National Thus Far

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Golden Teapot

As I've posted before the cheapest and best option here is to give people $5k and a one-way business-class ticket to Australia with the understanding that they must never ever come back (and will be denied entry and shipped to the Auckland Islands if they try).

Holy crap! What a brilliant idea! I'd be happy to pass the hat around NZG in order to raise funds to send GT across the ditch! Who's in??

EDIT: On second thoughts, it still won't stop him from using NZG. Nevermind.

[Golden Teapot]

You give me $5k and a one-way business class ticket to AU and I'll happily agree to not post here again.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Juju

Ahh classic left v right analogies.
Right = Stop whinging that we get more money back thanks to tax breaks
Left = You're rich - I'm jealous so please don't treat me mean otherwise I may not work for you.

You think it's wrong for those who work 40-50 hour weeks like everyone else to want a bigger slice of the cash that goes around? You don't think it's okay for a person to wonder why when they work their ass off for long, hard hours they only just manage to maintain the bare minimum, others are living super-glitzy lifestyles?

It would be different if the majority who make a minority of the cash, could disappear and the entire system would stay in place. But the majority isn't redundant, it's integral.

Why do so few get to control the bulk of our resources?

[smeggar]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

You think it's wrong for those who work 40-50 hour weeks like everyone else to want a bigger slice of the cash that goes around? You don't think it's okay for a person to wonder why when they work their ass off for long, hard hours they only just manage to maintain the bare minimum, others are living super-glitzy lifestyles?

It would be different if the majority who make a minority of the cash, could disappear and the entire system would stay in place. But the majority isn't redundant, it's integral.

Why do so few get to control the bulk of our resources?

Perhaps if you start thinking in terms of win-win situations rather than win-lose it might become clearer. I think you'll find the bare minimum is about one mud hut and one meal per day, and if you're lucky some of your children making adulthood.

[leadinjector]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

You think it's wrong for those who work 40-50 hour weeks like everyone else to want a bigger slice of the cash that goes around? You don't think it's okay for a person to wonder why when they work their ass off for long, hard hours they only just manage to maintain the bare minimum, others are living super-glitzy lifestyles?

It would be different if the majority who make a minority of the cash, could disappear and the entire system would stay in place. But the majority isn't redundant, it's integral.

Why do so few get to control the bulk of our resources?

yeah well someones gotta sweep the floor

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by smeggar

Perhaps if you start thinking in terms of win-win situations rather than win-lose it might become clearer. I think you'll find the bare minimum is about one mud hut and one meal per day, and if you're lucky some of your children making adulthood.

Well, I was just talking about our society. If you expand it to the entire world, it's at least an order of magnitude worse.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Well, I was just talking about our society. If you expand it to the entire world, it's at least an order of magnitude worse.

Why, because all of a sudden you're one of the rich bastards lording it over the poor?

[Crankshaw]

All this amazingly constructive debate got me curious as to the tax distribution in nz. Turns out it's all on the IRD site for anyone who wishes to find out the actual numbers (yeah, I know, this is the wrong place for that sort of thing).

http://www.ird.govt.nz/aboutir/exter...-income-bands/ is a good one as is: http://www.ird.govt.nz/resources/0/e...01-to-2008.xls if you want the actual numbers of people/tax paid. Add your own column for a tax paid per person thing if that's your beef. As a side note I saw that the 140k-150k row paid less tax per person than the 130k-140k but that was an exception.

Fun facts by tax bracket for 2008 tax year (latest for which there is data):

Top tax bracket (70k+) although looking at the data I'd be inclined to break out a new category for 250k+:
8.6% (296,640.0 / 3,414,830) of people are in this top tax rate (currently 38% tax). Currently the people that fall into this bracket pay a total of $11.4B in taxes on taxable income of 35.9B. Most is at either end of this bracket (70-100k and 250k+), there's less in the middle as there's not many people in those ranges.

Next tax bracket (48,001 to 70k):
12.3% (447130 / 3,414,830) of people are in this and will be affected by any changes to this bracket (currently 33% tax). Currently the people that fall into this bracket pay a total of 6.2B of tax on taxable income of 25.7B.

Next tax bracket ($14,001 to $48,000):
45.8% (1,562,360.0 / 3,414,830) of people in the dataset are in this bracket (currently 21% tax). This people that fall into this bracket pay a total of 8.6B in taxes out of 44.5B in taxable income.

Bottom tax bracket ($0 to 14k):
32% ( 1,108,700 / 3,414,830 ) of people in the dataset fall into this bracket (127k on nil, for whatever reason). This tax bracket is 12.5%. The income tax generated by these people is a total of 1.2B out of 7.6B in taxable income.

This is income tax only (not gst etc), it's also me doing lots of =SUM(A1:B2) in that spreadsheet so take with grains of salt. Also worth noting that the total is 3.4, not 4.0 mil people. Presumably the diff is people who are not work/job able (kids etc). Also, this is statistics so assume it's worse than damn lies.

[Cynos]

Originally Posted by Golden Teapot

You give me $5k and a one-way business class ticket to AU and I'll happily agree to not post here again.

When the tax cuts come, you'll be able to afford it yourself.

[David]

Originally Posted by Cynos

Oh yeah, let's make them entirely dependent upon the government for budgeting. And what part of "congratulations after your rent you have $90 for every other expense ever" strikes you as being non-minute?

($90 for a person under 25).

Considering they're asking for welfare in times of hardship and should not be seen as taking it as a career lifestyle, I see all of the $90 for every other expense ever being non-minute.

Collective bargaining agreements would allow cost savings across the board, if we stopped treating our welfare recipients to the luxury of cash.

[David]

Originally Posted by xor

If you create a system like that then all you'll do is create a market for unemployed people wanting to trade their 10kg sack of kumara and watercress for one bottle of beer.
Good in theory but pretty bad in practice.

Good point, but at least it then forces them to be thoughtful and actually "work" to get their beer.

Might motivate them into the work force quicker, too.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Ab

Why, because all of a sudden you're one of the rich bastards lording it over the poor?

That's certainly not what I was thinking. Hell, I'm not even employed as of the end of this week.

[Saladin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model IMHO

[blynk]

Originally Posted by Golden Teapot

As I've posted before the cheapest and best option here is to give people $5k and a one-way business-class ticket to Australia with the understanding that they must never ever come back (and will be denied entry and shipped to the Auckland Islands if they try).

The problem is is that half of those people probably have criminal convictions and will be denied enty into Oz.

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by David

Might motivate them into the work force quicker, too.

Yep, making it hard on those with not much will decrease poverty & also tax cuts for the top tax bracket will have a trickle down effect as the the marginal propensity to save is bs

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by David

Considering they're asking for welfare in times of hardship and should not be seen as taking it as a career lifestyle, I see all of the $90 for every other expense ever being non-minute.

Collective bargaining agreements would allow cost savings across the board, if we stopped treating our welfare recipients to the luxury of cash.

There's nothing altruistic about the welfare system. The current economic situation should make that apparent.

When jobs disappear, as we have seen in the last few years, the welfare system maintains a viable work force for when jobs are available again. The worse off you make it for people who lose their jobs the less able they are to re-enter the work force. However if you keep such a work force comfortable and give them the opportunity to upskill themselves through university or other forms of education then when the economy picks up again your work force has the potential to be even more able to work then at the point they lost their jobs.

[leadinjector]

and if its too comfortable you get a bunch of lazy fucks who think why should i get a job, dole is easier and it means i can earn money under the table too!

[Reformed_Quint]

I love your idealistic world, Lightspeed.

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by leadinjector

and if its too comfortable you get a bunch of lazy fucks who think why should i get a job, dole is easier and it means i can earn money under the table too!

Do you? Before the recession we had one of the lowest unemployment rates in the OECD.

[Juju]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

You think it's wrong for those who work 40-50 hour weeks like everyone else to want a bigger slice of the cash that goes around?

If we are referring to people on $12.50 an hour; then I don't think it's wrong because everyone wants more money for what they do. I think it's unrealistic, because people on $12.50ph are obviously in a low skilled job. You're basically saying that someone who has spent 10 years at uni and a hundred thousand dollars in tuition fees should get the same as a turd burglar - because it's "right".

You don't think it's okay for a person to wonder why when they work their ass off for long, hard hours they only just manage to maintain the bare minimum, others are living super-glitzy lifestyles?

Its fine for them to wonder that. They can wonder all they like. At the end of the day, wondering isn't going to give them more money on a silver platter. Not breeding like fucking rabbits, listening to their seniors, studying hard, working hard, and applying their skills instead of constantly thinking they can't do it will get them further than "wondering".

It would be different if the majority who make a minority of the cash, could disappear and the entire system would stay in place. But the majority isn't redundant, it's integral.

Absolutely agree that they are integral.
But so are the wealthy that built the business from scratch, took massive risks in financing, worked hard for a long time, and have put themselves in a position to hire the very people that you are referring too.

Why do so few get to control the bulk of our resources?

Imagine a board meeting with every factory floor employee being a member.
You ask a lot of questions, but don't really seem to be doing much in the way of providing (realistic, un-Utopian) solutions.

[Saladin]

Originally Posted by leadinjector

and if its too comfortable you get a bunch of lazy fucks who think why should i get a job, dole is easier and it means i can earn money under the table too!

The countries with the most comprehensive welfare systems in the world are also amongst the lowest when in comes to unemployment rates. Though they also have near-free education which makes it a lot easier for the unemployed to get back into work.

I haven't studied it depth since I have no real desire to, I elect people to do that for me, but it seems like whole "long-term benefit bludgers" thing is largely a beat-up and not the huge problem some people make it out to be. How many of them are there actually in this country, less than a thousand?

[Saladin]

Originally Posted by Juju

Imagine a board meeting with every factory floor employee being a member.

What you've described is pretty much how democratic governments run :P

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Reformed_Quint

I love your idealistic world, Lightspeed.

What idealistic world? I haven't made any suggestion as to how to make the world right, just about how it is wrong.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Juju

If we are referring to people on $12.50 an hour; then I don't think it's wrong because everyone wants more money for what they do. I think it's unrealistic, because people on $12.50ph are obviously in a low skilled job. You're basically saying that someone who has spent 10 years at uni and a hundred thousand dollars in tuition fees should get the same as a turd burglar - because it's "right".

Why have we all agreed that it's skill that primarily determines how much someone gets paid? Why have we agreed to live as individuals than as a society? I'm not saying this is wrong, I just think we could all be just a bit more critical in our thinking and stop just accepting what is.

The thing is, most of those who spend loads of money at uni are pretty much in the same situation as those who barely make it out of high school into a factory job. They still only get a very thin slice of all the money that goes around.

The ones who control the vast bulk of wealth in our society are those who have figured out how to get us to make money for them. Why should we be making money for someone else? Why can't we get to make money for ourselves?

[blynk]

Originally Posted by Saladin

.... How many of them are there actually in this country, less than a thousand?

I agree with your comments, but I do believe that there are more than a thousand.
At the best point we had an unemployment rate of about 3.x%, which I think was around 60k people.
So that is still 60k people without a job, at the best of times. So I would base the number of long-term benefit bludgers to be closer to the 10k+ number (at least)

[xor]

Hey Buddy, if Gordon Gecko says it's good to be greedy then so do I

[[Malks] Pixie]

Originally Posted by blynk

So that is still 60k people without a job, at the best of times.

No - that is 60k people who are drawing a benefit - it would also include those who are in part-time employment (and getting a top up) and those who are temping (for in between contracts) as well as those who are totally unemployed. It also includes those people who working in a voluntary aspect (such as for the Salvation Army). It also doesn't include those people who are unemployed but not drawing a benefit.


Pixie

[Juju]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Why have we all agreed that it's skill that primarily determines how much someone gets paid? Why have we agreed to live as individuals than as a society? I'm not saying this is wrong, I just think we could all be just a bit more critical in our thinking and stop just accepting what is.

You're lucky you added that last sentence as a disclaimer... because otherwise...just....wow.

The thing is, most of those who spend loads of money at uni are pretty much in the same situation as those who barely make it out of high school into a factory job. They still only get a very thin slice of all the money that goes around.

Yea in a lot of cases you're correct. But they have set themselves up for a much bigger career path down the track.
There are also plenty of cases of high school drop outs starting as a floor sweeper in a factory who have done what I said before and applied themselves, eventually becoming a CEO or GM or whatever. McDonald's NZ is a perfect example - I believe one of the top brass started out as a drive through drone (Don't quote me on that though).

The ones who control the vast bulk of wealth in our society are those who have figured out how to get us to make money for them. Why should we be making money for someone else? Why can't we get to make money for ourselves?

Not exactly sure what you're point is here. Some people have figured out how to get other people to make them money, yes.
Others wonder why they can't do the same... um... they can? The people that they are looking at were in the exact same situation at some point.

Yea sure there are some exceptions....old money, lottery winnings, whatever. But we are talking on a broad scale here.

[leadinjector]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Why should we be making money for someone else? Why can't we get to make money for ourselves?

because the majority of people arent smart enough.

[Lightspeed]

And that's the crux of it, isn't it? Those who lead our society and control our resources are just in the game of making sure no one can figure out how to beat them. The rules of our society seem to be if you're smart enough to get rich, lucky for you. If you're not, grovel.

[leadinjector]

im not really seeing your point here.

[Lightspeed]

What are you struggling with?

[leadinjector]

i just wonder where you are going with this, stupid people get fucked, clever people make money. we already knew that. youre asking what it would be like if this wasnt the case? what some kind of equal wealth scheme or something? wouldnt change a fucking thing because at the end of the day those at the top will always screw those at the bottom. always.

[Cynos]

Originally Posted by David

Considering they're asking for welfare in times of hardship and should not be seen as taking it as a career lifestyle, I see all of the $90 for every other expense ever being non-minute.

A word in that paragraph is wrong I think, as it makes no sense.

Originally Posted by David

Collective bargaining agreements would allow cost savings across the board, if we stopped treating our welfare recipients to the luxury of cash.

What the hell does collective bargaining have to do with allowing adults to make decisions for themselves?

[Cynos]

Originally Posted by leadinjector

and if its too comfortable you get a bunch of lazy fucks who think why should i get a job, dole is easier and it means i can earn money under the table too!

Which is like <5% of beneficiaries.

Originally Posted by blynk

I agree with your comments, but I do believe that there are more than a thousand.
At the best point we had an unemployment rate of about 3.x%, which I think was around 60k people.
So that is still 60k people without a job, at the best of times. So I would base the number of long-term benefit bludgers to be closer to the 10k+ number (at least)

Define benefit bludger. A lot of the long-term beneficiaries have long-term health problems.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by leadinjector

i just wonder where you are going with this, stupid people get fucked, clever people make money. we already knew that. youre asking what it would be like if this wasnt the case? what some kind of equal wealth scheme or something? wouldnt change a fucking thing because at the end of the day those at the top will always screw those at the bottom. always.

I'm no communist, I think people have to have something to strive for. I guess I simply don't believe things have to be the way they are. I believe that the wealth of the world can be used to make a better life for more people and the result would be a net gain for everyone, including those who have to give up their position as ultra-wealthy.

[Cynos]

Originally Posted by leadinjector

i just wonder where you are going with this, stupid people get fucked, clever people make money. we already knew that. youre asking what it would be like if this wasnt the case? what some kind of equal wealth scheme or something? wouldnt change a fucking thing because at the end of the day those at the top will always screw those at the bottom. always.

What's the old quote about capitalism being a system where man exploits man, and communism being the other way around?

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Juju

You're lucky you added that last sentence as a disclaimer... because otherwise...just....wow.

So you're utterly convinced that people should be remunerated based simply on the degree of skill their work requires and that people should act purely out of self interest with no concern of their role in society. Convinced to the point that any other perspective must be ludicrous.

Can you tell me, how did you become so convinced?

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

The rules of our society seem to be if you're smart enough to get rich, lucky for you. If you're not, grovel.

It's called "equal opportunity".

[Lightspeed]

Yes, the quotes are well deserved.