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Old 4th December 2017, 13:39     #161
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
I don't know, what do you think riv?
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Old 5th December 2017, 20:51     #162
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blynk
Really not following this story much, but has it been determined that she hasn't help the prosecution team on other cases?
Nope
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Old 6th December 2017, 19:20     #163
blynk
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
Good find. Therefore case closed.
She was part of the prosecution teams on genocide cases
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Old 6th December 2017, 20:14     #164
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
I have to fix the facepalm icon for moments like this
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Old 6th December 2017, 20:30     #165
[Malks] Pixie
 
It's the only icon with any objective value, so yeah :-)

As a side note I ran into a friend who is a dodgy lawyer in the weekend and this entire thing came up in conversation. His eloquent summary of it was, "the defence are always part of a prosecution. Now fuck off you pedant, that's our job."
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Old 6th December 2017, 22:36     #166
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blynk
Good find. Therefore case closed.
She was part of the prosecution teams on genocide cases

Holy christ you are thick. Sometimes I just think you're naive, but - nope - you really are fucking thick.
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Old 7th December 2017, 14:49     #167
fixed_truth
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blynk
Good find. Therefore case closed.
She was part of the prosecution teams on genocide cases
In regards to the initial attack based on a fabricated story, then yes, case closed. Whether the Greens were purposely presenting her as on the prosecution of the Rwanda case is still up for debate.
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Old 7th December 2017, 19:11     #168
crocos
 
TL/DR:
  • Phil Quin has worked as a propagandist for the Tutsi Rwandan government.
  • Dozens of factual omissions, inaccuracies and some very unpleasant (and unsupported) implications in the articles.
  • This is not the first time he's done this shit
  • People that actually KNOW shit are saying Phil is full of shit

I think the lens is pointing the wrong way.

Phil Quin was hired as a PR rep by the Rwandan Hutu-led government. He's also previously rather liberal with the genocide claims previously.

Also here's a rather interesting Reddit post (with LOTS of supporting links) around possible motivations for Quin to throw the shade he has. Frankly I feel the author of that was too generous to Quin in his conclusion.

OK: To the points in Phil's article.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Quin
Gacaca is rightly seen as best practice in post-conflict reconciliation
Gacaca: A highly controversial process where defendants get insufficient time to prepare their defense, and have insufficient legal representation. This is a better option then a fair trial? Certainly that's what this Rwandan government PR Plan suggests. Human Rights Watch disagrees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Quin
Ghahraman claimed the event that precipitated the genocide — the plane crash that killed former President Habyarimana as well as the President of Burundi — may have been a war crime committed by Tutsi forces, the Rwandan Patriotic Army.
Incorrect: This theory/accusation was put forward by the French court for consideration. At no point in the paper do the authors (Ghahraman wasn't the only author despite Quin's intimations) accuse Kagame or the Tutsi forces of shooting down the plane, although they do their due diligence and explore how it MIGHT have happened and what actual evidence there was.

Indeed the entire paper is a response to accusations, to the French judge who requested that Kagame and the Tutsi be tried.

It's odd that Quin uses this paper to imply Ghahraman was a genocide denier as there is no conclusion in this document that addresses with this either triggering the massacre or that the massacre wasn't genocide. It doesn't deal with that at all. It's like Quin is trying to imply that Ghahraman's opinion is the Tutsi deserved to be massacred - a rather unpleasant implication that is in no way supported by the facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Quin
This “blame the victims” strategy was employed by Hutu Power propagandists from hours after the missile struck the plane.

the paper Ghahraman wrote contains a greatest hits of dubious claims from even more dubious sources — the kind of rumour and scuttlebutt that fuels conspiracies. It is a credulous piece of work. What’s more, it is yet another attempt to create a “both sides” narrative which can exonerate the true perpetrators.
Describing this paper as credulous is blatantly dishonest at best. It dealt with the accusations levelled, and while there is a certain amount of "what if" involved, it was highlighted that the evidence was insufficient.

However what the paper does conclude - rather dryly - concludes that there is insufficient evidence either way to consider prosecuting for war crimes as it wasn't clear who shot the plane down:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The paper's conclusion
Resolving the mystery of who is responsible for the shooting down of President Habyarimana’s plane is an important step in writing the history of Rwanda and in achieving truth and reconciliation in that country. However, a criminal prosecution is a serious undertaking, requiring establishment of each element of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. While there is personal, temporal and subject matter jurisdiction to prosecute President Kagame for the shooting down of President Habyarimana’s plane, the inconclusive determination of whether the attack constituted perfidy or treachery, or instead a permissible ruse of war, makes it more prudent not to bring such a prosecution, and to leave the debate to scholars and historians.
I'm not even touching this sentence as there's so much wrong with it that even blynk should be able to see the gaping holes in the argument:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Quin
The entire ICTR defence was predicated on a revisionist account of what happened in 1994 — one that posits the victims as perpetrators — and it is incredible that someone as smart as Ghahraman didn’t know that going into the role.
Other notable criticisms of Quin's article include:
Kevin Heller - still relevant despite the bias (but then Quin's bias as a PR guy for the Tutsi kinda counters that)
Andrew Geddis
Both men are noted law professors with considerable experience. They tear shreds out of Quin's "article".
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Old 7th December 2017, 19:23     #169
crocos
 
Oh and one more thing: A list of links where Golriz Ghahraman talks openly about Rwanda and being part of the legal defense.
https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/...nier_comments/

And as for this bullshit? Innocent until proven guilty mofos! It was taken prior to the case being concluded.

Plus even Phil has backed down from his Twitter accusations of genocide denial.

Finally: The shit about her refugee status. Fuck sake - no matter what, she was 9 years old. Some people need to pull their heads out of their arses, that's of less than zero relevance in any of this.
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Old 7th December 2017, 19:24     #170
crocos
 
Now can we move the fuck on from this BS?
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Old 3rd March 2018, 11:18     #171
Lightspeed
 
Shaw says no to corporate hospitality
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Old 3rd March 2018, 13:01     #172
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
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Old 18th March 2018, 12:48     #173
Lightspeed
 
Interesting move by Shaw:

Green Party co-leader James Shaw has done a deal with National

Quote:
The move would give the Opposition more questions on sitting days but the deal that's been struck is that the Greens can keep their questions if they choose to on certain days.
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Old 18th March 2018, 21:30     #174
fixed_truth
 
Good for National. Not seeing much benefit for Greens.
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Old 18th March 2018, 22:10     #175
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Sticking it to Winston helps the greens.
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Old 19th March 2018, 00:47     #176
Lightspeed
 
Is it the Greens' response to being compelled to support the new TPP agreement?
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Old 19th March 2018, 14:04     #177
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Farrar:

Quote:
It allows them to try and distance themselves from Labour and NZ First

Their backbench MPs probably hated asking patsy questions

It doesn’t really disadvantage the Government significantly as National is so large they had eight out of 12 questions already. Having nine out of 12 isn’t a huge difference.

It sends a slight signal to Labour and NZ First not to take them for granted

Goes down well with their supporters
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Old 19th March 2018, 17:26     #178
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
I have to hand it to the Greens, this questions and the corporate hospitality things are honourable stuff. The sort of integrity not often seen in politics. I wonder if they're trying to rehabilitate their image after Metiria?

OTOH, their support for the waka jumping bill is pretty fucking shit especially considering they're a small party in MMP.

I find the concept of the waka jumping bill to be somewhat anti-democratic.
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Old 9th April 2018, 22:43     #179
Lightspeed
 
Marama Davidson: If I’m going to be labelled radical, I’m fine with that

Quote:
I’ve been talking about how I gave birth to my babies in Middlemore Hospital, which has sewage, literal shit and mould coming through the walls. How radical would it be to just make sure our hospitals are properly funded?
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Old 10th April 2018, 01:01     #180
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
I'm not saying that hospitals aren't in desperate need of funding, but who is she complaining to?
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Old 10th April 2018, 01:15     #181
Lightspeed
 
You're hearing a complaint? It sounds more like a challenge to those who might call her radical as if that's a label unfit for a serious politician.
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Old 25th July 2019, 14:52     #182
Lightspeed
 
Well this is a bunch of useless noise the Greens don't need. Please do better.
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Old 25th July 2019, 15:41     #183
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
class bias, together with the Greens' liberal inclination towards superiority means it has a blind spot towards working-class and ordinary people.
Yep. This has made the Greens look like bunch of snooty elitists making fun of people who don't practice their diction to the BBC World Service.
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Old 25th July 2019, 16:46     #184
fixed_truth
 
I reckon there's some spin based political point scoring going on. Watching the video it's actually pretty tame (& certainly 100x less offensive than Nationals BBQ penis joke attack) it's more the point that they said they wouldn't stoop to that level.
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Old 25th July 2019, 16:53     #185
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
The Greens are historically bad at appealing to working-class people. Green diversity is your choice of white university-educated intellectuals, brown university-educated intellectuals, yellow university-educated intellectuals, straight university-educated intellectuals, gay university-educated intellectuals, young university-educated intellectuals, or old university-educated intellectuals.

This doesn't help.
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Old 25th July 2019, 17:05     #186
fixed_truth
 
Isn't this getting a laugh from the same working class block that Nationals ad was targeting? Or because it's coming from the Greens they'll get all offended?
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Old 26th July 2019, 16:28     #187
Lightspeed
 
This is why I vote Green:
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/07/2...-success-story

I don't accept any credit due to any National MP, the reforms became necessary after they screwed up what was working, to the point it couldn't be brushed off by their typical "everything's fine" mantra.
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Old 26th July 2019, 16:39     #188
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
This is why I vote Green:
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/07/2...-success-story

I don't accept any credit due to any National MP, the reforms became necessary after they screwed up what was working, to the point it couldn't be brushed off by their typical "everything's fine" mantra.
Did you... read the article?
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Old 26th July 2019, 17:53     #189
Lightspeed
 
I skimmed, on mobile right now. What did I miss?
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Old 26th July 2019, 19:54     #190
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Did you... read the article?
You referring to the bit where Adams tries to take credit?
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Old 27th July 2019, 20:21     #191
pxpx
 
Wait a minute, Adams wrote the article?
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Old 27th July 2019, 21:10     #192
Lightspeed
 
It's like Adams is making out like sexual trauma is this newly discovered issue that she was tackling. But I doubt she's got anything to say about Tolly's efforts to close down all the "hobby-horses" in favour of her targeted "investment approach".
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Old 10th September 2019, 00:15     #193
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Operation Woke Circular Firing Squad

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12264492
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Old 25th October 2019, 23:41     #194
Lightspeed
 
Former Green MPs unhappy with party's Terrorism Supression Bill support

Well they should be current Green MPs then.
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Old 26th October 2019, 08:07     #195
The Edge
 
Sue Bradford? No thanks.
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Old 26th October 2019, 21:46     #196
Lightspeed
 
Well exactly. Today's Greens need to be more like yesterday's Labour if they want to get elected.
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Old 6th March 2020, 17:14     #197
Lightspeed
 
Very sad

RIP Jeanette Fitzsimons
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Old 6th March 2020, 17:31     #198
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
RIP. The Greens could use a few more like her these days.
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Old 21st July 2020, 19:40     #199
Lightspeed
 
'Gloves are off' for NZ First and Greens leaders in unofficial election campaign

I really hope we see some more action from the Greens this election. While there's the danger of Labour vacuuming up all the their votes, I think they have a chance to demonstrate how they stand apart from certain parts of the political spectrum more coherently.
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Old 30th July 2020, 19:27     #200
Lightspeed
 
Fuck 'em up, Shaw:

James Shaw and Winston Peters go head to head over waka-jumping
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