NZGames.com Forums
Register FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Go Back   NZGames.com Forums > General > Open Discussion
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 3rd October 2018, 15:21     #41201
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xor
It's interesting that you resort to namecalling when DrTitus made a retort. Sook, seriously? I think you need to stop with the microaggressions, lightspeed. It's very...toxic.
I was using the word as a verb, not a noun.

Perhaps you can tell me what you want, rather than what I need? I've got my needs covered, thanks.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2018, 16:10     #41202
[Malks] Pixie
 
Never send a physicist to do a social scientists work - they'll fuck it up.
__________________
Civilised is as civilised does and civilised people walk among us.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2018, 16:36     #41203
xor
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
I was using the word as a verb, not a noun.

Perhaps you can tell me what you want, rather than what I need? I've got my needs covered, thanks.
I think in light of your microaggressions and toxic comments toward your fellow comrade that you are to be sent to re-education camp immediately where comrade commissar Cunliffe will teach you how to correct your language, first by apologizing for being a man (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSQzTKcUda0)

Last edited by xor : 3rd October 2018 at 16:37.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2018, 17:01     #41204
Lightspeed
 
Laugh

Of course, I see my error now. I'm sorry my dick is so big.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2018, 17:08     #41205
Nich
 
lol, at that moment Cunliffe realised The Group of Radical Tolerance was an exclusive club.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2018, 17:16     #41206
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Laugh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Of course, I see my error now. I'm sorry my dick is so big.
4 characters long, or 5 if you measure to the base of the balls!
__________________
Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand...
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2018, 17:34     #41207
Lightspeed
 
Angry talking

It's not the number of characters, it's the size of the font that counts!
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2018, 17:53     #41208
xor
 
You've now offended the trans community, you are deplatformed for your offensive comments.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2018, 19:08     #41209
Lightspeed
 
Speaking of anti-vaxxers: Anti-vacination billboard taken down
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2018, 20:50     #41210
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Apologies for the absence of my usual sarcastic/inflammatory posting in this thread today, moving house, fuck I hate.

Anyway. Professor Strumia.

In my down time between picking boxes of stuff up from one place and getting yelled at to put them in another place, I gave the PDF of his PPT a quick scan. Some quick thoughts:

- dude obviously isn't superfluent in English
- the PDF doesn't seem to contain the text of his presentation, just his on-screen material, so I have no idea what he actually said in person or if he said it in Italian or English
- jesus powerpoint sucks
- jesus people suck at conveying information when using powerpoint
- looks to me like Strumia went out of his way to acknowledge the issues facing women in the sciences; the "physics was invented by men" bit that he's getting lynched for was literally on a slide entitled "Discrimination against women". He was giving an example of something systemic that makes shit hard for women!
- summary: he's getting "So what you're saying is"d Cathy Newman style hard by people who didn't even read his presentation let alone hear what he said
- no-one is arguing with his data, which is a lot of the ppt
- Strumia, a non-native-English speaker, is getting reamed by fluent English users who are parsing his every implication and every possible inference in the worst possible ways
- he's fucked. This is already a "you're worse than Hitler for even bringing this research up, my feelings are hurt, I want to speak to your manager, I'll have your job for this, I asked for a cheeseburger without gherkin" situation, and social justice warriors will be virtue-signalling until Strumia is a smoking hole in the ground.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 00:53     #41211
Nich
 
His first mistake could arguably be when he assumed his audience spoke English, and thus he revealed himself to be a hetro-cis-normative manplainer worthy of contempt.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 07:40     #41212
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
"This workshop was continuously telling (saying): 'men are bad, men are sexist, they discriminate against us' — lots of things like this," he said. "I did a check to see if this was true ... and the result was: That was not true."

"There is a political group that wants women, and other people, to believe that they are victims," he said. Noting the suspension, Strumia lashed out at the Geneva center, but expressed hope that it would come around to his way of thinking.

"I believe CERN is making a mistake," he said. "They suspended me because it's true ... and it's contrary to the political line. And I hope CERN will at some point understand. I hope this is just the first self-preservation instinct."

"Somebody had to speak."
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/new...ectid=12135306

Sounds like he has an axe to grind. He doesn't acknowledge that it's his drawing inferences from the data that's the problem ie, his biological determinism that the gender in-balance is actually about IQ and peoples (innate) choices.
__________________
Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 07:58     #41213
[Malks] Pixie
 
Pages 24-26 put him well in the conspiracy theory camp.

What I find interesting is that he uses a lot of contemporary citation information as an indicator of both success and quality, without mentioning the huge issues with citation indices - let alone his own work on trying to develop a 2nd degree factor for citation ranking (which was ostensibly what his uninvited talk was supposed to be about).

Oh using his own employment failure to a woman with less citations as a "case study" is just fucking hilarious (not to mention unethical).

Literally no citations on his "discrimination against women" slide, but manages seven on his "discrimination against men" slide? Stop it, the intentional biased framing is killing me!

If you're wondering why no one is "debating the data" it's because he knows that it's unreliable (he's actually literally argued this), others who actually study cultural fields know that it's only a small part of the picture and every other person is rolling their eyes at the idea that citations are the only thing which contribute towards employment or success in the field.

Dude wrote a presentation designed to be controversial, presented it under false pretences and is then shocked when there are repercussions. There are literally dozens of ways that some of the information in there could have been framed that made it palatable and useful to the audience.

If he is being lynched then he picked the tree, hung the rope, lit the torches and sent out the invites - he just needed a hand kicking the stool out from under his feet.
__________________
Civilised is as civilised does and civilised people walk among us.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 10:00     #41214
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Do you think that having a controversial opinion and saying it out loud is a good enough reason for dismissal?

I realise that we live in a world where such an outcome ought to be expected, but do you think that such an outcome is reasonable and is a net positive for society?

This guy deserves to be fired, as he "roundhouse kicked" a pro-life woman. This crosses the line, because he didn't just express his opinion, he physically assaulted someone. I doubt many people have any sympathy for him, and I doubt anyone can argue that free speech/expression extends to assaulting someone with whom you disagree.
__________________
Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand...
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 10:15     #41215
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
He wasn’t fired because he had a controversial opinion, he was fired because someone felt offended. That’s a small but enormous difference.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 10:25     #41216
[Malks] Pixie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
Do you think that having a controversial opinion and saying it out loud is a good enough reason for dismissal?
It wasn't just a controversial opinion though was it? It was the way he expressed it - both in terms of being an uninvited speaker, providing a misleading outline of what the talk would be about and having a poor rationale and degree of evidence when he did deliver it (much of which is old and refuted). As I understand it the delivery of the talk was even more ramshackle than the slides.

https://twitter.com/sheydaipek/statu...11306058768384

In most places I've worked bringing the organisation into disrepute is considered serious misconduct and has the potential to lead to dismissal - I'm pretty sure this would be the view CERN had of his actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
I realise that we live in a world where such an outcome ought to be expected, but do you think that such an outcome is reasonable and is a net positive for society?
We've always lived in such a world, it's just that instances like this are far more visible now days (for both technological and social reasons). Can't answer the "net positive for society" question because I think that's in the realm of wishful thinking (i.e. we have no way of measuring it or predicting the outcomes of different situations).
__________________
Civilised is as civilised does and civilised people walk among us.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 11:03     #41217
Lightspeed
 
lol, I think you guys are misrepresenting the issue somewhat. Are you perhaps offended?

He wasn't fired because he shared an opinion or because someone felt offended. He did share an opinion and I'm sure someone felt offended, but that didn't get him fired.

He was fired because he's a scientist holding a position of authority who used bad science to promote a particular point of view. Offended people may have played a role in his dismissal, but it wasn't offence alone that led to the consequences he's facing.

Gender is a complex issue that needs to be handled with sensitivity. There are a lot of people who would like to take information that might suggest one thing or another without engaging fully with the science to promote their agenda. Agendas which have real world consequences. No one needs convincing of that right? We seen plenty of that in action.

You can make accurate statements about vaccination that sound scary when held out of context. If a member of a DHB started promoting a view using accurate, yet insightful data about vaccinations, would we be surprised or disappointed when they lose their position?

And the science around vaccination is very clear. If that science can be distorted to the point it impacts the health in our community as it clearly has, how much more so is this possible with something as opaque as social science?
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 11:14     #41218
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Malks] Pixie
As I understand it the delivery of the talk was even more ramshackle than the slides.

https://twitter.com/sheydaipek/statu...11306058768384
Perfect example of one of my observations. That very offended person whose tweets you link to was not present at the presentation and does not know what was said, but is offended by what she has imagined was. And now you are too.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 11:21     #41219
[Malks] Pixie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Perfect example of one of my observations. That very offended person whose tweets you link to was not present at the presentation and does not know what was said, but is offended by what she has imagined was. And now you are too.
I'm offended? News to me.

I guess I could be offended by a "hotshot" physicist playing at being an amateur sociologist? Would that help?

I mean it is worth while to highlight that he was speaking as an amateur outside of his field of expertise.
__________________
Civilised is as civilised does and civilised people walk among us.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 11:24     #41220
Lightspeed
 
Ab can only view this through the lens of offended people.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 12:02     #41221
Nich
 
God help us if we leave public discourse about gender to approved speakers who only talk about approved subjects using approved methods.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 12:09     #41222
[Malks] Pixie
 
Sheesh hyperbole much - all I said was in this discussion he isn't an expert. He is the literal definition of an empty suit (to use a Talebism).
__________________
Civilised is as civilised does and civilised people walk among us.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 12:11     #41223
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
God help us if we leave public discourse about gender to approved speakers who only talk about approved subjects using approved methods.
And yet, we have another thread the bemoans the consequences of just the opposite, where anyone can have their say on anything in any way they like.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 12:23     #41224
Lightspeed
 
One day we're going to wish that the only people who were allowed to speak publicly about climate change were those who had done the hard work in understanding climate change.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 12:50     #41225
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Malks] Pixie
I'm offended? News to me.
You know what I mean you, someone who wasn't there, have an understanding of the content of the presentation that is based on the reaction of someone who wasn't there either. That's how these trainwrecks happen.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 12:56     #41226
pxpx
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
One day we're going to wish that the only people who were allowed to speak publicly about climate change were those who had done the hard work in understanding climate change.
I'm already there
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 12:57     #41227
Nich
 
It isn't an exaggeration to point out that just a slight public misstep can be blown out of proportion both in the response, and the counter-response. Even darlings like Steven Pinker gets cannibalised for mentioning there are biologically 2 genders.

But no one group has their hand on the lever that deems something good or bad. I think the outrage is largely unintentional and effortless. Twitter is 4chan-gone-mainstream. It's capacity to overwhelm and destroy can spontaneously manifest from a simple click of support for some showerthought scaled across millions of half-engaged participants.

It's different to climate change obfuscation. Propaganda on climate change comes from a concerted effort to distort by big oil and petro-chemical companies. The gender outrage mob is like a kitten playing with a moth.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 12:58     #41228
[Malks] Pixie
 
For Ab: Aside from that link to one tweet my assessment of the situation has been solely based on the contents of the slides - which are shit in my professional opinion (both the layout and content). The circumstances surrounding how he ended up speaking have been widely reported as well.

Any judgements I'm making are based on what I have access to.
__________________
Civilised is as civilised does and civilised people walk among us.

Last edited by [Malks] Pixie : 4th October 2018 at 13:01.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 13:26     #41229
[Malks] Pixie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
It isn't an exaggeration to point out that just a slight public misstep can be blown out of proportion both in the response, and the counter-response.
And? Isn't this the debate friendly free-speech anything goes paradise that is supposedly the epitome of democracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
I think the outrage is largely unintentional and effortless. Twitter is 4chan-gone-mainstream. It's capacity to overwhelm and destroy can spontaneously manifest from a simple click of support for some showerthought scaled across millions of half-engaged participants.
I think the outrage has always been here - it's simply more visible and accessible now. Certainly much of the gender material has been bubbling away since the 60s when it started to gain traction in the mainstream.

Having said that I've come to be convinced that all social media which operate on a large scale (so excluding things which have a geographic grounding or bias) have a primary function of producing affect, while communication has become a secondary function which only supersedes affective functions in a case of things like national or regional disasters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
But no one group has their hand on the lever that deems something good or bad.
I agree but someone should tell that to the Professor Strumia who seems to believe that there is an international cabal of Jewish academics who have been plotting the downfall of western civilisation by degrading the moral centre of our youth. (pgs 24-26 of his powerpoint).
__________________
Civilised is as civilised does and civilised people walk among us.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 13:55     #41230
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Malks] Pixie
For Ab: Aside from that link to one tweet my assessment of the situation has been solely based on the contents of the slides - which are shit in my professional opinion (both the layout and content
oh FUCK yes. They're a disaster. I can not think of a more awful combo than a non-English speaker with shitty communication skills (duh, because scientist) using Powerpoint to present about a controversial subject. This was always going to be a trainwreck.

Even if Strumia's position were completely reversed ("women are inherently the bestest at physics and the system is appropriately weighted in their favour!") he would still be getting lynched. Noone with his background using Powerpoint on that subject would be able to avoid it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 14:30     #41231
[Malks] Pixie
 
His English is heavily accented but perfectly understandable (footage from a different conference). Also looking at the presentation he has there it's simple, but perfectly fine for the purpose - so he is competent in powerpoint (or one of his post-grads or TA's are).

As a professional appraisal I can think of a couple of ways he could have re-framed the information he was presenting but he would have had to hold back on drawing the conclusions he did. Also those last couple of pages would just have to go - they have no place in a presentation like this and any good insights he had would have been undermined. Finally, and most importantly, this was not the forum to be presenting this material. At all. Write it up properly, get it peer reviewed and present it at an actual conference and link it to his work on second generation citation algorithms.

As it stands it's basically political theatre dressed up as a scientific presentation.

[As a side note this consultancy gig is pretty cool and going well - not self sustaining as yet and I need to get some new clients, but my results and feedback from clients has been great!]
__________________
Civilised is as civilised does and civilised people walk among us.

Last edited by [Malks] Pixie : 4th October 2018 at 14:32.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 14:43     #41232
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Make sure you're getting paid
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2018, 09:55     #41233
Nich
 
Welcome to the Fragilista Club
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th October 2018, 11:01     #41234
Cyberbob
 
For shits & giggles, I went back to 2003 for a few minutes to see what NZGames was talking about back then.

You know when you reflect on your past and think "What the hell were we all thinking?" - It was one of those moments.

edit: holy crap, britney.paradise.net.nz still resolves to homepages.paradise.

One of the few URL's from 2003 not broken.
__________________
ɹǝʌo sᴉ ǝɯɐƃ ʎɥʇ

Last edited by Cyberbob : 8th October 2018 at 11:05.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th October 2018, 12:39     #41235
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberbob
a few minutes
Any longer and it feels like my soul might cave in on itself. Either I don't know what I'm saying or I get it, but I wish I found a better way to say it.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th October 2018, 20:57     #41236
MadMax
Stuff
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6fNucgzCDs

Orwell - Trailer

Awesome game. Was free in the weekend
__________________
My degree of sarcasm depends on your degree of stupidity.
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2018, 01:17     #41237
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberbob
For shits & giggles, I went back to 2003 for a few minutes to see what NZGames was talking about back then.

You know when you reflect on your past and think "What the hell were we all thinking?" - It was one of those moments.

edit: holy crap, britney.paradise.net.nz still resolves to homepages.paradise.

One of the few URL's from 2003 not broken.
Oh god
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2018, 08:07     #41238
Cyberbob
 
I don't know if it was mpx's 'Hottest nz geek chick' thread, or Flic's great Wellington meetup thread (Epic night, btw) that made me think it, but it sure was a throw back to a simpler, more stupid, time.
__________________
ɹǝʌo sᴉ ǝɯɐƃ ʎɥʇ
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2018, 16:25     #41239
leadinjector
 
i am somehow both continually amazed and yet completely unsurprised by dipshits who continue to get scammed on facebook. not just the idiots in that news article today but in my current role its like a wave of stupidity that washes over my face every day.
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2018, 21:11     #41240
blynk
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadinjector
i am somehow both continually amazed and yet completely unsurprised by dipshits who continue to get scammed on facebook. not just the idiots in that news article today but in my current role its like a wave of stupidity that washes over my face every day.
But the lady has the latest iphone for only $400, thats a bargain
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



© Copyright NZGames.com 1996-2023
Site paid for by members (love you guys)