Copyright (Infringing File Sharing) Amendment Bill

[Warrick]

I don't think there's many artists out there who care if people download their music for free.

It's the record companies that care.

[A Corpse]

Originally Posted by Warrick

This thread is so awesome. I wish we had more threads like it.

I'd suggest copying it, but Ab might get us both kicked off the intertubes.

[Thomas Meatball]

Let me get this straight... your reasoning for saying this:

Originally Posted by xpandnz

I blame limewire and kazaa for all this crap. they made it super easy to get hold of stuff, most of which was fake anyways, and then now we have pretty much everyman and his dog downloading stuff.

Is this:

Originally Posted by xpandnz

Napster was good for music sharing only. Back when I used to use it you could always seem to get some sort of quality. Then it got flooded with fakes and crap and then Metallica got involved and as such made the media about this Napster.

But they did eventually go legit if I am thinking right. You paid to download music or something.

But Limewire and Kazaa was more then music. You had movies and applications and most of it was fake garbage. You could sift through the crap to get good quality but most the people who were using it were complaining of viruses and stuff.

Hence I said Napster is redundant. Its done its business but Limewire and Kazaa became far more popular and dangerous

?

Kazaa and limewire aren't any more or less 'responsible' for file sharing than Napster. The fact that Napster was only for file sharing music is irrelevant. The fact that Napster got their tits sued off is irrelevant. What is relevant is that they're all P2P software and Napster marked the advent of that trend. But to say "I blame kazaa and limewire!" is just kinda stupid. Were those apps the start of piracy? Hell no. Did they make it easier to share files? Sure, in as much as every successive file sharing method makes it a little easier. It's not a terribly profound statement. Like I said before, you might as well say What you really mean to say is "Advancing technology makes it easier to pirate music!" which, let's face it, is a pretty fucking obvious statement. Pretty much like everything you've said so far in this thread. I'm not even sure why I'm humouring you. I guess I just like pointing out that you're kinda dim and everything you've had to say so far is no more useful than me mocking the shit out of you.

[xpandnz]

you really are mr know it all dude which is not a bad thing.

it just means that if i want a healthy debate with someone to get educated or to hear what someone else thinks, and it ends up being with you, that at the same time i keep getting put down with your use of name calling and stuff.

shot for being nice

you must be CCS right?

[[WanG] Wandarah]

You're a nice, slow, guy.

[Thomas Meatball]

Originally Posted by xpandnz

you really are mr know it all dude which is not a bad thing.

I'm not a know-it-all. I just know more than you. And I didn't even have to study Popular Music!

it just means that if i want a healthy debate with someone to get educated or to hear what someone else thinks, and it ends up being with you, that at the same time i keep getting put down with your use of name calling and stuff.

Your English is so poor that I'm not entirely sure what you're saying. At seems a little like you're bemoaning that fact that I'm giving you shit for having nothing intelligent to say. Either way, so fucking what?

you must be CCS right?

Took you long enough!

[xpandnz]

ah well

[Thomas Meatball]

and?

[xpandnz]

i give up dude.

you obviously hate me for some reason.

[xpandnz]

i give up dude.

you obviously hate me for some reason. im always the one you make fun of and nit pick at and im actually really sick of it.

nzgames is a cool place to talk but when there are morons like yourself who think they are bigger and know more then everyone else then it is not a fun place to discuss. sure i could turn on ignore, but knowing some twat is probably using me as their main canon fodder to show how witty and smart they are is not very nice.

there are different ways we see things, not just the CCS Thomas Meatball way and the sooner you understand that the sooner you and i can get along.

i could handle it for most the time but now, its getting beyond a joke.

[crocos]

xpandnz: If he really offends you, put him on ignore.

Personally I like it when he rips me a new one. MORE! MORE@@#@!!~!!

Originally Posted by Warrick

This thread is so awesome. I wish we had more threads like it.

<shudder> be careful - very careful - what you wish for.

[Fx.]

ccs/thomas rips into anyone that makes a statement he disagrees with, i dont think he has favourites!

[Thomas Meatball]

Originally Posted by xpandnz

i give up dude.

you obviously hate me for some reason. im always the one you make fun of and nit pick at and im actually really sick of it.

nzgames is a cool place to talk but when there are morons like yourself who think they are bigger and know more then everyone else then it is not a fun place to discuss. sure i could turn on ignore, but knowing some twat is probably using me as their main canon fodder to show how witty and smart they are is not very nice.

there are different ways we see things, not just the CCS Thomas Meatball way and the sooner you understand that the sooner you and i can get along.

i could handle it for most the time but now, its getting beyond a joke.

WAAAAAH! It's not fair! xpands, the problem is that you've nothing intelligent to say whatsoever. The things you've offered up are completely brainless and when I give you something to talk about you've got nothing intelligent to say in return so you just focus on my delivery. This isn't a place for sooks. I suggest you harden up.

BTW, I'm not interested in 'getting along' with you. I don't want to be your friend. It's not like there's a simple difference in opinion here. It's that you don't have anything to say.

Originally Posted by Fx.

ccs/thomas rips into anyone that makes a statement he disagrees with, i dont think he has favourites!

No, that's not true. I don't rip into people who disagree with me, I rip into people who are stupid.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by Fx.

ccs/thomas rips into anyone that makes a statement he disagrees with, i dont think he has favourites!

The dude is obviously quite miserable. I figure he either takes it out on us or bashes his wife & kids. I don't know his family but I guess I can take some abuse if it means they'll get less battered. In other words if he's not on here lashing out, putting others down so he feels important then someone in the real world could get damaged or killed.

[Thomas Meatball]

You also are particularly stupid.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by Thomas Meatball

You also are particularly stupid.

You don't know me. Biff is nothing more than a made up character on a forum, an alter ego to entertain myself. I can tell you're real though, no one could possibly create such an imaginary douche bag without actually being one.

[Reformed_Quint]

Originally Posted by Biff

You don't know me. Biff is nothing more than a made up character on a forum, an alter ego to entertain myself. I can tell you're real though, no one could possibly create such an imaginary douche bag without actually being one.

Lol, pot, kettle, black?

[xpandnz]

Originally Posted by Thomas Meatball

No, that's not true. I don't rip into people who disagree with me, I rip into people who are stupid.

so you pick on the weak to make yourself feel stronger.

awesome bro. love your style

[Biff]

Originally Posted by Reformed_Quint

Lol, pot, kettle, black?

I don't recall biff attacking and bullying folks constantly. Although he is known to get a bit testy around christians and homeopaths..

[Reformed_Quint]

no one could possibly create such an imaginary douche bag without actually being one.

No one get it? no?

[?>Superman]

This thread needs a cEvin picture tbh.

[Thomas Meatball]

Originally Posted by xpandnz

so you pick on the weak to make yourself feel stronger.

awesome bro. love your style

No, I pick on the stupid because it's fun.

Originally Posted by Biff

I don't recall biff attacking and bullying folks constantly. Although he is known to get a bit testy around christians and homeopaths..

Attacking and bullying? I think you're exaggerating a bit there. Anyways, you seem to think that being mean to people on the internet is the only thing that qualifies someone as a douche, whereas constantly posting retarded threads about paranoiac bullshit is not douchey. Hmm... Nah, I'm think you're stupid AND a douche. Have you noticed how everyone thinks you're a joke?


Well fuck me. Are internet dummies getting markedly more sensitive these days? It didn't take much to make xpandz break down and cry and he's already done a swansong exit once before only to join the boomerang club and come right back to us. I barely said anything to Biff and he's already complaining. I remember in the old days when you called someone a cunt, they'd call you a cunt right make. It took a lot to make someone sob like a little girl. If you argued with someone about what they're saying, they'd argue back with some counterpoints. Now it's all "You're being mean to me! I don't want to talk anymore! Why can't we just be friends!"

I dunno. Kids are just too soft these days.

[Rep]

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4829/125/

Major ACTA Leak: Internet and Civil Enforcement Chapters With Country Positions



Monday March 01, 2010
On the heels of the leak of various country positions on ACTA transparency, today an even bigger leak has hit the Internet. A new European Union document prepared several weeks ago canvasses the Internet and Civil Enforcement chapters, disclosing in complete detail the proposals from the U.S., the counter-proposals from the EU, Japan, and other ACTA participants. The 44-page document also highlights specific concerns of individual countries on a wide range of issues including ISP liability, anti-circumvention rules, and the scope of the treaty. This is probably the most significant leak to-date since it goes even beyond the transparency debate by including specific country positions and proposals.

The document highlights significant disagreement on a range of issues. For example, on the issue of anti-circumvention legislation and access controls, the U.S. wants it included per the DCMA, but many other countries, including the EU, Japan, and New Zealand do not, noting that the WIPO Internet treaties do not require it.

A brief summary of the key findings are posted below, but much more study is needed.

Internet Enforcement Chapter


* Canada has expressed concern with the title of the chapter ("Special Measures Related to Technological Enforcement Means and the Internet") and the substance of the chapter
* On the ISP safe harbour chapter, the leak identifies three proposals (consistent with an earlier NZ comment). In addition to the U.S. proposal that was leaked earlier, there is a Japanese proposal and one from the EU. Moreover, many countries have raised specific issues about the U.S. language. For example, New Zealand notes that the safe harbour appears to cover Information Location Tool providers (ie. search engines), but that it wonders why there is a concern of liability to begin with.
* Japan's alternative proposal calls for ISP liability based on knowledge of infringement. It states that there may be liability if it is technically possible to prevent the infringement and the provider "knows or there is reasonable ground to know" that infringement is occurring. There are additional provisions on the inclusion of a notice system and industry cooperation.
* With respect to the requirement of an ISP policy that could include three strikes as a pre-requisite for qualifying for the safe harbour, New Zealand is opposed to the condition altogether. Meanwhile, Japan notes that its law does not contain a policy requirement and it would have to consider whether it can agree to that requirement.
* On the implementation of notice-and-takedown, Canada has noted that the relationship between third party liability and ISP limitation of liability is unclear.
* On the anti-circumvention rules, which involves a U.S. attempt to implement a global DMCA, the EU would like to exclude access controls from the ambit of the provision. They are not alone - New Zealand opposes their inclusion and Japan also takes the position that access controls are not required by the WIPO Internet treaties and is apparently concerned about the implications for its domestic law. There is no reference to a Canadian position, despite the fact that this goes beyond current Canadian law.

Civil Enforcement Chapter

* the U.S., Japan, and the European Union want the civil enforcement powers to extend to any intellectual property right. Canada, Singapore, and New Zealand seek a more limited treaty that covers only copyright and trademarks.
* the EU is seeking injunctive relief powers against intermediaries whose services are used by a third party to infringe an IP right. The EU is alone in focusing on intermediary injunctions.
* on statutory damages, the EU seeks to limit damages to actual damages, while the U.S. is proposing statutory damages. There is also dispute on the scope of the IP rights (all vs. just copyright and trademark). Canada and NZ also want to limit or exclude damages in certain special cass.
* on the disclosure of information related to investigations, the U.S. is pushing for very broad language, while the E.U. wants to limit with specific kinds of information (and Canada has proposed further limiting language).

[The Edge]

Originally Posted by Biff

Biff is nothing more than a made up character on a forum, an alter ego to entertain myself.

As was Hannibal, and Ross...how many alter egos do you have here?

[fidgit]

Originally Posted by leaky leaky leak

* With respect to the requirement of an ISP policy that could include three strikes as a pre-requisite for qualifying for the safe harbour, New Zealand is opposed to the condition altogether. Meanwhile, Japan notes that its law does not contain a policy requirement and it would have to consider whether it can agree to that requirement.

lol wtf, we're about to make exactly this a law... Perhaps they're opposed because they want to make it law rather than ISP policy? On face value, that appears to be a bit of an about face. Perhaps the policy debators involved in the ACTA debate aren't keeping tabs on what's happening back home.

Originally Posted by leaky copyright negotiation is leaky

* on statutory damages, the EU seeks to limit damages to actual damages, while the U.S. is proposing statutory damages. There is also dispute on the scope of the IP rights (all vs. just copyright and trademark). Canada and NZ also want to limit or exclude damages in certain special cass.

This is exactly what I fear the local law change will fuck up. Damages must be based on actual damage. IANAL, but am 99% sure sentences must reflect the nature of the crime. Charging someone a statutory $10,000 per song is horseshit when there is absolutely no way they've been responsible for causing that kind of loss (even in imaginary "every download is a $1.29 song on itunes RIAA" land)

[fidgit]

Originally Posted by The Edge

As was Hannibal, and Ross...how many alter egos do you have here?

wait Biff is Hannibal? I had no idea. He was the real paranoid one yeah? Or was that part of the alter ego.

[Rep]

http://www.internetnz.net.nz/media/m...ta-negotiators


InternetNZ to take public message to ACTA negotiators

Media Release - 2 March 2010 - InternetNZ (Internet New Zealand Inc) will assist the public in voicing its concerns about the controversial international Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA) through an open conference to be held next month in Wellington, New Zealand.

“We’re going to give the public the chance to have their say - in contrast to the secrecy of the negotiation process,” says Jordan Carter, InternetNZ Policy Director.

PublicACTA will be held on Saturday, 10 April 2010, two days ahead of Round 8 of the ACTA negotiations on 12-16 April in Wellington. The outputs of PublicACTA will be provided to the New Zealand government negotiators.

PublicACTA will be an open and public opportunity for people to critique the known and likely content of the ACTA proposals, providing a counterpoint to the secrecy of the negotiations.

“These plurilateral negotiations appear to extend well beyond the area of trade and physical counterfeiting to potentially cover non-commercial infringement of copyright material by ordinary citizens and digital rights management,” Carter says.

Despite the high level of secrecy surrounding the process, some of the proposals have leaked and demonstrate cause for concern.

"ACTA could affect everyone's rights on the Internet. Proposals from some countries seek to go beyond New Zealand's current public position. It is therefore very important that there is a forum for public discussion," says Carter.

"The aim of PublicACTA is to raise the public’s concerns, seek improvements to the Agreement, and provide an opportunity for people to connect and discuss the issues. The output will be an agreed statement that the public and interested organisations can sign up to, to be delivered to New Zealand Government negotiators and politicians."

The New Zealand Government today called for submissions on ACTA identifying the dates of the negotiations and outlining some specific areas they would like feedback on. InternetNZ will also submit on that document, which has a deadline of 31 March 2010.

Details of the programme of and high profile international guests at PublicACTA will be provided in coming days.

For more information contact:

Jordan Carter
Policy Director, InternetNZ
021 442 649
[email protected]

[Lightspeed]

Shit, that's awesome.

Originally Posted by Thomas Meatball

Kazaa and limewire aren't any more or less 'responsible' for file sharing than Napster....

I pretty much agree with most of what you have to say here. Well, the technology stuff anyhow.

One of the things I was thinking, is if Copyright doesn't exist, at least as it does, then all use would be fair use. I think this would enhance creativity, enabling people to refine existing ideas and showing this off without worrying about being sued, or how much it might cost you.

For example, if a movie comes out and you like the idea but you think it's poorly executed, if you have the support, as individuals and organisations inevitably will, you could retell the story as you liked.

[xpandnz]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

One of the things I was thinking, is if Copyright doesn't exist, at least as it does, then all use would be fair use. I think this would enhance creativity, enabling people to refine existing ideas and showing this off without worrying about being sued, or how much it might cost you.

For example, if a movie comes out and you like the idea but you think it's poorly executed, if you have the support, as individuals and organisations inevitably will, you could retell the story as you liked.

Interesting idea. I wonder how a movie maker like David Lynch would feel about it. He makes weird films that people may not understand and does so to make the viewer work it out.

[Lightspeed]

True. But you get to choose what you watch and don't watch.

The idea isn't without flaws I'm sure, but I think it's something worth thinking about.

[Thomas Meatball]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

I pretty much agree with most of what you have to say here. Well, the technology stuff anyhow.

You have just been taught Popular Music 101! Give me tuition fees.

For example, if a movie comes out and you like the idea but you think it's poorly executed, if you have the support, as individuals and organisations inevitably will, you could retell the story as you liked.

You don't think it's kinda lame that it would allow people to make money off someone else's idea?

[Lightspeed]

Who says they'll make money?

[Thomas Meatball]

Who says they won't?

[Lightspeed]

It doesn't seem feasible.

If no one has to pay for media because there is no copyright, who's making money?

[Thomas Meatball]

Set up a donations page. "If you like the way I re-edited Star Wars, toss me a few bucks for my effort."

That'd be lame. It takes away the incentive to create in the first place.

[Lightspeed]

So they're being tossed a few bucks for their re-editing. Not for the idea of Star Wars.

Humans don't need an incentive to create. It is who we are.

[Thomas Meatball]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

So they're being tossed a few bucks for their re-editing. Not for the idea of Star Wars.

So? If I make a movie, why should some nerdy fuck on the internet be able to fuck with my movie and make money from my work?

Humans don't need an incentive to create. It is who we are.

Money always comes into it. How often do you see artists giving away their work for free? Not often.

[Lightspeed]

Why should someone be prevented from producing something the rest of society will benefit from? Why should we prevent the creation of something many would enjoy so one can become richer?

Money? There is nothing about money that is human. If a great calamity were to befall us, our society and culture dust, those people that remain and survive would still make music. Because to be human is to create.

[Thomas Meatball]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Why should someone be prevented from producing something the rest of society will benefit from? Why should we prevent the creation of something many would enjoy so one can become richer?

Making money from someone else's talent isn't exactly a benefit to society. Anyways, it's a nice idea and all, y'know, if you wanted to get stoned and sit around shooting the shit, but it's just not realistic. If people wanted it to happen, it could happen that way right now. But I don't see people giving their shit away for free. I wonder why...

Money? There is nothing about money that is human. If a great calamity were to befall us, our society and culture dust, those people that remain and survive would still make music. Because to be human is to create.

That's real peachy. But here and now in reality, money comes into it.

[xpandnz]

I do not make money and I still write music. Sure it would be nice to make some money off of it but I do not go into it thinking about the dollars.

NIN and Radiohead gave away their albums for free as you know.

Donations page for Radiohead or go buy the album in store for NIN. You could also buy the Radiohead album too which I did.