this out to me this morning and it's so fucking obvious I almost punched myself in the face:

The collapse of print media isn't because journalism started being shit, it's because the Internet destroyed most of the print CLASSIFIEDS industry, and that's what used to pay for good journalism.

The real estate pages are the only classifieds left in the Herald. The Herald running "you too can buy a house" as every second story isn't them pumping up the housing bubble; it's the Herald looking after the only advertising clients it has left.
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Old 7th April 2017, 17:34     #2125
[Malks] Pixie
 
Whereas it's this sort of shit that I've been teaching my (now ex) students for the last 3 years. It's exactly these sorts of correlations that academics have been talking about for the last 15 years. It's the same thing that happened with the introduction of television (and radio before that). These aren't revelations, you don't have to be smart to work it out - this is basic fucking critical thinking.
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Old 7th April 2017, 18:08     #2126
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
The bit about classified revenues was of course already known to me; but I hadn't put 2 and 2 together on the Herald's current editorial policy. SO NOW I'M NOT FEELING LIKE MR SMART GUY AND I DON'T LIKE IT AND I WOULD APPRECIATE YOU NOT POKING ME
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Old 7th April 2017, 18:43     #2127
[Malks] Pixie
 
If I seem prickly it's because I consider most people to be smarter than me (my train-wreck of a life is pretty good evidence of this) - yet it terrifies me that stuff like this escapes people on a regular basis. And it isn't just the Herald and real estate, these are the mechanics that all commercial media operate in relation to.

This is pretty much the only place where I can poke people a bit and feel I can get away with - SO I'D APPRECIATE YOU NOT BEING A SNOWFLAKE ABOUT ME ELBOWING YOU IN THE RIBS ABOUT THIS SHIT
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Old 7th April 2017, 19:56     #2128
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Not just classifieds, but advertising in general. Same thing has happened with TV. Advertising revenue is down because The Intarnet is the hip place to advertise. With less money to spend, the programming quality goes down. Fewer people watch the increasingly shittier programmes and with fewer people to see the ads, the stronger the case for the advertisers to concentrate on online.

TVNZs CEO says FTA television is not sustainable long term. He's not entirely wrong, but are TVNZs digital offerings good enough to pick up where FTA leaves off? Uhm...
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Old 7th April 2017, 20:20     #2129
[Malks] Pixie
 
Could not agree more CCS.
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Old 7th April 2017, 22:37     #2130
Lightspeed
 
I think there could be an upside to print and broadcast media devolving to non-commercial applications only.

I think the what we're seeing at the moment is media companies trying their best to make the last of the money from broadcast advertising. Which has become even more grotesque and horrible than advertising normally is.

I'm really hoping open-source domestic AI kills advertising altogether. But that's probably a ways off.
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Old 8th April 2017, 16:14     #2131
[Malks] Pixie
 
Yeah sorry dude I don't think any of that is going to happen. NGO's don't have the resources to operate broadcast platforms and I don't think that most governments are going to be interested either.

Advertising is here to stay (unless there is some absolutely world shattering calamity that totally changes the way we view the world) and no techno-utopic buzz-word fest is going to do anything other that ramp it up to the nth degree.
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Old 8th April 2017, 17:04     #2132
Lightspeed
 
We're fucked if we keep allowing ourselves to be dominated by an industry where the business model is to compel people to make irrational decisions in favour of its clients.

I would be completely surprised if AI isn't​ developed to aid personal descion making. *Rational* descion making, with much more access to unbiased information, beyond an individual's capacity. AI like Google already does this to a point, but it's still largely impersonal, and in favour of its clients.
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Old 8th April 2017, 18:09     #2133
[Malks] Pixie
 
Who is going to program those AI? Google. Where does most of Googles money come from? Advertising.

Any AI Google, or any other tech company develops is going to serve it's customers - the advertising industry. If it's not Google then it will be some other company - who need funding, no one will fund a product (which is how AI will be marketed) that doesn't support the current model.

Open source is nice in theory, but in practice it's little to no competition for the major players in the tech industry.

Rational decisions operate in relation to a frame work of thought - if that frame work of thought is defined by the current industries (as it will be) then you work out what sort of "decisions" it will promote.

Anyway this is all techno-utopian BS, as I said, the only way out of this cycle is collapse.
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Last edited by [Malks] Pixie : 8th April 2017 at 18:10.
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Old 8th April 2017, 18:47     #2134
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
I'm really fucking drunk right now so don't expect highlevel discourse but you fucks should read this

https://markmanson.net/everything-is-fucked
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Old 8th April 2017, 18:59     #2135
Lightspeed
 
This will be a good discussion to dig up in 5-10 years time.

I think your understanding of AI is overly grandiose​. Simple AI could do the job. Intense connectivity along with constant observation of the user may be enough. Something that can run on a phone. Mobile VR tech will ensure sufficient resources.

There are surely examples of open source tech supported by enthusiasts. Are we as a society going to continue to become more educated and sophisticated? Or are we expecting to be shut down, kept stupid?

I would expect a large boom in technology, given the generations coming up completely immersed in tech, far more than any of us.

Given the clear problems around information bubbles and increasingly inadequate media coverage, I expect to see some solutions emerging.
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Old 8th April 2017, 21:32     #2136
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
I'm really fucking drunk right now so don't expect highlevel discourse but you fucks should read this

https://markmanson.net/everything-is-fucked
I think Bernays deserves more credit for everything being fucked IMO. He pretty much perfected the art of exploiting our feelings.
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Old 8th April 2017, 21:53     #2137
[Malks] Pixie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
This will be a good discussion to dig up in 5-10 years time.
Yeah it probably will be. I'm going to work this backwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Given the clear problems around information bubbles and increasingly inadequate media coverage, I expect to see some solutions emerging.
Right. Be specific - what is the problem with "information bubbles"? Aren't they a reflection of socio-political groupings along economic / ethnic / ideological / religious lines? These groups all have different world views and seek different sources of information AND accept different types of evidence. This isn't new.

The funny thing is the idea of broadcasting kinda of set a counter for that - in that it is a one-to-many system. Everyone gets the same content - within technical reason. This is why have debates about "the media". Who is being served by it, who can exert control over it, how does it effect and affect us?

We don't have increasingly inadequate media coverage, we have a saturation of media coverage, from multiple different view point and interpretations. This has literally developed to cater for the previously mentioned different social (etc.) groupings because there is money in doing so. Lots of money it turns out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
I would expect a large boom in technology, given the generations coming up completely immersed in tech, far more than any of us.
This is purely subjective - it assigns a particular complexity to technology which is new without accounting for the fact the previous technologies in the same "tree" (to use a game parallel) were just as complex to the population they were introduced to. Do you think farmers in 19th century were less immersed in the technologies they used to survive and make a living?

We'll be lucky if we get one revolutionary technology in the next 20 years - let alone a boom of them. I mean shit that had the same impact as the printing press, powered flight, gunpowder, antibiotics or language. The last one we had was the computer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
There are surely examples of open source tech supported by enthusiasts. Are we as a society going to continue to become more educated and sophisticated? Or are we expecting to be shut down, kept stupid?
This presumes that, as a society, we've been either been stagnant in our education levels or that they are actually declining. Literally all evidence points in the opposite direction. You are talking about politics here, no about technology or even about media.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
I think your understanding of AI is overly grandiose​. Simple AI could do the job.
Do what job?

This is why I described it as techno-utopian, because you're literally just saying "this technology will fix everything around this problem" and absolutely no details on how or why.
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Old 8th April 2017, 22:11     #2138
Lightspeed
 
I'll reply to that in a couple of days when I have more head-space available to be at least somewhat coherent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
I think Bernays deserves more credit for everything being fucked IMO. He pretty much perfected the art of exploiting our feelings.
I stand corrected.

Bernays was wrong, btw. We're all ultimately rational, there is no way a species can be successful if its decisions are irrational.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 8th April 2017 at 22:13.
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Old 8th April 2017, 22:25     #2139
[Malks] Pixie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
I'm really fucking drunk right now so don't expect highlevel discourse but you fucks should read this

https://markmanson.net/everything-is-fucked
I'm drunk too, someone gave me rum. That's a great piece.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [Malks] Pixie
...and affect us?
That link should actually go here.

LS - excuse my grumpy tone, extended family's cat got put down today / crap week.
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Old 9th April 2017, 22:29     #2140
fixed_truth
 
Meet the 21-year-old earning $1000 per week dating sugar daddies
Quote:
"I'm trying to crack into the property market," Olivia told Daily Mail Australia.

"The dream for any young person is to own a home. I would love to own a house or an apartment. Realistically, the goal wasn't so achievable before."

"But now, it's something reasonable, I can see myself owning a property 5-10 years from now. It's amazing for me."
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Old 10th April 2017, 06:21     #2141
StN
I have detailed files
 
Rince...?
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Old 10th April 2017, 09:46     #2142
Juju
get to da choppa
 
I dunno...$250 - $1k per week isn't very much. Barely scraping $52k per annum.


Anyway - in today's NZHerald property adverteroial:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=11835327

"From $30k to $1 million! Using daddy's $240k 'equity gift'"


*sigh*
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Old 11th April 2017, 08:24     #2143
Jodi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Bernays was wrong, btw. We're all ultimately rational, there is no way a species can be successful if its decisions are irrational.
Assuming you're sincere, then I'm sure there are a few evolutionary biologists that would like to talk to you.
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Old 11th April 2017, 10:28     #2144
Lightspeed
 
Do you genuinely know any evolutionary biologists?

I do appreciate it's easy to create a frame where actions can be viewed as irrational - we can see such actions in our own lives. But surely if the universe is coherent and rational then that which exists within it is also so, at least within the local region.
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Old 11th April 2017, 11:41     #2145
[Malks] Pixie
 
Perhaps being specific about what type of rationality you are talking about would clear up some of the confusion LS (or perhaps it'll make it worse).

Also whether or not Jodi personally knows any evolutionary biologists is irrelevant - they're right that that field (like many others) use a specific definition of rationality.
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Old 11th April 2017, 11:46     #2146
Juju
get to da choppa
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Someone brighter than myself pointed this out to me this morning and it's so fucking obvious I almost punched myself in the face:

The collapse of print media isn't because journalism started being shit, it's because the Internet destroyed most of the print CLASSIFIEDS industry, and that's what used to pay for good journalism.

The real estate pages are the only classifieds left in the Herald. The Herald running "you too can buy a house" as every second story isn't them pumping up the housing bubble; it's the Herald looking after the only advertising clients it has left.

Eeeeh I dunno... the property classifieds wouldn't be much on the NZH bottom line.

I think one would have to look at the back handed payments Ronovationz is giving Anne Gibson to advertise their services. 8 articles that include their name in them - 5 in the past 2 months...all by Mrs Gibson.
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Old 11th April 2017, 12:06     #2147
[Malks] Pixie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juju
Eeeeh I dunno... the property classifieds wouldn't be much on the NZH bottom line.
I don't have the citation handy but as of last year print advertising (including classifieds) earned more for NZH than internet advertising (by quite a large amount).
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Old 11th April 2017, 12:14     #2148
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Malks] Pixie
Perhaps being specific about what type of rationality you are talking about would clear up some of the confusion LS (or perhaps it'll make it worse).
I'm probably using a poorly defined version of "rational". I'm coming from an understanding of human behaviour. For instance, it might be irrational for a person to scream obscenities at a police officer if they want to be left alone. However from the perspective of their evolutionary and developmental background, we might understand how that response is coherent and rational considering these things.

Quote:
Also whether or not Jodi personally knows any evolutionary biologists is irrelevant - they're right that that field (like many others) use a specific definition of rationality.
Of course it matters. It's easy to read some article on Vice and think you're got an esoteric discipline sussed out, when really you've got a distorted view that only makes sense in a very specific context.

As you say, specific concepts apply to specific disciplines... which is why I find it so frustrating when people insist dictionary definition is the only way words can be defined.
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Old 11th April 2017, 12:39     #2149
[Malks] Pixie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
I'm probably using a poorly defined version of "rational". I'm coming from an understanding of human behaviour. For instance, it might be irrational for a person to scream obscenities at a police officer if they want to be left alone.
So it sounds like a form of psychological rationality. The problem is that someone screaming at a police officer because they want to be left alone isn't always going to be irrational. If this behaviour has worked for the individual (or they have observed this behaviour working for others) then as a response it could be quite rational. Common usage rationality is simply the link between one's beliefs and actions - rationality ALWAYS works within a framework of understanding (be it political / religious / economic / etc etc).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
As you say, specific concepts apply to specific disciplines...
Well actually I said that different disciplines define the same concept in different ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
...which is why I find it so frustrating when people insist dictionary definition is the only way words can be defined.
At least a dictionary definition is better than PROVIDING NO DEFINITION OR CONTEXT AT ALL.

Up your game bro.
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Old 11th April 2017, 12:51     #2150
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
The problem is that someone screaming at a police officer because they want to be left alone isn't always going to be irrational.
It depends. From the internal perspective of the person yelling, it may be seem rational - which is my point about evolutionary and developmental background. But from the outside, you'd be hoping for a compassionate, insightful police response which doesn't seem wise.

I don't think it's controversial to say that people tend to talk about other people being rational or irrational from the perspective of their own beliefs, not what they understand the beliefs of others to be.

Quote:
Well actually I said that different disciplines define the same concept in different ways.
I don't want to tumble down a semantic rabbit hole, but a concept defined differently is a different concept the way I see it.

Quote:
At least a dictionary definition is better than PROVIDING NO DEFINITION OR CONTEXT AT ALL.

Up your game bro.
I'm assuming the context is apparent, and if not I'm assuming people have the capacity to inquire. If the intent is the be hostile and combative, I don't give a fuck. I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm trying to share my perspective and see what response I get.
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Old 11th April 2017, 14:07     #2151
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Malks] Pixie
Right. Be specific - what is the problem with "information bubbles"? Aren't they a reflection of socio-political groupings along economic / ethnic / ideological / religious lines? These groups all have different world views and seek different sources of information AND accept different types of evidence. This isn't new.
Information bubbles tend to reinforce what one already knows, meaning what one knows says as much about oneself as the world. This impedes one's ability to make effective decisions - effective at getting what the person wants, that is unless the person wants to reinforce what they already know. Ultimately this is not sustainable as change is ever escalating, entropy being what it is.

Quote:
The funny thing is the idea of broadcasting kinda of set a counter for that - in that it is a one-to-many system. Everyone gets the same content - within technical reason. This is why have debates about "the media". Who is being served by it, who can exert control over it, how does it effect and affect us?
We all get the same information, but we all live in specific contexts. What we know gets defined by power systems and memes, not by what's most useful to each specific individual.

Quote:
We don't have increasingly inadequate media coverage, we have a saturation of media coverage, from multiple different view point and interpretations. This has literally developed to cater for the previously mentioned different social (etc.) groupings because there is money in doing so. Lots of money it turns out.
This is inadequate. People don't have sufficient capacity to parse through this saturation to access what is specifically useful to them. We're compelled by what's most obvious, what matters to the most people (or the people with the most power), what's most easily gratifying. Memes.

Quote:
This is purely subjective - it assigns a particular complexity to technology which is new without accounting for the fact the previous technologies in the same "tree" (to use a game parallel) were just as complex to the population they were introduced to. Do you think farmers in 19th century were less immersed in the technologies they used to survive and make a living?

We'll be lucky if we get one revolutionary technology in the next 20 years - let alone a boom of them. I mean shit that had the same impact as the printing press, powered flight, gunpowder, antibiotics or language. The last one we had was the computer.

This presumes that, as a society, we've been either been stagnant in our education levels or that they are actually declining. Literally all evidence points in the opposite direction. You are talking about politics here, no about technology or even about media.
I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. What I'm thinking of is for example kids in rural Texas who previously would have had to rely on their parents and the books their local library stocked, now able to access YouTube channels like CrashCourse. A great volume of people who previously would have only had access to what was important to their local community now have much broader access to information. They're basically busting out of their information bubble. A new one forms of course, but much broader. And this is a self-sustaining feedback loop.

Quote:
Do what job?
Help us escape our information bubbles, provide the most effective information for deciding how to achieve what we each individually want, within the specific context we each live in.

Quote:
This is why I described it as techno-utopian, because you're literally just saying "this technology will fix everything around this problem" and absolutely no details on how or why.
I was hoping you would be interested enough to wonder and ask.

There are a number of technologies emerging that I believe will allow us to be freed to do the thing that only we do that can't be replaced by technology: deciding what we want. Here's what I'm thinking about, the list isn't complete:
  • AI similar to that of driverless cars - very quickly assessing and responding to what is happening right now.
  • Observational tech. Similar to what we already have on our phones, but much more than how many steps you've taken, or how much you moved in your sleep. I'm thinking deep observation such as breathing, blood biochemistry, emotional state, who you talk to, where you spend your time, etc., etc, over a long period so patterns specific to the individual are known.
  • Deep knowledge AI like IBM Watson, applied to as many sets of information as possible. Applied to both the world and the individual.
  • Global computing networks like Ethereum.
Exactly how these technologies come together is to be seen, but I'm sure there is right now the desire to make consumer and political decisions free of the haze of advertising and PR. At least I have that desire. And this will drive smart people to find ways to use technology to clear this haze.

Quote:
LS - excuse my grumpy tone, extended family's cat got put down today / crap week.
I'm sorry to hear that.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 11th April 2017 at 14:08.
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Old 20th April 2017, 18:11     #2152
CCS
Stunt Pants
 


Wow, Herald so keen to get the news out that they didn't finish the headline!

Also, Mr Stuart Hintz, those aren't fucking machine guns the police are carrying. You ignorant moron. DIAF.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 10:14     #2153
StN
I have detailed files
 
Ricky McQ - statue bro?
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Old 22nd April 2017, 13:19     #2154
Cyberbob
 
Indeed! The wife's done a few articles on Stuff Nation before regarding housing a few years ago when we first moved back to NZ.

Now that Herald/Stuff seem to be obsessed with stories about housing etc, they looked us up for a short piece.

There's a few inaccurate pieces (I didn't give them my income, and its above the bracket they mentioned), not sure if it's just sloppy notes from the reporter or an attempt to "averagize us" a bit more.

The point still gets across, but it does tend to be a bit "woe is me" for my tastes.
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Last edited by Cyberbob : 22nd April 2017 at 13:24.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 13:42     #2155
Fx.
 
its stuff.co.nz, did you expect them to start accurately and objectively reporting this week?
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Old 22nd April 2017, 15:39     #2156
Gerbs
 
DAMNIT I knew that name was familiar.

Good shit.
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Old 24th April 2017, 08:20     #2157
EvilLumpy
 
What Gerbs said.

Seeing that article took me out of retirement and back here.

Thanks Stuff! (via Reddit)

Wow, the place looks hasn't changed much since last time I was lurking...
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Old 25th April 2017, 21:11     #2158
CCS
Stunt Pants
 


Stop it.
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Old 4th May 2017, 15:08     #2159
MadMax
Stuff
 
Pose nude on a sensitive site
...
Profit
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Old 10th May 2017, 09:24     #2160
Cyberbob
 
Where the shit did "Technology" just go?

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