last to leave, please turn off the lights

[Ab]

Blow me. I'll be supporting the Wallabies this season. That in itself should show you how much Graham Henry has devalued the black jersey.

[caffiend]

Lame.

"Devalued the black jersey". What the fuck does that even mean?

[caffiend]

As far as Carter goes: http://www.stuff.co.nz/4569578a1823.html

Superb result. He makes some quick cash, but re-signs to the NZRU until 2011.

[Ab]

1. For want of a more appropriate English word, the mana of the All Blacks jersey - the knowledge that the fifteen guys running out there wearing the jersey were the fifteen best players New Zealand could produce. How many guys pulled on the black jersey last year? Thirty-something? How many of them were out there wearing black jerseys when they were CLEARLY NOT the best players?

2. The All Blacks "brand" makes me think of choking. Of being a bunch of overpaid prima donnas unable to deliver. Of sunbathing--oops, "conditioning"--in Marseilles while the Springboks played Currie Cup, Super 14, Tri Nations, and the World Cup one after the other.

3. The coaching staff and management of the All Blacks make me think of dodging responsibility (see "judge me on the World Cup"). Of petty rudeness (see "Collins wouldn't have made the All Blacks anyway"). Of brushing problems under the rug and doing dodgy deals behind closed doors (see "re-appointing the coaches BEFORE the review was conducted, and making Robbie Deans do his coaching presentation anyway).

4... oh fuck, I could go on on and on and on. Everything's already been posted to this forum somewhere anyway.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by caffiend

As far as Carter goes: http://www.stuff.co.nz/4569578a1823.html

Superb result. He makes some quick cash, but re-signs to the NZRU until 2011.

Oh yeah,

5. Bending rules for Carter and fucking over everyone else ever. Why the fuck is Carter able to MISS THE ENTIRE SUPER 14 and still be eligible for the AB's when the courtesy isn't extended to anyone else? Hayman, Jack, McAlister, Evans, Kelleher, Marshall, Collins, Holah, Howlett, Gear, etc etc etc? You think those guys would have signed the contracts they did if they had been told they had the option of a "sabbatical" while still being on the NZRFU payroll?

[caffiend]

Originally Posted by Ab

1. For want of a more appropriate English word, the mana of the All Blacks jersey - the knowledge that the fifteen guys running out there wearing the jersey were the fifteen best players New Zealand could produce. How many guys pulled on the black jersey last year? Thirty-something? How many of them were out there wearing black jerseys when they were CLEARLY NOT the best players?

Errr... I though RWC squads have been a rotating group of around 30 players for at least the last 3 RWCs? And we got it wrong for ALL of those, under different coaches. What's changed, except your opinion and cynicism about this particular management team, maybe brought on from the frustration of yet another failure?

Sounds more like your beef is with the general progression of rugby since it became a professional sport.

Originally Posted by Ab

2. The All Blacks "brand" makes me think of choking. Of being a bunch of overpaid prima donnas unable to deliver. Of sunbathing--oops, "conditioning"--in Marseilles while the Springboks played Currie Cup, Super 14, Tri Nations, and the World Cup one after the other.

Err... the Springboks didn't rest and recondition key players? News to me, and also perhaps to their conditiong coach: http://www.ougrote.com/2007/05/29/sp...eak-condition/

Ok yes; the timing of the ABs' conditioning was poor, meaning they missed key gametime. But I still believe conditioning (read: doing jazzercise in a pool or whatever the fuck) works - just that it needs to be timed better.

Originally Posted by Ab

3. The coaching staff and management of the All Blacks make me think of dodging responsibility (see "judge me on the World Cup"). Of petty rudeness (see "Collins wouldn't have made the All Blacks anyway"). Of brushing problems under the rug and doing dodgy deals behind closed doors (see "re-appointing the coaches BEFORE the review was conducted, and making Robbie Deans do his coaching presentation anyway).

On this we are 100% agreed. Henry, Moller and Tew are a group of douche-bags. But there's no fucking way I'll let that stop me supporting THE TEAM which represents my country.

Originally Posted by Ab

5. Bending rules for Carter and fucking over everyone else ever. Why the fuck is Carter able to MISS THE ENTIRE SUPER 14 and still be eligible for the AB's when the courtesy isn't extended to anyone else? Hayman, Jack, McAlister, Evans, Kelleher, Marshall, Collins, Holah, Howlett, Gear, etc etc etc? You think those guys would have signed the contracts they did if they had been told they had the option of a "sabbatical" while still being on the NZRFU payroll?

No of course they wouldn't have - they'd have preferred the same options as Carter. But then, the option wasn't there for them at the time so they took the money dangled in front of them. Had the NZRU been competent enough to see the impending obvious exodus, then maybe they would've had the same options available.

But to even imply they've somehow done that deliberately is to me quite odd. I just think the NZRU had to do it now that everyone else hasn't waited around to try and push their case (I wouldn't mind betting they have done or will do the same thing for McCaw). Had the players negotiated with the NZRU collectively before signing their hugely tempting contracts and looking after their own interests, then maybe they'd get to come back just as easily.

Again - this is a complaint about the management rather than the players - ergo see my response to your 3.

[ePi]

Originally Posted by Ab

Blow me. I'll be supporting the Wallabies this season. That in itself should show you how much Graham Henry has devalued the black jersey.

Pics of you + family in Wallabies jerseys or it didn't happen.

[Ab]

Princess will have me out on the front step watching the game through the window if I dare try and bring a Wallabies jersey into the house

[Rince]

I blame their new analyst

[ipee]

Originally Posted by Ab

Blow me. I'll be supporting the Wallabies this season. That in itself should show you how much Graham Henry has devalued the black jersey.

I think you were supporting the Aussies long before Henry pissed you off, you just didn't know it yet. I mean you've been crystal clear about your dislike for anything Kiwi, our incompetent Government, our Rugby Administration, Kiwi attitudes in general.

Supporting a rival just because you detest the AB coach? Jesus....get a grip.

[badassmofo]

Originally Posted by Rince

I blame their new analyst

Easier to blame the software, or the Con Artists that sold it to them and then had them develop it.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by ipee

Supporting a rival just because you detest the AB coach? Jesus....get a grip.

By their words and actions the NZRFU and its staff have demonstrated that they and I do not share the same values. The NZRFU and its staff do not represent me. Simple as that. I support all NZ rugby players, but I do not support the NZRFU or its "product".

[ZoSo]

Can't bring myself to back the Aussies but if there isn't precision play heading towards a home RWC, I'm gonna lose interest real fast.

[Macca@Work]

geez i never realised things were that bad.

[caffiend]

Originally Posted by ZoSo

Can't bring myself to back the Aussies but if there isn't precision play heading towards a home RWC, I'm gonna lose interest real fast.

Since living in the UK, and having a few UK mates over here, I've really noticed just how fickle we are. They point it out all the time. Like when my FOTB English flatmate came to a Hurricanes game with us at the stadium, which we won, and we all came out shaking our heads and going "Hmm... not a very good performance". He couldn't believe it.

When the English support their football team, they do so unreservedly, almost blindly. Sure, they know they might be shit. Sure, they might be aware of all kinds of BS politics about foreign managers, or who was or wasn't selected - maybe a lopsided inclusion of Chelsea/Man U players or bad game preparation or ridiculous salaries or whatever...

But at the end of the day they just support their national team... and they do it with genuine passion and gusto.

[vorlon]

I agree with everything that Ab has said in the 5 points he's raised above.

And looking at the team that was picked & announced today - I think I'll be picking the opposite side, except for Ireland.

[ZoSo]

Originally Posted by caffiend

But at the end of the day they just support their national team... and they do it with genuine passion and gusto.

So what. They have a losing tradition. It's easy to come from that angle. As a Warriors & Kiwi supporter, I know that well

If these new guys sharpen up vs Ireland, I'll back them all the way.

[Ab]

[caffiend]

Originally Posted by ZoSo

So what. They have a losing tradition. It's easy to come from that angle. As a Warriors & Kiwi supporter, I know that well

If these new guys sharpen up vs Ireland, I'll back them all the way.

Well don't expect to back them then; it's an untried team combination with 1 week's prep and several new caps.

ps Ab: what happened to sentiments like?:

Originally Posted by Ab

I don't give a fuck about playing in the alternate jerseys. It's the fern that's on it, not the colour of the fabric.

Originally Posted by Ab

There's a part of me that would like to see the Wallabies lose, just for the glee of seeing Connolly (one of the worst Wallaby coaches ever) fail.

But... deep down, I'll never support Australia over England. Hell, I'll never support a Northern Hemisphere team over a Southern Hemisphere team.

Go the Wallabies. And then get reamed by the black tide.

[Ab]

That post of mine contains an obvious typo, as it is a post expressing my support for Australia over England.

I see that I made that post in October 2007. Now, think for a second.... has anything happened since then that might have tainted my goodwill towards the NZRFU?

[caffiend]

Originally Posted by Ab

That post of mine contains an obvious typo, as it is a post expressing my support for Australia over England.

Fair call. Obvious now you point it out.

... my goodwill towards the NZRFU?

That's the heart of the matter. Fuck the NZRU (they've dropped the 'f' by the way - unless you sardonically leave it in to stand for the New Zealand Rugby Fuckup Union). But please tell me you still support the All Blacks.

[buckies]

Originally Posted by ipee

Are you like 5 or something?

You have every right to be pissed off at Henry, but to wish New Zealand to lose (especially to Aus) because of a dislike for the coach is BS. Grow the fuck up.

No, I defend my original statement, as I hold the utilitarian view that our best chance of winning the 2011 world cup is to cock up this year and toss out Henry as a core part of our reformation process. I'd happily sacrifice a non-RWC season for the greater glory of being the RWC victor.

If this doesn't happen then we'll only continue our trend of being top performers between world cups and entering the playoff stages of world cups with no specialist centre (no, Conrad Smith is a not even close to being a world class centre).

In order for the media, and, in turn, the NZRU (thanks for the non f clarification btw), to drop Henry as coach we will need to lose the silverware this season or the next (by 2010 we will be too close to RWC time to consider reforming our coaching panel).

Furthermore, if Aussie steal the silverware this year there is an outside chance that Robbie will take us back if we do offer him the AB's coaching job and pay him out of his Aussie contract. You can tell the ABs coaching job is what he ultimately wants. Yes, this viewpoint is idealistic, but you can always hope.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by caffiend

please tell me you still support the All Blacks.

caffiend, I still support the All Blacks. But the body of New Zealand rugby is sick, some malignant lumps need to be cut out, and rehabilitation will be painful. I want to see Robbie Deans's Wallabies defeat the All Blacks this year because the NZRU management need to all be fired, and I think that's what it will take.

[a-tech]

rugby == serious business!

[crocos]

GAAH! Si turned into a bleeding Aussie!

[caffiend]

A relevant story from TV3: http://www.stuff.co.nz/videoplayer/127579a14835.html

Couldn't agree more with Mike Corcoran's comments.

[Ab]

Something in there about "Graham Henry, Steve Tew, and Jock Hobbs getting strung up" sounded quite sensible.

[ZoSo]

Scandalous. Heh.
Understandable, more like it.

I mean we are talking about one of the greatest teams on earth not winning the pinnacle in rugby for 21 years and exporting a coach who can actually win the big games when it counts. You know, like finals.
Obviously you can't compare the S14 to the RWC but it's hardly scandalous people see it in those terms.

You expect more from the calibre of player and brand that is, the All Blacks.
If it's tarnished as much as it had been lately, then it's understandable. Not scandalous.

Again, northern hemisphere losing supporters trying to tell us our fine tradition of supporting a great team, should be on par with the countries "participation is more important than winning" philosophy. Bollocks. Win it, or lose the support. It's pretty simple.

It's not like the All Blacks are ever going to lose the core supporters in NZ. It's the casuals they need to keep on board and if they turn their back, it's a reflection on the performance. All they need to do is win, to turn it around.
As of yet, Henry hasn't done that.

[Rince]

another one: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugb...le/7451980.stm

but check the file pic they found for him.....

[mr selfdestruct]

Ab, can you unsticky the 2007 virtual challenge please?

[ipee]

Originally Posted by ZoSo

I mean we are talking about one of the greatest teams on earth not winning the pinnacle in rugby for 21 years and exporting a coach who can actually win the big games when it counts. You know, like finals.

I think most people don't realise how brilliant Henry's Super 12/14 record is. Has reached 3 finals from 3 attempts and won 2 of those finals. Also mustn't forget Henry won a third Super 12/14 title with the Blues but this time as it's technical advisor. I'm more inclined to think Henry was actually pulling the strings behind the scenes and was only technical advisor in name only.

My point being that obviously Henry can win the pressure games or else he wouldn't have Bledisloe Cups, Tri-Nations, Lions Series and Grand Slams to his name.

Deans does have a great finals record, but he's not invincible. He has lost Semi-finals and Finals.