co-governance

[xor]

Legends!

[fixed_truth]

Aren't they a licensed early childhood education service & free to structure their decision making how they see fit?

Also here's some background to the issue

'There is quite an uproar': Playcentres divided over plan to centralise resources

[Lightspeed]

Sophisticated early childhood education is perhaps the low hanging fruit we're missing out on the most as a society. It's so disappointing.

[Ab]

Stop posting things I wholeheartedly agree with.

[xor]

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/...e-doesnt-work/

Originally Posted by xor

good luck with the whole ethno nationalism thing. I believe it'll work out really well having non-elected people governing critical aspects of the country.

Co-governance = no accountability to New Zealanders

[fixed_truth]

They're replacing run down huts, calm down.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018864399

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by xor

Co-governance = no accountability to New Zealanders

That's the fear isn't it. Some Maori might start enjoying the impunity usually reserved for rich colonisers.

[xor]

Yeah, letting pests run rampant and denying kiwis access to lake Waikaremoana is pretty shitty thing to do. Unchecked and unaccounted for power last time i checked leads to rot.

I'm not sure what a coloniser is in the context of the year 2022, sorry.

[Lightspeed]

Well, one trait of a coloniser is they have both an acute and a numb sense of justice, depending on who might be getting away with it.

[xor]

Ah ok, i thought it was where a country that sends settlers to a place and establishes political control over it. Silly me

[Lightspeed]

It's more unfortunate than silly if that's the limit of your knowledge.

Like, what, you think that a country is colonised, and then that's it? You have a new country, the past is wiped away? You've just written off complaints by the colonised? You expect them to accept their situation as colonised subjects and let us get on with it?

And you're here to complain about injustice?

[xor]

You cannae serve two masters yee fool

[Lightspeed]

FREEDOM! (For me and mine, fuck you.)

[_indigo1]

Lightspeed your framing is sickening.
It's just as bad faith, judgemental, and violent (in woke terms) as racism is.

Nobody here is a coloniser.
Maybe there are some who emigrated here in their lifetime - but the vast majority were born here.

Honestly it makes me sick to read.
And that is without a single ounce of dismissal to the plight of those descended from the indigenous.

[Lightspeed]

I'll take the framing that most closely fits everyone's experience, siding with the more vulnerable parties where there is disagreement.

You might be able to cook up a frame where no one is a coloniser, but only by sidelining the experience of a good volume of people whose plight you're apparently concerned with.

I wonder if you have any sense of what people who make an academic practice of understanding colonisation think.

[xor]

If i'm a coloniser, then so is Simon and all his family who live in Australia. Your logic is flawed.

[Lightspeed]

This isn't my logic, I haven't done nearly enough work to develop the kind of understanding I have. I benefit from the knowledge others have worked hard to produce.

Yeah, colonisation, the history of NZ is a complex mess. I've made my thoughts on that clear many times. Things can't be laid out all neat and tidy, with all boxes checked, all warnings cleared. Even if we all shared the same interests.

Colonisation is at the heart of these changes we're seeing. If we're talking about injustice in this context then we're talking about colonisation. It can't be excluded, the only reason to is to privilege an already privileged agenda.

[_indigo1]

Colonisation and coloniser are completely different.
Talking about the reverberations of colonisation on a society is one thing.
Labelling a section of society as coloniser based on their ancestry and then making claims about their traits is not only reductionist, it's the same kind stereotyping that feeds into racism.
I don't care where it comes from.

Honestly, on a more personal opining with regard to your deference to academia, especially social sciences; there are large amounts of some dimensions of academics who have their heads up their own arses and love to snort their own shit and call it empirical data.

I believe in science. But there is a sect of academia who skate the line between science and dogma.

[Lightspeed]

That's not what I'm doing. I'm not labelling people, I'm labelling phenomena that exists amongst people. I'm making claims about us, not them. There is no them. In some regards we're all coloniser and colonised. Colonisation isn't simply something one group did to another, it's a phenomenon that's the result of phenomena, none of which can be absolutely strictly defined but clearly exist and impact upon our lives.

There is so much sound writing on the subject, yet you're approaching this from a point of proud ignorance. What do you expect people to make of that?

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by _indigo1

Nobody here is a coloniser.
Maybe there are some who emigrated here in their lifetime - but the vast majority were born here.

I'd say that there's decedents of colonisers, and we live under a colonial system. That this colonial ideology has systematically tried to erase Maori ideology while normalising itself. That today we still feel the ripples of colonisation and so one group does better in society than the other.

Hence why decolonization.

[_indigo1]

Lightspeed: I'm not getting drawn into a bullshit debate with you about it - the comments required being called out for the bullshit they are at a basic level regardless of whatever papers you want to read. That is done.

fixed: yep.

[Lightspeed]

It'd only be a bullshit debate if you're bringing bullshit.

NZ is built on coloniser values. There's a reason why the government is working on these changes and it's not because there's a popular base of people to satisfy, like those demanding punishments right now.

The work is being done because this is a democracy and a democracy cares for everyone in the community, not just the largest voting bloc.

I don't doubt there are problems with the legislation, but we're not hearing much of that. It's largely just populous nonsense like calling for "one New Zealand" (i.e. white colonial New Zealand).

[Lightspeed]

I'll point out we're not striving to be a legitimate democracy just cause that's a nice thing to be. If we want to access global resources in a legitimate manner, we have to meet the expectations of legitimacy. A demand that's currently placed on all countries is to address historic injustices, as evidenced by the diverse efforts around the world to do just that.

[crocos]

Originally Posted by xor

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/...e-doesnt-work/



Co-governance = no accountability to New Zealanders

I saw HDpA and closed the article. Really xor, I expected better. But then newstalk, lol.

[crocos]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

They're replacing run down huts, calm down.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018864399

Bring your tents ... sleep under the stars!

Yeeeeeah. Frankly they've not sorted what they're being replaced with, the "temporary accommodation" is self-supplied for the majority of sites, and they're ripping them down going into the busiest time of year.

While I get why wanting modern accommodations to broaden the appeal AKA increase tourism revenue, they're also treating the current users like feces on the bottom of their shoes.

[DrTiTus]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

I'll point out we're not striving to be a legitimate democracy

Well that's good, because giving a handful of Maori veto rights against overwhelming majorities looks nothing like a "legitimate democracy".

A demand that's currently placed on all countries is to address historic injustices, as evidenced by the diverse efforts around the world to do just that.

Who is placing these demands on countries? Is it the organ harvesting Chinese that starved millions in their past? The beheading women-oppressing Saudis? The Indian slaughtering slave-nation of USA? The thieves of African resources known as the French? The child labouring African nation? Or is it just dumb old New Zealand doing stupid things because some self-interested idiot wants a promotion at one of these unelected international organizations "placing demands" on countries to appear virtuous, because if we do things like tax our farmers then surely China will stop burning coal, after seeing how great our country has become by crippling ourselves.

You have lofty ideals - which is admirable, I'm not saying you're wrong for having them - but you seem to very optimistic about a corrupt and inevitably unfair world, where power rules, not "legitimacy".

If "legitimacy" ruled the world, the CIA wouldn't be going round coup-ing everyone and changing things to suit themselves. And we wouldn't tolerate it. We wouldn't tolerate illegal wars. We wouldn't tolerate corporate lobbying and huge donations to political parties, and companies that committed crimes or broke the law would be shut down, not simply given small fines that are less than the profit they made. Legitimacy doesn't run the world - giving people money does. That's how shit gets done. Payoffs.

Here we are pretending that we can just be a nice little country and heal the world by letting Maori run the show to shut them up. To think that people will stop trading with us because some Maori are left behind in our society is ridiculous. Some white people are left behind too. The only thing that matters when trading with people is whether it's a deal that makes good financial sense. That's why we cozy up to the Chinese - they buy our milk powder. That's why we deal with the US - they offer us some sort of protection that we'd otherwise have to fund ourselves.

Legitimacy is like equality: it doesn't exist.

[DrTiTus]

Civil rights used to be about treating everyone the same. But today some people are so used to special treatment that equal treatment is considered to be discrimination.
- Thomas Sowell

[xor]

More bullshit to baffle brains. What a train wreck.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/a-mist...GDHE4XV3KVMSQ/

[Ab]

The LEAST cynical interpretation is that Jacinda has been left out of the loop and didn’t actually know what the legislation would do. While campaigning for it.