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Old 14th September 2022, 21:37     #2881
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
OK, but the suggestion was that there is a climate of anti-intellectualism. If the best you can come up with is a personal attack on the person making their case, then it's likely we're not actually against intellectualism, but that we as a society lack intellect.

Are you in fact agreeing that there is an active "anti intellectual" agenda being pushed? Or are you just unintellectual?
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Old 14th September 2022, 21:51     #2882
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
OK, but the suggestion was that there is a climate of anti-intellectualism.
I think most people understand and recognise how the sophisticated infrastructure of our society is only held up by robust, effective expertise and that the cracks start to show pretty quickly if anyone is trying to fake it.

However, there is an agenda, people with incentive and means to sow unreasonable doubt into our systems of knowledge, to question the legitimacy of institutions built on these systems without any legitimate basis.

It's not a conspiracy, it's an aligning of values, where people notice what those with shared interests do and copy what they see as effective in maintaining those interests.

I guess it's inevitable. Change is constant, these are always going to be some losing what they have in the churn, doing whatever they can to keep what they can.
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Old 14th September 2022, 22:21     #2883
_indigo1
 
What personal attack??
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Old 14th September 2022, 22:27     #2884
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
I think most people understand and recognise how the sophisticated infrastructure of our society is only held up by robust, effective expertise and that the cracks start to show pretty quickly if anyone is trying to fake it.
That's true. But I think we're starting to witness more and more cracks starting to show. The rise of information sharing (the internet) has allowed that. We can easily discuss subjects with people everywhere on the planet and get exposed to information (some valid, some invalid) that is not on the news. Some of the "cracks" that showed during COVID were when more information was coming out that we weren't allowed to talk about (leading to bans from social media) and we lost trust. A leader has to be trusted, otherwise they can't lead. We can only be effectively governed by consent.

Quote:
However, there is an agenda, people with incentive and means to sow unreasonable doubt into our systems of knowledge, to question the legitimacy of institutions built on these systems without any legitimate basis.
I think more people are questioning the legitimacy of institutions because of the lack of trust, as a result of our leaders being caught out in their lies or nonsensical policies (eg you can't go to the toilet inside when you visit friends/family, the virus is literally hunting down the unvaccinated, this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated, etc.). If you're being lied to by a person you are supposed to trust, is it easy to continue to trust them? If you point out it doesn't make sense, but you have to do it anyway, is that robust and effective leadership? For how long do people put up with nonsense before they say "enough is enough".

Quote:
It's not a conspiracy, it's an aligning of values, where people notice what those with shared interests do and copy what they see as effective in maintaining those interests.
It's not a conspiracy - I'd probably say it's closer to "civil unrest" or "an uprising" or at the very least, again, a lack of trust in our institutions. Which is not the fault of the population, it's the fault of the leaders for causing it to happen. It's not Putin or Xi telling us that things don't make sense - it's obvious that some of the things which took place were nonsense.

Quote:
I guess it's inevitable. Change is constant, these are always going to be some losing what they have in the churn, doing whatever they can to keep what they can.
We definitely live in interesting times. I don't think it's anti-intellectual at its core... it may be anti-establishment, or more specifically these days it's anti-WEF/globalism (which has not worked out well for many, yet enriched the few), and people are questioning how democracies sell out to unelected leaders from international organizations that want global control. Which is also not a conspiracy. We have democracy fed to us as the "best" option by our leaders, who then go and do things which are undemocratic. Cracks will appear when people find out, especially if it's not on the news and they find out accidentally, from people who, as you say, may have an agenda. Honesty and transparency shouldn't just be election campaign slogans. They should be values that are adhered to.
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Old 14th September 2022, 22:45     #2885
Lightspeed
 
I'm thinking more material than allegorical. Like our leaky home saga, or things like the water in Flint, Michigan.

Shit don't keep going just cause we want. Once our sophisticated expertise starts to lapse, actual things break. Noticeably, unequivocally. Sure, you might be able to quibble over whether a particular bridge is safe or not, but once it's down, it's down.
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Old 20th September 2022, 22:53     #2886
Nich
 
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/he...latest-release

AUS has been sitting at steady ~16% excess deaths for the last 12 months. Is this what public health success looks like?

If so, I think I can do a better job for me and my family. Vic government has made an adversary out of me for the rest of my days.
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Old 21st September 2022, 06:33     #2887
blynk
 
Because I only scanned and looked at the pretty pictures.
Do they have anything for the year prior? What was the reduction in deaths in that year.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 02:46     #2888
Lightspeed
 
US: 48 exploited pandemic to steal $250M from food program

Quote:
Federal prosecutors say the defendants created companies that claimed to be offering food to tens of thousands of children across Minnesota, then sought reimbursement for those meals through the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s food nutrition programs. Prosecutors say few meals were actually served, and the defendants used the money to buy luxury cars, property and jewelry.

“This $250 million is the floor,” Andy Luger, the U.S. attorney for Minnesota, said at a news conference. “Our investigation continues.”
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Old 22nd September 2022, 10:35     #2889
_indigo1
 
Murica gon muric
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Old 22nd September 2022, 11:14     #2890
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
64 hours of vaccine manufacturer profits wasted. It's shocking. Instead of not feeding kids, that money could have not prevented transmission and infection. It could have not fixed the climate. It could have not helped reduce inflation. It could have gone toward not winning a war. Look at these leeches taking taxpayer money with nothing to show for it. That's certainly not the American way.
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Last edited by DrTiTus : 22nd September 2022 at 11:16.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 12:01     #2891
Nich
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blynk
Because I only scanned and looked at the pretty pictures.
Do they have anything for the year prior? What was the reduction in deaths in that year.
Previous mortality stats.
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/he...ity-statistics

here is: Jan 2020 - Dec 2021
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/he...-2020-dec-2021

Quote:
For doctor certified deaths:

- There were 149,486 deaths that occurred during 2021 and were registered by 28 February 2022.

- This is 8,517 deaths (5.7%) more than the 2015-19 average and 7,151 deaths (5.0%) more than in 2020.

- The age-standardised death rate (SDR) for 2021 was 431.0 per 100,000 people. This was higher than in 2020 (424.5) but lower than the average for 2015-19 (459.0).

- Deaths due to respiratory diseases, specifically chronic lower respiratory conditions had a higher SDR in 2021 than in 2020 but the rate remained below the 2015-19 average.
General respiratory diseases down, COVID disease up. Could be that COVID out-competed other respiratory diseases in bodies, and society (possible), or doctors writing death certs just borrowing from respiratory disease column and adding to new COVID disease column (also possible).
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Old 22nd September 2022, 13:03     #2892
StN
I have detailed files
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
General respiratory diseases down, COVID disease up. Could be that COVID out-competed other respiratory diseases in bodies, and society (possible), or doctors writing death certs just borrowing from respiratory disease column and adding to new COVID disease column (also possible).
Or, and I'm going out on a limb here - the isolation and sanitation processes encouraged during the pandemic also reduced the usual respitory transmission vectors?
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Old 22nd September 2022, 13:16     #2893
Nich
 
hah! Ahh yep, just like that WaPo animation of bouncing balls. It worked if you think it worked, sure. And maybe if we do it all over again we might reverse human climate change if you think that works too.

Now, how are we, as a society, going to get the excess death rate below 16%? No one with a podium seems to give a shit.
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Old 22nd September 2022, 13:43     #2894
Lightspeed
 
While it was really hard and painful, I mean fucking brutal, I still carry so many scars, I'm kinda glad I grew up in the hood.

I grew up adapted to not trusting. To having no real expectations of adults.

I haven't had this shock that some people seem to go through where it seems obvious they've formerly enjoyed this coherent world where everything makes sense, the news tells you the truth, schools are run with kids in mind, everyone gets the help they deserve, problems are caused by bad people.

And then they've had their bubble burst. And then they just stumble. You watch them try to gain equilibrium and they can't. They try and chase what they had before, try to find that trust they once have. Someone must be telling the truth!

But none of us are. Not in that magical way some once believed.

Only only say I'm kinda glad, cause it takes me a long time to fully process the information I'm receiving, which has some... challenging consequences.

My shock was getting a job at the international airport as a kid and finding myself amongst adults that could communicate effectively and manage their emotions without acting them out. That was a great time.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 22nd September 2022 at 13:44.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 05:51     #2895
fixed_truth
 
A report card: Eight charts that show how New Zealand managed the pandemic

tl.dr "the sum total of our efforts during the pandemic were easily among the world’s most successful."
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Old 23rd September 2022, 06:12     #2896
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Public Interest Journalism Fund delivers.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 06:56     #2897
fixed_truth
 
You don't think that comparatively NZ managed the pandemic well?

Or is this just your default anti-intellectual dunning kruger go to?
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Old 23rd September 2022, 08:17     #2898
_Incubus_
 
Lockdowns, border closures etc did stuff all apparently..

https://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/health...t-covid-deaths
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Old 23rd September 2022, 10:38     #2899
_indigo1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Incubus_
Lockdowns, border closures etc did stuff all apparently..

https://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/health...t-covid-deaths
It's all a bit redundant unless the study is looking at NZ only.

Lockdowns clearly work just by basic logic. A disease cannot transmit in a 100% lockdown - and the same goes for all other social measures.

How well they work comes down to the percentage of society enacting the rules.

It's obvious that in places like the USA there is a much bugger population percentage of mouth breathers that just didn't bother with any rules - and the same goes for many countries.

NZ is a country reasonably amenable to authority. This is known.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 10:48     #2900
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
You don't think that comparatively NZ managed the pandemic well?

Or is this just your default anti-intellectual dunning kruger go to?
This is just Duncan Grieve licking the government's ass because they give him money. This isn't "journalism" - the article serves no other purpose than to congratulate the government for the COVID response and convince people that what we just went through was in fact excellent. We all lived through the response - we all have our own perspective about what the government did well, and what we think it got wrong. Even when we ranked poorly, Duncan finds a way to paint it in a positive light.

It reads very much like a typical Kiwi "per capita" argument that explains that even though we didn't win the Olympics, we still "won" in our own Kiwi way. "Our deaths were sometimes the highest per million - but that's just because others were lower!" "Inflation is up... but it could be higher, so we'll ignore it" "Our lockdowns were the worst, which makes them the best" "We had the most cases per million at some points - that's what success looks like because look over here... I'm going to talk about vaccines and how many we gave out, so don't worry about the case numbers and how there doesn't seem to be a relation. The fact there is no relation is an A+ from me because imagine how bad it would be if we weren't vaccinated."

No one needs to hear any of it, but Duncan feels a need to write it.

It certainly doesn't paint the Government like maniacs that didn't listen, made stupid rules that didn't make sense, and killed a few people with mandates for a vaccine that in hindsight was unnecessary, and beat up those who tried to point out only old people needed the vaccine anyway. Forget about all that. Even though these are probably more important issues now that the pandemic is out of the way, the PIJF is just here to placate us. We'll congratulate ourselves, and move on to the next thing.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 10:53     #2901
Nich
 
New Zealand has a steady excess death problem too (and every Western country that sucks WEF, Pfizer cock), so while every idiot was appreciative that scam science was presented as "basic logic" (If I don't see my granny, I can't make her sick!) the second order effect is society-wide hobbled immune systems and uptick in heart attacks and cancer.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 10:59     #2902
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
No one needs to hear any of it, but Duncan feels a need to write it.
You mean you don't want to hear it cause used the pandemic and your opposition to our response as a means to stoke your ego.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 11:01     #2903
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
New Zealand has a steady excess death problem too (and every Western country that sucks WEF, Pfizer cock), so while every idiot was appreciative that scam science was presented as "basic logic" (If I don't see my granny, I can't make her sick!) the second order effect is society-wide hobbled immune systems and uptick in heart attacks and cancer.
"Why can't I trust Mummy and Daddy no more?! "
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 23rd September 2022 at 11:02.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 11:07     #2904
Nich
 
more like "Why can't Mummy and Daddy let me wipe my own bum!" but yeah.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 11:13     #2905
Lightspeed
 
Yeah, that's it. You see yourself as a little person amongst big people making decisions for you.

That's not what's happening. I'd be fucking miserable if I thought that was the case.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 11:23     #2906
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Because you come across as such a positive and charming person otherwise.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 11:28     #2907
Nich
 
They gave it a red hot go trying to wipe my bum for me. Trying to convince me my immune system is insufficient, that i'd be hospitalised. Lockdowns, masks, vaccinations. All mandated, and all have produced a net negative for society / humanity. Health and medicine (and police, government, media) is having a crisis of integrity and it doesn't cost me much to point it out from time to time.

And I'm thankful in a way. I live in a small town (food bowl) with no human feces on the footpaths. I've made meaningful connections with locals, I have land with no debt to banks, and I'm working towards being self-sufficient for food, water, energy. The rest of humanity can go woke and go to hell.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 11:32     #2908
Lightspeed
 
There's no "they" Nich, there's just us. If there's a crisis we're having it. But I think actually, it's mostly just you, right? You had faith in something and now you don't, and that's left you floundering. That's how it looks at least.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 11:58     #2909
Nich
 
Something like that.
I had read Agenda 21 and all that shit, but didn't think it'd be put into action. Now when some group with money, power, influence says they're going to do something that sounds like eugenics, genocide, technocracy / fascism I'll respond as if that will become reality in 5-10 years.

The best way to respond is to live in a backwater town with plenty of food, water, and energy. Wait for sanity to be restored.
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Last edited by Nich : 23rd September 2022 at 12:00.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 12:05     #2910
Lightspeed
 
Giving up, running away is a response. It's not a solution, but at least you're doing something, right? I hear you saying that's what's best for you.

I'm helping a buddy of mine set up his own self-sufficient farm up north, partly in response to unhappiness with socio-economic circumstances, so I can't claim to be above anything.

But there's no escaping, we're still in it. If fascism comes, it's coming for us too, so we're better off being involved. There's no "outside" of this. There's no "us and them" except where we create artificial distinctions.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 12:20     #2911
Nich
 
I disagree. I think Parallel Structures and Charter Cities IS the most effective form of protest. The message is "We reject the cathedral, we can survive and thrive without it's services, institutions, or currency.". The government will respond by being more competitive / attractive rather than authoritarian / oppressive, or it will respond with violence which means it automatically loses.

Traditional protest only serves to protect the status quo (unless the protest successfully occupies the presidential palace)

As the Unabomber says in The Systems Neatest Trick:
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/libr...-neatest-trick
Quote:
So, in a nutshell, the System's neatest trick is this:

1. For the sake of its own efficiency and security, the System needs to bring about deep and radical social changes to match the changed conditions resulting from technological progress.

2. The frustration of life under the circumstances imposed by the System leads to rebellious impulses.

3. Rebellious impulses are co-opted by the System in the service of the social changes it requires; activists "rebel" against the old and outmoded values that are no longer of use to the System and in favor of the new values that the System needs us to accept.

4. In this way rebellious impulses, which otherwise might have been dangerous to the System, are given an outlet that is not only harmless to the System, but useful to it.

5. Much of the public resentment resulting from the imposition of social changes is drawn away from the System and its institutions and is directed instead at the radicals who spearhead the social changes.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 12:24     #2912
Lightspeed
 
Right, so when you say fascism, you're not thinking the 1920s-30s with militias with machine guns and armoured cars shooting down those who stand against them?

You're thinking... what? Flouride in the water?
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Old 23rd September 2022, 12:48     #2913
Nich
 
more Corporate Fascism, Corporatism, Stakeholder Capitalism et al and ultimately digital ID (https://www.eftposaustralia.com.au/p...ness/connectid) social credit system posing as "convenience".

I don't think anyone wants images of violence. The better solution is to have 2-4 approved social media hangouts that are happy to ban, shadowban, change context to decide what can be talked about (at the behest of government), and how we should talk about it. Don't assassinate, just make troublesome people invisible, digitally disabled.

I've got little ones, I distill the drinking / cooking water.
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Last edited by Nich : 23rd September 2022 at 12:51.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 13:04     #2914
Lightspeed
 
Ah, I get it. When you say fascism you mean government.

It looks like what happened was when the pandemic came, you discovered for the first time you are governed. That you have to conform yourself in some way for the sake of society.

Before that everything seemed "normal", you were oblivious to the realities of government, how we're all conforming ourselves in one way or another. Some people dramatically so, else they'll fall into poverty, social isolation. Which many do.

So having your privilege finally lapse, having to for the first time really conform yourself, you've convinced yourself this government must be the worst form of government: fascism.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 13:04     #2915
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
Even when we ranked poorly, Duncan finds a way to paint it in a positive light.

It reads very much like a typical Kiwi "per capita" argument that explains that even though we didn't win the Olympics, we still "won" in our own Kiwi way.
We did place at the Olympics. We didn't by any means run a perfect race but we still came out up front. It's not a controversial statement to say that comparatively NZ handled the pandemic well.
Quote:
It certainly doesn't paint the Government like maniacs that didn't listen, made stupid rules that didn't make sense, and killed a few people with mandates for a vaccine that in hindsight was unnecessary, and beat up those who tried to point out only old people needed the vaccine anyway.
That's just antivax, I googled my own research twaddle.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 13:20     #2916
Nich
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
So having your privilege finally lapse, having to for the first time really conform yourself, you've convinced yourself this government must be the worst form of government: fascism.
It's worse than fascism. There is a severe lack of leadership (not just my opinion) in the West, and because no one can be convinced by these pathetic humans they need to resort to "nudging" (https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...rs/nudge-unit).

I maintain these fuckers have no idea which direction to nudge society. They just point in a direction, causing untold number of negative unplanned effects, then claim they "didn't see that coming!". Better to be seen as incompetent than purposely making the world worse. The cycle repeats, no one is sufficiently outraged to occupy the presidential palace (yet).
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Old 23rd September 2022, 13:25     #2917
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
It's worse than fascism.
🤷
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Old 23rd September 2022, 13:30     #2918
Nich
 
At least with fascism you have faces, names, and ideas towards which you can aim your opposition. What we have is incompetent fools who are more than happy being perceived as such then the algorithms, bureaucracy, apps, and social media does all the heavy lifting.
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Last edited by Nich : 23rd September 2022 at 13:32.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 13:35     #2919
Lightspeed
 
With fascism you're either working a mass grave or you're in one.

Fucking hell man.
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Old 23rd September 2022, 13:38     #2920
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
pandemic is over!

Even if you TRUST the Australian government numbers:

https://www.covid19data.com.au/deaths
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