Shootings in Christchurch - Page 3

Nich · 22nd March 2019, 17:06

One book some people would like you to think is on every white supremacist's book shelf, and other actually is on every white supremacist's book shelf.

Deadmeat · 22nd March 2019, 19:10

I'm not saying it's 100%, but it'd make a decent venn diagram.

Lightspeed · 23rd March 2019, 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by xor

Not surprised. We will do the thinking for you, citizen.

It's a business with nothing close to a dominant market share. This isn't thinking for the citizens, this is marketing.

MadMax · 23rd March 2019, 00:29

Only in NZ could the act of a nutter be so completely and comprehensively turned on its head.

And as time goes on it just keeps on giving.

Ab · 25th March 2019, 12:45

Uh-oh. The “manifesto” has been banned in NZ and is now illegal to possess.

https://www.classificationoffice.gov...-objectionable

This plays straight into the “first the Left comes for your guns” narrative.

Nich · 25th March 2019, 12:51

Clear your cache. Especially if you have visited NZH and they transmitted excerpts from the manifesto direct to your computer.

pxpx · 25th March 2019, 13:13

Seriously Nich.

Lightspeed · 25th March 2019, 13:37

Exactly why I'm glad of the ban. I don't need to be coming across excerpts of writings by someone about to kill a bunch of people. If that's not objectionable material, then nothing is.

Ab · 25th March 2019, 13:47

Yeah but now we can't easily have discussions like "look at this chunk of the manifesto, it's just copypasta used in hundreds of forum posts and video comments, does this really look like a carefully-thought out racist diatribe?"

I mean, we could formally apply for an exemption to enable us to legally read the document, but seriously?

Lightspeed · 25th March 2019, 13:53

Yeah, true. Better stop banning child porn too, just so we can be sure that child sex is as horrifying as expected. Shit, if we don't people might start thinking there's actually something to fucking kids we're missing out on.

Ab · 25th March 2019, 14:13

Dude your false equivalence game needs work

Lightspeed · 25th March 2019, 14:18

There is nothing to be gained from viewing this material. It's disgusting and inconsiderate of those impacted. It will teach us nothing we don't already know.

I just said the same thing as my previous post.

Ab · 25th March 2019, 14:25

Instead of "viewing this material" say "reading those words".

Cyberbob · 25th March 2019, 14:36

"Thinking those thoughts"

Liberty, safety, deserving neither, etc.

Lightspeed · 25th March 2019, 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab

Instead of "viewing this material" say "reading those words".

There is nothing to be gained from reading those words. It's disgusting and inconsiderate of those impacted. It will teach us nothing we don't already know.

My right to be free of the thoughts of mass murderers trumps the rights of those who suddenly want to know what someone has to say after they've killed a bunch of people.

Ab · 25th March 2019, 15:26

I think we all have a vested interest in analysis of what someone had to say BEFORE he killed a bunch of people.

And you can be free of those thoughts by choosing to not read them.

Nich · 25th March 2019, 15:36

I am all for making this guy an unperson, and to deny him a voice. But the barn doors are being closed after the horses have bolted.

The saturday newspapers were piled high and thick cover to cover with all details of this murder. Screengrabs, manifesto, names, timeline and map of the murder spree.

Meanwhile, Reddit (for instance) was busy shutting shit down and making sure the video, the manifesto were scrubbed from the site. The moderators took it upon themselves to do the right thing. The respectful thing.

The news media had a field day with this shit and made us all complicit in their thirst for tragedy and gore. And this week we're all supposed to forget that we spent last weekend gawking at this shit guilt-free because it was sanctioned by news media?

pxpx · 25th March 2019, 15:37

edit: thread moved on lol

pxpx · 25th March 2019, 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nich

we're all supposed to forget that we spent last weekend gawking at this shit guilt-free because it was sanctioned by news media?

Speak for yourself please.

StN · 25th March 2019, 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nich

The Non-New Zealand news media had a field day with this shit and made us all complicit in their thirst for tragedy and gore.

And to be fair, I think the Herald may have had some up for a while. But by and large, NZ media have been pretty good at making him an un-person.

pxpx · 25th March 2019, 15:48

More on manifestos:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ifesto/583567/

Lightspeed · 25th March 2019, 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab

I think we all have a vested interest in analysis of what someone had to say BEFORE he killed a bunch of people.

Yes. AND we have a vested interest for this not to be amplified to absurdity as the media and now social media is wont to do. There's little value and great potential detriment to formless public analysis.

Quote:

And you can be free of those thoughts by choosing to not read them.

No, I can't be. I would have already been exposed to the writing if I read the NZH. I just have to hope no one I know who might have read it brings it up in conversation.

Ab · 25th March 2019, 16:41

Well, I'm bringing it up in conversation. It's a weird rant that strikes me as having been written by more than one person. It's the sort of document in which the voice lurches from calling for the Hagia Sophia of historic Constantinople to be freed from minarets to bragging about how Fortnite has taught the author to floss over the corpses of his enemies to regurgitating the "gorilla warfare" meme as a response to criticism. I haven't gone through it line by line but at a quick scan it's almost a postmodern metatext, in which the unexplained references convey more information than the actual words.

Again, I'm not yet convinced that the killer is actually a white supremacist. I am reminded of this scene:

https://youtu.be/4GN6saiVN7w

Cyberbob · 25th March 2019, 16:54

From what I've heard of it, it's just most inflammatory things he could think of collating together. the Navy SEAL copypasta, "subscribe to Pewdiepie", intentionally blaming video games for his actions..

It's the How To Crazy Gunman equivalent of the list of words that was published a few years ago on how to trip up the NSA/CIA's PRISM program that snoops on traffic to find persons of interest.

Chaos and anarchy, yes. White supremacy, i'm not convinced. His best case scenario would have been an Islamic retaliation.

DrTiTus · 25th March 2019, 17:54

I find it interesting that his Islamophobia/targeting of Muslims automatically gets interpreted as "white supremacist".

I can see how a white person not liking Muslims might be taken that way, but Islamophobia has been all the rage since 2001, and the focus of "fear" has been solely Islam (not Asians/Indians/Pacific Islanders/Maori/African Americans/Hispanics) and the paranoia of Sharia Law and impending death to non-believers should we allow enough Muslims into our countries and get the right to vote or "radicalise" each other [is this a fair enough summary of Islamophobia? The religious angle?].

Sadly, I have not read the manifesto (nor am I interested enough to try to), so I can't say whether the argument of "he was a white supremacist!" is entirely valid - did he make value judgments? Did he mention other races? The media and random protests tell me he was a "white supremacist" (although I did see one place call him an "Australian supremacist" which was new), so I have no choice but to accept it.

I'm all for people discussing and attempting to eliminate racism, so I'm not suggesting the reaction is without merit, but I think it would have been better for the Muslim community for people to remain focused on Islamophobia and allow the Muslim community to allay people's fears about fundamentalism/Sharia Law. They are not a very noisy community in general from what I've seen, so their reactions have been drowned out by everyone who feels they lack "white privilege" shouting about "white people are racist" (which itself is inherently racist).

At least he wasn't a Kiwi. I think the shame/embarrassment of NZ would have been that much worse. We've been able to say it's not us - it's those bloody foreigners - we're totes not racist G.

StN · 25th March 2019, 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyberbob

From what I've heard of it, it's just most inflammatory things he could think of collating together. the Navy SEAL copypasta, "subscribe to Pewdiepie", intentionally blaming video games for his actions..

Pretty much what I was going to say - afflicted the same way flat Earthers and anti-vaxxers are. Too much exposure to unedited vitriol and mis-information without the structured thinking to see the wheat in the chaff.

Deadmeat · 25th March 2019, 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

I think it would have been better for the Muslim community for people to remain focused on Islamophobia and allow the Muslim community to allay people's fears about fundamentalism/Sharia Law.

Do you find that a lot of people you talk to are worried about fundamentalism / sharia law?

DrTiTus · 26th March 2019, 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadmeat

Do you find that a lot of people you talk to are worried about fundamentalism / sharia law?

Not so much in NZ, but online (Twitter, for reference), yes. That's the root of the hate/fear, as far as I can tell. I'm happy to hear your take on the reasons people don't like Muslims. Just telling it how I see it, and I'm not claiming to be stating facts or universal truths, just observations and personal interpretations.

In NZ it's much more tame - either centered around "when they're in our country they should live like us" (ie. not fans of the hijab/large observable cultural differences), though most people are OK with humans regardless of how they live.

As I said, it wasn't a Kiwi who did this. It was just a fuckwit who took advantage of our lax intelligence/laws.

Ab · 26th March 2019, 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Sadly, I have not read the manifesto (nor am I interested enough to try to), so I can't say whether the argument of "he was a white supremacist!" is entirely valid - did he make value judgments?

It's page after page of white--well, European--supremacist ranting. But, as previously observed, it may not be entirely genuine.

DrTiTus · 26th March 2019, 01:05

Kevin Shipp on "The NZ Attack" (but really Sharia Law)

This is just a single example that popped up on my YouTube. I haven't tried to find anything to back up my argument, it just happened to fall in my lap.

Seems to be a representative sample of what I'm suggesting.

Ab · 26th March 2019, 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Not so much in NZ, but online (Twitter, for reference), yes.

That's the same as saying "no"

DrTiTus · 26th March 2019, 13:41

I don't spend a lot of time with people IRL, so I can probably count on one hand the people I interact with regularly. That's hardly a big enough sample to conclude that "islamophobia does not exist in NZ".

Online however, I do go to places like Voat, Gab, Twitter and YouTube, places which often bring out the worst of people (because "anonymity"), and bring together strangers from all over the world with different and perhaps stronger views - and isn't that where the concern is? We aren't limited to .nz sites or speaking only to people within WiFi range.

Like I said, I'm just telling it how I see it. What other justifiable reason is there to fear/hate the Muslim community? I'm not saying it's valid, but it seems to be the backbone of it. Is there a community with a greater perceived threat? The closest I would think in NZ is "the Chinese" - not because they're trying to introduce Communism, but for economic reasons. I have not seen/heard one claim of "Muslims are buying all the houses" either online or in real life, so make of that what you will.

Nich · 26th March 2019, 14:31

2014 article linking Al Noor mosque with Al Qaida:
https://www.newshub.co.nz/nznews/chr...ect-2014060417

Article deleted by stuff:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140727...death-by-drone

And then there's this guy...
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/1071...o-support-Isis

Quote:

About two years ago, disillusioned with Christianity, he converted to Islam at the Christchurch mosque on Deans Ave.

NZ Police attending the mosque to receive courses in Islam:
https://twitter.com/Qazi_Samee/statu...81164203622401

I thought the mosque and the victims were Muslim? What the hell?

pxpx · 26th March 2019, 14:47

Where did you find those links?

Deadmeat · 26th March 2019, 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

Not so much in NZ, but online (Twitter, for reference), yes. That's the root of the hate/fear, as far as I can tell. I'm happy to hear your take on the reasons people don't like Muslims. Just telling it how I see it, and I'm not claiming to be stating facts or universal truths, just observations and personal interpretations.

In NZ it's much more tame - either centered around "when they're in our country they should live like us" (ie. not fans of the hijab/large observable cultural differences), though most people are OK with humans regardless of how they live.

As I said, it wasn't a Kiwi who did this. It was just a fuckwit who took advantage of our lax intelligence/laws.

-5 Internet points for citing twitter

So why do you think during a time of crisis (or frankly any time) it's on the Muslim community to assuage the fears of these extremists?

Maybe try real life people instead of gab.. people.

Ab · 28th March 2019, 14:05

Wrap it up toleranceailures. The honeymoon's over and the left is back to nuttiness.

Quote:

On Saturday, a group called Love Aotearoa Hate Racism organised a rally for the victims in Auckland's Aotea Square.

Ahmed Bhamji, chairman of the Mt Roskill Masjid E Umar, gave a speech questioning where the gunman got his funding from. He said he suspected it came from "Mossad" and "Zionist business".

Mossad is the foreign intelligence agency of Israel responsible for covert operations, intelligence gathering and counterterrorism.

"I really want to say one thing today. Do you think this guy was alone... I want to ask you - where did he get the funding from?" he can be heard saying in video footage.

"I stand here and I say I have a very very strong suspicion that there's some group behind him and I am not afraid to say I feel Mossad is behind this."

One person can be heard shouting in support: "It's the truth. Israel is behind this. That's right!"

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-z...ch-attack.html

Lightspeed · 28th March 2019, 16:06

Which part of that is "the left" and which part is the nuttiness?

Nich · 28th March 2019, 17:32

His funding came from investing in Bitconnect . No, I'm not joking.

https://www.coinspeaker.com/christch...er-bitconnect/

Lightspeed · 28th March 2019, 17:36

That's... something.

Analysis of reporting by the Columbia Journalism Review:
https://www.cjr.org/analysis/christc...a-coverage.php

Ab · 28th March 2019, 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

That's... something.

Analysis of reporting by the Columbia Journalism Review:
https://www.cjr.org/analysis/christc...a-coverage.php

Wow. That's interesting.

23rd March 2019, 00:29	#84
MadMax Stuff	Only in NZ could the act of a nutter be so completely and comprehensively turned on its head. And as time goes on it just keeps on giving. __________________ My degree of sarcasm depends on your degree of stupidity.

25th March 2019, 17:54	#105
DrTiTus HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE	I find it interesting that his Islamophobia/targeting of Muslims automatically gets interpreted as "white supremacist". I can see how a white person not liking Muslims might be taken that way, but Islamophobia has been all the rage since 2001, and the focus of "fear" has been solely Islam (not Asians/Indians/Pacific Islanders/Maori/African Americans/Hispanics) and the paranoia of Sharia Law and impending death to non-believers should we allow enough Muslims into our countries and get the right to vote or "radicalise" each other [is this a fair enough summary of Islamophobia? The religious angle?]. Sadly, I have not read the manifesto (nor am I interested enough to try to), so I can't say whether the argument of "he was a white supremacist!" is entirely valid - did he make value judgments? Did he mention other races? The media and random protests tell me he was a "white supremacist" (although I did see one place call him an "Australian supremacist" which was new), so I have no choice but to accept it. I'm all for people discussing and attempting to eliminate racism, so I'm not suggesting the reaction is without merit, but I think it would have been better for the Muslim community for people to remain focused on Islamophobia and allow the Muslim community to allay people's fears about fundamentalism/Sharia Law. They are not a very noisy community in general from what I've seen, so their reactions have been drowned out by everyone who feels they lack "white privilege" shouting about "white people are racist" (which itself is inherently racist). At least he wasn't a Kiwi. I think the shame/embarrassment of NZ would have been that much worse. We've been able to say it's not us - it's those bloody foreigners - we're totes not racist G. __________________ Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand...

26th March 2019, 01:05	#110
DrTiTus HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE	Kevin Shipp on "The NZ Attack" (but really Sharia Law) This is just a single example that popped up on my YouTube. I haven't tried to find anything to back up my argument, it just happened to fall in my lap. Seems to be a representative sample of what I'm suggesting. __________________ Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand...

26th March 2019, 13:41	#112
DrTiTus HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE	I don't spend a lot of time with people IRL, so I can probably count on one hand the people I interact with regularly. That's hardly a big enough sample to conclude that "islamophobia does not exist in NZ". Online however, I do go to places like Voat, Gab, Twitter and YouTube, places which often bring out the worst of people (because "anonymity"), and bring together strangers from all over the world with different and perhaps stronger views - and isn't that where the concern is? We aren't limited to .nz sites or speaking only to people within WiFi range. Like I said, I'm just telling it how I see it. What other justifiable reason is there to fear/hate the Muslim community? I'm not saying it's valid, but it seems to be the backbone of it. Is there a community with a greater perceived threat? The closest I would think in NZ is "the Chinese" - not because they're trying to introduce Communism, but for economic reasons. I have not seen/heard one claim of "Muslims are buying all the houses" either online or in real life, so make of that what you will. __________________ Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand...

22nd March 2019, 17:06	#81
Nich	One book some people would like you to think is on every white supremacist's book shelf, and other actually is on every white supremacist's book shelf.

22nd March 2019, 19:10	#82
Deadmeat	I'm not saying it's 100%, but it'd make a decent venn diagram.

25th March 2019, 12:45	#85
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	Uh-oh. The “manifesto” has been banned in NZ and is now illegal to possess. https://www.classificationoffice.gov...-objectionable This plays straight into the “first the Left comes for your guns” narrative.

25th March 2019, 12:51	#86
Nich	Clear your cache. Especially if you have visited NZH and they transmitted excerpts from the manifesto direct to your computer.

25th March 2019, 13:37	#88
Lightspeed	Exactly why I'm glad of the ban. I don't need to be coming across excerpts of writings by someone about to kill a bunch of people. If that's not objectionable material, then nothing is. __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

25th March 2019, 13:47	#89
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	Yeah but now we can't easily have discussions like "look at this chunk of the manifesto, it's just copypasta used in hundreds of forum posts and video comments, does this really look like a carefully-thought out racist diatribe?" I mean, we could formally apply for an exemption to enable us to legally read the document, but seriously?

25th March 2019, 13:53	#90
Lightspeed	Yeah, true. Better stop banning child porn too, just so we can be sure that child sex is as horrifying as expected. Shit, if we don't people might start thinking there's actually something to fucking kids we're missing out on. __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

25th March 2019, 14:13	#91
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	Dude your false equivalence game needs work

25th March 2019, 14:18	#92
Lightspeed	There is nothing to be gained from viewing this material. It's disgusting and inconsiderate of those impacted. It will teach us nothing we don't already know. I just said the same thing as my previous post. __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

25th March 2019, 14:25	#93
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	Instead of "viewing this material" say "reading those words".

25th March 2019, 14:36	#94
Cyberbob	"Thinking those thoughts" Liberty, safety, deserving neither, etc. __________________ ɹǝʌo sᴉ ǝɯɐƃ ʎɥʇ Last edited by Cyberbob : 25th March 2019 at 14:39.

25th March 2019, 15:26	#96
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	I think we all have a vested interest in analysis of what someone had to say BEFORE he killed a bunch of people. And you can be free of those thoughts by choosing to not read them.

25th March 2019, 15:36	#97
Nich	I am all for making this guy an unperson, and to deny him a voice. But the barn doors are being closed after the horses have bolted. The saturday newspapers were piled high and thick cover to cover with all details of this murder. Screengrabs, manifesto, names, timeline and map of the murder spree. Meanwhile, Reddit (for instance) was busy shutting shit down and making sure the video, the manifesto were scrubbed from the site. The moderators took it upon themselves to do the right thing. The respectful thing. The news media had a field day with this shit and made us all complicit in their thirst for tragedy and gore. And this week we're all supposed to forget that we spent last weekend gawking at this shit guilt-free because it was sanctioned by news media?

25th March 2019, 15:48	#101
pxpx	More on manifestos: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ifesto/583567/

25th March 2019, 16:41	#103
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	Well, I'm bringing it up in conversation. It's a weird rant that strikes me as having been written by more than one person. It's the sort of document in which the voice lurches from calling for the Hagia Sophia of historic Constantinople to be freed from minarets to bragging about how Fortnite has taught the author to floss over the corpses of his enemies to regurgitating the "gorilla warfare" meme as a response to criticism. I haven't gone through it line by line but at a quick scan it's almost a postmodern metatext, in which the unexplained references convey more information than the actual words. Again, I'm not yet convinced that the killer is actually a white supremacist. I am reminded of this scene: https://youtu.be/4GN6saiVN7w

25th March 2019, 16:54	#104
Cyberbob	From what I've heard of it, it's just most inflammatory things he could think of collating together. the Navy SEAL copypasta, "subscribe to Pewdiepie", intentionally blaming video games for his actions.. It's the How To Crazy Gunman equivalent of the list of words that was published a few years ago on how to trip up the NSA/CIA's PRISM program that snoops on traffic to find persons of interest. Chaos and anarchy, yes. White supremacy, i'm not convinced. His best case scenario would have been an Islamic retaliation. __________________ ɹǝʌo sᴉ ǝɯɐƃ ʎɥʇ Last edited by Cyberbob : 25th March 2019 at 16:59.

26th March 2019, 14:47	#114
pxpx	Where did you find those links?

28th March 2019, 16:06	#117
Lightspeed	Which part of that is "the left" and which part is the nuttiness? __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

28th March 2019, 17:32	#118
Nich	His funding came from investing in Bitconnect . No, I'm not joking. https://www.coinspeaker.com/christch...er-bitconnect/ Last edited by Nich : 28th March 2019 at 17:33.

28th March 2019, 17:36	#119
Lightspeed	That's... something. Analysis of reporting by the Columbia Journalism Review: https://www.cjr.org/analysis/christc...a-coverage.php __________________ Stay shook. No sook.