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Old 5th August 2020, 21:48     #961
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
What seat is he running for again?
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Old 5th August 2020, 22:39     #962
Know me.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Immigration is useful tool that has limits and consequences. Likewise with debt and currency manipulation.

Both add to the economy when done well, both are to the detriment of the economy when done poorly.

We've had a long glut of immigration to make up for the lack of borrowing for the sake of political expediency.
It adds to the economy when spent on infrastructure and increasing productivity. The majority of the money is going into a big hole in the ground. We are going to be burdened with a massive debt without any benefit long term.
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Old 5th August 2020, 22:42     #963
Lightspeed
 
In this case the spending is going towards preventing loss, which will have significant long term benefits.
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Old 6th August 2020, 00:20     #964
Nothing
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
What seat is he running for again?
Oh right, I forgot that John Key has nothing to do with the National party. Duh.
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Old 6th August 2020, 03:10     #965
Know me.
 
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/ind...len-clark-says

Helen Clark looks like she is making a comeback too. Except she is standing for National this time around.

Last edited by Know me. : 6th August 2020 at 03:11.
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Old 6th August 2020, 10:04     #966
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing
Oh right, I forgot that John Key has nothing to do with the National party. Duh.
Well I'm sure he's a member, just like any private citizen can be. But he doesn't speak for the organisation, any more than Helen Clark speaks for Labour.
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Old 6th August 2020, 13:40     #967
Nothing
 
I suspect it's probably the case that Key has closer ties to National than Clark does to labour. She's had a lot longer to move on than Key has.
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Old 6th August 2020, 17:15     #968
Know me.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
In this case the spending is going towards preventing loss, which will have significant long term benefits.
True, but the long term benefit is that the economy won't contract as much as without the stimulus. The "real" economy is contracting and the stimulus can't go on forever.
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Old 6th August 2020, 17:34     #969
Lightspeed
 
Can immigration go on forever? That's the only reason our economy wasn't previously contracting. Except, in reality it was, because an economy doesn't just send people to work. It fucking houses them too. Feeds them, cares for them when sick. Which our economy is becoming less and less effective at, right?

We need innovation, which has long been absent.
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Old 6th August 2020, 17:36     #970
Lightspeed
 
Because innovation requires an educated, energised workforce. Can you imagine having appealing for votes from educated people? Fuck all that noise, amirite?

Let's just make it harder for people to deal with their trauma. They'll be so busy with their fucked up kids, they probably won't even vote! Lucky.

People complain? Our supporters will team up, call 'em deluded.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 6th August 2020 at 17:38.
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Old 6th August 2020, 18:12     #971
Nothing
 
If we can keep our borders tight, there's a real opportunity for us to build local manufacturing, expertise, and exports. Production overseas is being hit pretty hard by the virus, we won't be hit by that as much. Sure, our tourism industry is taking it in the ass, but if we find other useful things to do in our economy that doesn't have to be the end of the world. Moreover, if we don't have the virus here, then that makes us a pretty attractive destination for all sorts of people it would be good to have here.
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Old 6th August 2020, 19:22     #972
Know me.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Can immigration go on forever? That's the only reason our economy wasn't previously contracting. Except, in reality it was, because an economy doesn't just send people to work. It fucking houses them too. Feeds them, cares for them when sick. Which our economy is becoming less and less effective at, right?

We need innovation, which has long been absent.
It can go on for decades, perhaps hundreds of years. United States of America.

No, the economy REALLY is contracting right now. That's with the stimulus. God knows what tools future governments will have to implement to pay back the debt.

https://www.stats.govt.nz/indicators...ic-product-gdp

Did you read the last Labour budget? Fuck all for innovation.
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Old 6th August 2020, 19:28     #973
Know me.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing
If we can keep our borders tight, there's a real opportunity for us to build local manufacturing, expertise, and exports. Production overseas is being hit pretty hard by the virus, we won't be hit by that as much. Sure, our tourism industry is taking it in the ass, but if we find other useful things to do in our economy that doesn't have to be the end of the world. Moreover, if we don't have the virus here, then that makes us a pretty attractive destination for all sorts of people it would be good to have here.
Nice summary of what John Key was saying.
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Old 6th August 2020, 21:05     #974
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Know me.
It can go on for decades, perhaps hundreds of years. United States of America.

No, the economy REALLY is contracting right now. That's with the stimulus. God knows what tools future governments will have to implement to pay back the debt.

https://www.stats.govt.nz/indicators...ic-product-gdp

Did you read the last Labour budget? Fuck all for innovation.
If we're pointing to US immigration we're surely also pointing to US debt...

The tools for paying back tomorrows debt will be the same as paying back today's: a productive society. Or is that what's in question? We're at the end of our run, kiwis are about to turn all lazy and shit?

I don't expect Labour to innovate, I expect it will be us. People aren't going to sit around all ho-hum, well got no job, nothing to do about it. Many will. The whole domestic violence thing hasn't disappeared, for many losing their job will be just one more message that the world is bullshit. But more will put themselves out there, have a go at something.

The government's job is to keep the country running. The "innovations" we see from politicians are the kind that gets/keeps them in power.
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Old 6th August 2020, 23:03     #975
Nothing
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Know me.
Nice summary of what John Key was saying.
Really? Because I got the distinct impression that he was saying we needed to open the border up more?
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Old 7th August 2020, 06:44     #976
StN
I have detailed files
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing
If we can keep our borders tight, there's a real opportunity for us to build local manufacturing, expertise, and exports. Production overseas is being hit pretty hard by the virus, we won't be hit by that as much. Sure, our tourism industry is taking it in the ass, but if we find other useful things to do in our economy that doesn't have to be the end of the world. Moreover, if we don't have the virus here, then that makes us a pretty attractive destination for all sorts of people it would be good to have here.
Wakanda forever!
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Old 7th August 2020, 09:15     #977
Know me.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing
Really? Because I got the distinct impression that he was saying we needed to open the border up more?
“I am not advocating that we recklessly open the borders and allow people in. That would be crazy for our economy. But New Zealand could do a lot more by quarantining on a much larger scale" John Key
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Old 7th August 2020, 10:07     #978
Know me.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
If we're pointing to US immigration we're surely also pointing to US debt...

The tools for paying back tomorrows debt will be the same as paying back today's: a productive society. Or is that what's in question? We're at the end of our run, kiwis are about to turn all lazy and shit?

I don't expect Labour to innovate, I expect it will be us. People aren't going to sit around all ho-hum, well got no job, nothing to do about it. Many will. The whole domestic violence thing hasn't disappeared, for many losing their job will be just one more message that the world is bullshit. But more will put themselves out there, have a go at something.

The government's job is to keep the country running. The "innovations" we see from politicians are the kind that gets/keeps them in power.
You asked if immigration can go on forever and I pointed to the USA. I don't think that their national debt has got anything to do with immigration.

Its a given that we need a productive society to even start paying back the debt. By tools I was referring to things like a capital gains tax, death taxes, another top end PAYE bracket to high earners, long long long term bonds, GST at 20% etc etc.

The government can really help with innovation. They can provide capital to build infrastructure like the UFB network, build universities, tax breaks for R&D, immigration incentives for the highly skilled.
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Old 7th August 2020, 14:25     #979
Lightspeed
 
Well, we can just keep borrowing forever? Right? I point to the US.

The government indeed can build or tear down our physical and social infrastructure. We're just now re-entering the building phase.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 7th August 2020 at 14:26.
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Old 7th August 2020, 14:34     #980
Lightspeed
 
My point is we can't keep immigration up forever.

Right now we're in a fucking catch 22. We need to build more houses, but there's not enough people here to build them. So we need to bring in more people. Who require housing.

I certainly want tax reform, but it's not tax reform that pays the bills. It's us. And we've got nowhere to live. WTF?
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Old 7th August 2020, 17:53     #981
Know me.
 
The current Labour government should have gone all in on Kiwibuild. Instead its been an abject failure, they just plain old fucked it up. I'd like them to try again but I doubt anyone in the present government has the cojones to do it right.
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Old 7th August 2020, 18:47     #982
Nothing
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Know me.
“I am not advocating that we recklessly open the borders and allow people in. That would be crazy for our economy. But New Zealand could do a lot more by quarantining on a much larger scale" John Key
Yeah, so I'm not sure I agree with scaling up the quarantining. That seems to me like it would probably increase the risk of the virus getting through.
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Old 7th August 2020, 18:59     #983
Know me.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing
Moreover, if we don't have the virus here, then that makes us a pretty attractive destination for all sorts of people it would be good to have here.
How you going to do that without scaling up the quarantining?
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Old 7th August 2020, 19:09     #984
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Know me.
The current Labour government should have gone all in on Kiwibuild. Instead its been an abject failure, they just plain old fucked it up. I'd like them to try again but I doubt anyone in the present government has the cojones to do it right.
I haven't heard of a plan that would have worked. I certainly didn't expect it to. Our housing problems will take a generation to resolve as we upskill people, reform the industry. IF we upskill people, reform the industry.
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Old 7th August 2020, 20:47     #985
blynk
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing
Yeah, so I'm not sure I agree with scaling up the quarantining. That seems to me like it would probably increase the risk of the virus getting through.
I would be extremely cautious too. Especially allowing private comapines to provide their quarantine (Serco anyone).

I do feel like a lot has been learnt in the last couple of months. Security, separation etc. But it will definitely increase the chance of something going wrong
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Old 7th August 2020, 20:55     #986
Nothing
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Know me.
How you going to do that without scaling up the quarantining?
Slowly.
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Old 8th August 2020, 10:58     #987
crocos
 
Didn't know if I should post this here or in Random Politics.

US issues warning about travel to NZ due to Covid health risks
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/08/u...d-19-pandemic/

Was also interesting to see a US-centric perspective of events in NZ.
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Old 10th August 2020, 09:47     #988
pxpx
 
This made me lol.

"The U.S. consulate in Auckland, New Zealand did not immediately respond to questions from Gizmodo on Friday morning U.S. east coast time. It is, after all, nighttime in New Zealand and staff at the consulate are probably out having some fun sitting in a stadium packed full of people or going out for a nice meal at a restaurant without the fear of contracting a deadly virus."

(Also Matt Novak is an Australian, or at least, he lives in Perth. So its not really a US perspective :P)

Last edited by pxpx : 10th August 2020 at 09:49.
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Old 10th August 2020, 15:04     #989
Lightspeed
 
Here's a good breakdown of Trump's role in perpetuating the pandemic in the US:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-timeline.html

I usually don't read Slate, it's a lot of opinions I'd like to believe, but with sources that are too fringe. However, the article is comprehensive, largely using direct quotes or primary sources.

Flies in the face of US criticism of WHO. It's clear we had plenty of opportunity to mitigate what the US is dealing with, and WHO led the way in warning the world of the pandemic.
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Old 11th August 2020, 21:43     #990
StN
I have detailed files
 
So... can Razor do his breakdance now?
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Old 11th August 2020, 21:45     #991
blynk
 
Oh shit. Here we go again
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Old 11th August 2020, 21:55     #992
pxpx
 
Dang it. I don't want to wfh.
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Old 11th August 2020, 22:04     #993
fixed_truth
 
For 3 days? Wtf
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Old 11th August 2020, 22:21     #994
crocos
 
But is Auckland OK?

Srs: Stay safe, stay sensible. Good luck folks.
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Old 11th August 2020, 22:55     #995
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
For 3 days? Wtf
L3 for 3 days, then a couple of weeks at L4? I guess it will depend on how confident they are they've traced all contacts.
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Old 11th August 2020, 23:06     #996
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
jeez, kia kaha Aotearoa
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Old 11th August 2020, 23:26     #997
Nothing
 
Gotta be lock down for at least 2 weeks. If they can be confident after the next 3 days of testing and tracing, then maybe it'll be 2 weeks of level 3 instead of 2 weeks of level 4. If not, then who knows? It's only 4 cases, but as with previously, 4 cases that have been identified now is also 4 cases that had the ability to spread for 5 - 10 days before detection.
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Old 12th August 2020, 07:07     #998
pxpx
 
When's the election again?
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Old 12th August 2020, 09:24     #999
pxpx
 
Good to see everyone panic buying again. Morons.
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Old 12th August 2020, 10:22     #1000
Cyberbob
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
For 3 days? Wtf
I don't see it being three days. They're tracing and testing now, but what about tracing those that return positive from the first round, and testing them. I'm expecting it to be exponential. 4 yesterday, it'll be a handful more than that today I reckon.
Hopefully I'm wrong.
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