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Old 18th March 2009, 07:01     #81
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fidgit
Nick Smith is selling bullshit
Well, yes he is. Although, aspects of what he is saying are both true and sensible too. For example, providing free physio may seem like a fair and reasonable thing to do from a lay perspective, but offering this type of benefit is plain and simple dumb. You can be sure the previous governement were told this. This sillyness has to be tunred off.

Those quoting the PWC report are issuing just the same amount of bullshit; although here it's blind naivity leading to people simply not understanding the words that were written. The bullshit here is deeper and smellier - quite possibly arising from those in this camp: not having access to advisors who understand what they are talking about, and some being rather too stupid to be playing in this space.

So, bullshit from both sides. Both sides have a political agenda, and both sides mean well in their own twisted ways.
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Old 18th March 2009, 18:14     #82
Hemebond
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Teapot
Well, yes he is. Although, aspects of what he is saying are both true and sensible too. For example, providing free physio may seem like a fair and reasonable thing to do from a lay perspective, but offering this type of benefit is plain and simple dumb. You can be sure the previous governement were told this. This sillyness has to be tunred off.
Perhaps I've missed it, but where in your post do you explain why you think free physio is dumb?
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Old 18th March 2009, 18:37     #83
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
I very deliberately didn't cover that. If you're intersted, any introductory text on insurance will cover why that type of benefit can't be offered.
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Old 18th March 2009, 19:23     #84
adonis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Teapot
I very deliberately didn't cover that. Because I'm a cock.
Golden Cop-out.

I have no problem hearing other people's point of view, but this appears to be your stock-standard response, and it's just lame.
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Old 18th March 2009, 22:20     #85
fidgit
Always itchy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Teapot
I very deliberately didn't cover that. If you're intersted, any introductory text on insurance will cover why that type of benefit can't be offered.
When you are well, you contribute funds to your insurer (ACC). When you get injured, you stop work, and don't contribute. Further, you draw from the insurers funds (weekly compensation, doctors bills.) If you don't get better, you don't return to work, and continue to draw from your insurer. If ACC provide physiotherapy, people with sprain-strain injuries, or those that have reduced function following operations, are healed faster (and can return to work earlier, where evidence has proven they will return to full function faster).

If they remove free physio, people that can't afford it will stay injured, drawing weekly compensation for much longer.

My job involves interaction with ACC, but in a vastly-removed-from-finances direction. I would appreciate further clarification from you. (and this is sincere, I'm not trying to pick a fight and would appreciate it if you could explain your point of view without vitriol.)
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Old 19th March 2009, 12:01     #86
Draco T Bastard
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by plaz0r
I'm pretty sure that National has never said they want to sell off ACC - as far as I can tell that shit has all been coming from the media. What I *have* seen National saying is that they want to open up ACC to private competition. Can't really see any huge problems with that personally.
The private companies will take all that they can make a profit on leaving ACC with everything that can't make a profit. This will mean that those aspects of ACC will have to cost more than they do now. Throw in the fact that private insurance companies try very hard not to pay out and you'll have a system that will go from being the best in the world to a mediocre one just so that private insurance firms can take another $200m out of the economy every year.


NACT thus far: Nothing but lies and misdirection.
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Old 19th March 2009, 12:35     #87
Dusty
 
Mr. Key's new comment of the day;
"Give your tax break to charity"

Certainly makes sense from "warm and fuzzy" point of view....but c'mon, what is this saying about the government in the first place?
We'll ignore you, the needy, and let the rich get richer. But we'll leave it up to them if they want to give their money to you.
Nice one Key. Would you like any dressing with that foot of yours?

I swear - we have our own mini-Bush.

Last edited by Dusty : 19th March 2009 at 12:37.
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Old 19th March 2009, 12:44     #88
SpaceCowboy
Here be dragons
 
i havent been following this thread much, so can someone enlighten me as to why ACC requires competition in the first place?
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Old 19th March 2009, 12:50     #89
caffiend
 
Nick Smith (Minister for ACC) is basically claiming ACC has had a blowout of liabilities resulting from mismanagement of the board. He doesn't think they're being held to account for their actions, something he believes competition would correct.

Other people are saying that the recent increase in liabilities are as a result of the economic turmoil at the moment, and that comparatively to other international health agencies ACC is performing well.

Go here for more: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-t...nd-the-reality
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Old 19th March 2009, 12:51     #90
Saladin
Nothing to See Here!
 
Because in their worldview, not doing so is denying businesses the opportunity to make a profit.
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Old 19th March 2009, 22:10     #91
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fidgit
I would appreciate further clarification from you.
Broadly the problem comes down to the change in behaviour of claimants that arises when they see a benefits as being free; and they measure "free" as meaning they don't pay at the time of receiving treatment.

What happens is that utilisation increases far more than the corresponding improvement in health in the population. This happens because too many people seek treatment they simply don't need. Normally, it takes several quarters for this type of problem to ramp up. Which, is exactly what has happened here. The end-game is that significantly higher premiums are needed for everyone, in return for which most people don't get anything.

On the flip side, utilisation by people who need care to be free (the very poor) doesn't necessarily imporve significantly. In the worst of cases, people can't afford to get to the treatment provider, and so the fact they can't afford the treatment anyway isn't really the issue.

Even tiny part-charges e.g. $5 are enough to help the people who are a problem to realise that the treatment isn't free. And, such modest part-charges don't really put off those poor that would have gone if the treatment was free.

Perhaps an analogy is the need to charge a tiny amount for plastic bags. If they're free, lots of people want them. If they cost 10 cents then lots of people won't buy them, yet they get their gorceries home perfectly well - so they've not missed out on anything. And, anyone who can make it to the store can surely afford 10 cents for a bag if they really need it.

I've seen this type of thing happen in the work I've done, both when ACC was open to competition, and in other lines of insurance. Also, this type of scenario really is covered in text books - it falls into the "really bad ideas" parts of the book.

ACC is in a particulalry awkard position. They have staff (obviously) that fully understand the implications of doing things like this. Unfortuantely, they have to pander to politicians who need to worry about their image. And, "free physio" is going to be a vote winner.

EVIL labor, and Saintly National are both telling blatant porkies about ACC at the moment. Really, it's a bit tiresome.
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Old 19th March 2009, 22:17     #92
plaz0r
 
They should just raise people's ACC levies based on their claim history, just like .. you know .. any other insurance company would be entitled (and expected) to do. People who want to damage themselves playing contact sports and jumping out of aeroplanes can pay a little more for the privilege.
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Old 19th March 2009, 22:39     #93
Dusty
 
Is it just me - or does GT turn almost every thread into a topic about his work??
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Old 19th March 2009, 23:16     #94
Savage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty
Is it just me - or does GT turn almost every thread into a topic about his work??
He was asked, and responded.
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Old 20th March 2009, 19:33     #95
chubby
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by plaz0r
They should just raise people's ACC levies based on their claim history, just like .. you know .. any other insurance company would be entitled (and expected) to do. People who want to damage themselves playing contact sports and jumping out of aeroplanes can pay a little more for the privilege.
... or smokers,
or drivers,
or junkfood eaters,
etc,etc,etc
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Old 20th March 2009, 20:16     #96
plaz0r
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chubby
... or smokers,
or drivers,
or junkfood eaters,
etc,etc,etc
Just drivers; you wouldn't get ACC for the others.

But yeah, people's ACC levies should scale depending on how much they're likely to wind up getting paid out to them.
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Old 20th March 2009, 20:40     #97
chubby
 
^^i agree....
im just hoping to get some input from the faux free choice/personal responsibility crowd.
unlikely though, seeing as those particular self-destructive behaviors are 'normal'.
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Old 20th March 2009, 21:14     #98
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty
Mr. Key's new comment of the day;
"Give your tax break to charity"

Certainly makes sense from "warm and fuzzy" point of view....but c'mon, what is this saying about the government in the first place?
We'll ignore you, the needy, and let the rich get richer. But we'll leave it up to them if they want to give their money to you.
Nice one Key. Would you like any dressing with that foot of yours?

I swear - we have our own mini-Bush.
And where was Mr Key speaking when he made that comment? I wonder if it's relevant.
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Old 20th March 2009, 21:15     #99
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Teapot
This happens because too many people seek treatment they simply don't need.
It too can be said that to many physio's unnecessarily prolong treatment.
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Old 20th March 2009, 22:15     #100
chubby
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
And where was Mr Key speaking when he made that comment? I wonder if it's relevant.
do politicians say what they're told to say?
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Old 20th March 2009, 23:18     #101
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Hint: don't be surprised if someone talks about charity when he's the guest speaker at Philanthropy New Zealand's annual conference.
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Old 20th March 2009, 23:30     #102
chubby
 
but you voted for them as a breath of fresh air, right?
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Old 21st March 2009, 02:03     #103
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
I don't understand the question.
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Old 21st March 2009, 09:34     #104
chubby
 
(while i admit that it's been real hard to keep the sulks at bay) im still blown away that people actually voted for these greedy fools, here and now.
i get your disgust with labour, but what was actually meant to change with national?
they're not politicians, they dont want to run a country- just stack the deck so themselves and their mates get greater benefit-and ACT? jesus wept.*shakes head*when hydes libertarian pretensions extended to social and ethical considerations i could see the point in his oxygen quota, but c'mon- look at the fuck-knuckles that he's taken on board, and the compromises he's made to get in the job.
you(Ab), among many others on this board seem to think obama is the shit-and that america should be proud of their adoption of redistributive,multi-lateral,ethically consistant leadership- and yet you condemned us here to its polar opposite for at least the next 3 years, probably 6 seeing as the standard disenfranchisement resulting from their 'fiddleing while rome burns' can be easily blamed on the Global Financial Crisis, and as our own intellectual,GT, has already pointed out, the prior administration.

i guess it wasnt a question.
just a disgusted noise.
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Old 21st March 2009, 09:45     #105
funnel web
 
Rolling eyes

Reality check on chubby
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Old 21st March 2009, 10:03     #106
ZoSo
 
Love the size changes.
Labour lackeys floundering, without being able to parrot Helen's lead = National doing GREAT so far.
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Old 21st March 2009, 10:29     #107
StN
I have detailed files
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by funnel web
Reality check on chubby
Penile disfunction quote of the day?
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Old 21st March 2009, 10:31     #108
sidbo
Raptus regaliter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chubby
semi-words
They won, you lost.

Eat that.
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Old 21st March 2009, 10:43     #109
chubby
 
with every post
the wingnuts make me feel vindicated.
is there a grownup out of bed yet?
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Old 21st March 2009, 10:44     #110
FaTBoB
 
MR Key
"Imagine someone who used to give $10,000 to an organisation.

"Now with the tax deductions, they get a third of that back. So they can give $15,000 and with the rebate, their net giving is the same. So there's tremendous capacity for New Zealanders to increase their giving."
-----------------------------------------------------

Soo if Key gets $100 tax refund and gives $150 to charity,
Government is $150 out of pocket, and Key is exactly where he was to start with, fuck your a clever cunt mr john key.
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Old 21st March 2009, 10:54     #111
gentle
 
You're.
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Old 21st March 2009, 10:56     #112
FaTBoB
 
didn't you get the meme?
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Old 21st March 2009, 10:57     #113
plaz0r
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chubby
with every post
the wingnuts make me feel vindicated.
is there a grownup out of bed yet?
sp0nge?
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Old 21st March 2009, 11:02     #114
Hemebond
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidbo
They won, you lost.
They won and we all lost.
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Old 21st March 2009, 11:05     #115
gentle
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FaTBoB
didn't you get the meme?
It must've slipped behind the couch where you'll also find my literal interpretation of your statement.

Last edited by gentle : 21st March 2009 at 11:07.
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Old 21st March 2009, 11:10     #116
chubby
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by plaz0r
sp0nge?
nope.
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Old 21st March 2009, 11:42     #117
Reformed_Quint
 
I love how labour supporters are wailing and waving their hands in the air with great big wracking sobs.

Many lolz.
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Old 21st March 2009, 13:03     #118
JP
 
At least they're complaining about something with a little substance, unlike the past couple years of Nat supporters crying like bitches about retarded shit like 'nanny state'.

I love how people cry about things like ACC, which may be a bit abused, but provide an amazing service that society can more than afford to provide. We have probably a million more wasteful things in society that people should cut down on before something like ACC. Where's the harm in having extremely good coverage for once? They should do it with the entire health care system. Why not? Hell, why not education as well? It's one of the major flaws of capitalism that we hold ourselves back considerably from out potential production in these areas.

The only people who it disadvantages are the wealthy who would save money getting private insurance. But fucking hell, if anyone should bare the burden it should be them. Not like they don't get more out of the system than anyone else.

As for the Nat's so far. Well they haven't done anything atrocious as far as I know. But i'll be amazed if it lasts through an entire term. If it did I would be a lot happier about the NZ political system. I'd still prefer a Labour government, but if we could get strong solid long term thinking from both parties, then we'd be way ahead of most countries leadership wise. However, i'll give the NZ soccer team a better chance of winning the next world cup than that happening. But i'm open and it would be nice.

Last edited by JP : 21st March 2009 at 13:05.
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Old 21st March 2009, 14:34     #119
Spink
 
Wouldn't life be more enjoyable if you didn't plan to spend the next 3 years sulking?
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Old 21st March 2009, 15:28     #120
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FaTBoB
MR Key
"Imagine someone who used to give $10,000 to an organisation.

"Now with the tax deductions, they get a third of that back. So they can give $15,000 and with the rebate, their net giving is the same. So there's tremendous capacity for New Zealanders to increase their giving."
-----------------------------------------------------

Soo if Key gets $100 tax refund and gives $150 to charity,
Government is $150 out of pocket, and Key is exactly where he was to start with, fuck your a clever cunt mr john key.
Jesus H Christ, it's like trying to explain quantum mechanics to toddlers.

Look, I'll make it real simple. Key was guest speaker at the Philanthropy New Zealand national conference. He was addressing people who have commendably demonstrated a commitment to making significant donations to charity. He was speaking to people who donate lots of money. Key was saying "The new tax scheme is going to mean that you get a chunk of your donation back as a tax rebate. I would like to think that many of you will also donate that rebate to charity rather than pocketing it or spending it on useless shit, because at the end of the day you won't be out of pocket by any more than you are with your present donations, and that extra donation could really make a difference to some people."

Wow, now I look at what I read, the guy is obviously the Antichrist. How could I have been so blind.
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