NZGames.com Forums
Register FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Go Back   NZGames.com Forums > General > Open Discussion > Politics
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 17th March 2009, 14:17     #41
StN
I have detailed files
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
That's what I was getting at when I said that the amount of money they'd get is proportional to the number of motorists in that region. As you say, Fiordland would be fucked. So - under a regional petrol tax scheme, who would help out Fiordland?
Maybe Vodaphone could top them up?
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 14:17     #42
The Edge
 
Even worse than Fiordland, the West Coast has a low population spread out over a large area (the distance from Auckland to Wellington), so they have more roads than Fiordland, yet fare worse as the area covered is larger, IIRC.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 14:21     #43
caffiend
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Edge
An issue with a regional fuel tax is the residents who live on the very fringes of an area; think of someone on the Kapiti Coast or the Hibiscus Coast or Pukekohe. If you live in Dairy Flat, you're going to drive to Orewa to fill up, not Albany, so you avoid paying the tax altogether.

By comparison for Wellington, people between Pukerua Bay and Paekakariki would probably drive to Paekakariki to avoid paying extra for fuel (instead of getting it locally or in Porirua), and not contribute anything to the regional fuel tax at all.

A nationwide fuel tax is the best way, IMO...I'm just disappointed to hear that the train station upgrades and integrated ticketing probably won't happen now
The regions for the Fuel Tax were huge though - Wellington 'Region' includes all of those Wellington-area locations you listed. You seem to be thinking about Local Authorities level. Go here for a map of NZ 'Regions' from a government administration perspective.

CCS - I was also wrong to single out Fiordland actually; looking at the above map they'd be covered by a 'Southland' regional tax.
__________________
If ignorance is bliss, why is everyone so unhappy these days?
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 14:21     #44
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Edge
An issue with a regional fuel tax is the residents who live on the very fringes of an area; think of someone on the Kapiti Coast or the Hibiscus Coast or Pukekohe. If you live in Dairy Flat, you're going to drive to Orewa to fill up, not Albany, so you avoid paying the tax altogether.

By comparison for Wellington, people between Pukerua Bay and Paekakariki would probably drive to Paekakariki to avoid paying extra for fuel (instead of getting it locally or in Porirua), and not contribute anything to the regional fuel tax at all.
I'd have to go all Mad Max, weld some steel panels to my Integra and do some highway raids. Run some cars off the road, take their petrol. S'all good!
__________________
I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner?
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 14:23     #45
Reformed_Quint
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoSo
Good call CCS. Watch for the hicks from the sticks moaning about it on the news all week.
I think thats what fucks us 'hicks' off the most.

Your cocky attitude. BAH aucklanders.

Toll roads are the way to go me thinks.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 14:24     #46
Hory
 
You seem to conflating funding of all transport projects with this special regional tax which was meant to allow regional councils to set their own petrol taxes for special projects in their region.
By nationalising the tax this takes control of these projects away from regional government and back to central government.

Based on the history of NZ transport funding I doubt that central government in Wellington is going to have the same concern about Auckland's transport network than the regional government in Auckland.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 14:26     #47
caffiend
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hory
Based on the history of NZ transport funding I doubt that central government in Wellington is going to have the same concern about Auckland's transport network than the regional government in Auckland.
I disagree with you there. National is all about assisting large infrastructure companies; most of which are based in Auckland. So expect big roading civils projects to be awarded mostly in the top third of the North Island.
__________________
If ignorance is bliss, why is everyone so unhappy these days?
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 14:29     #48
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by caffiend
CCS - I was also wrong to single out Fiordland actually; looking at the above map they'd be covered by a 'Southland' regional tax.
Sure, going by that map. But we still don't know the number of motorists in those regions and how much money could be gathered from their tax. You'd need some serious statistics and some time to sit down and work it all out so that the motorists in a region are able to fund their needs.

Inevitably there are some regions who will fall short or will always be limited by the money they can extract from the petrol tax. Although you could make a reasonable argument for how a regional petrol tax would work, I just don't think it's really feasible nor practical. Good on paper maybe, not so good in practice.

I very much believe that all the petrol tax from around the country should go into a pool from which the country's roading and public transport needs can be met. The governement can choose to add money to this and there can be negotiation with councils to help fund local projects - which is, AFAIK how it's done at the moment.

What I'm not certain about is what happens to the money from the petrol tax we're already paying. Where does that go?
__________________
I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner?
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 14:34     #49
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hory
You seem to conflating funding of all transport projects with this special regional tax which was meant to allow regional councils to set their own petrol taxes for special projects in their region.
Possibly I am. And whilst it makes sense - on the surface - to charge Aucklanders more petrol tax for a special project like electrifying rail, I think 9.5 cents is pretty fucking extreme. My problem is when a small region has some special project but cannot fund that project with a local region petrol tax because there just isn't enough money. They either crank the up the tax for their region by whatever the shortfall is, which for all anyone knows could be an extra 70 cent tax increase; or they get extra money allocated by the government. That's when I say "Why the fuck should my money pay for some hick town? I'm an Aucklander, I've already paid my share for my own special project!"
__________________
I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner?
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 14:38     #50
Dazza
 
So what does the government get out of funding the electric rail? shares? ticket price setting rights? I don't mind if government funds projects like this, but if all it is doing is benefitting private corporations with balant disregard for the consumer and the longterm impacts on New Zealand; then count me out.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 14:39     #51
Reformed_Quint
 
Wouldn't it be a project for kiwirail, which the govt now owns?
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 14:40     #52
caffiend
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
Sure, going by that map. But we still don't know the number of motorists in those regions and how much money could be gathered from their tax. You'd need some serious statistics and some time to sit down and work it all out so that the motorists in a region are able to fund their needs.
Under Labour there were several boffins who work for the MoT who were doing exactly this, for many months. Our company works with the MoT (they're one of my key accounts), so I've had some direct contact with these people - they've effectively had all their hard work shelved by the change of government. These people (who are research scientists I might add - not necessarily a good thing) were pretty convinced they'd worked out a good model, so are actually quite gutted at the change. They also found out by seeing the front page of the Dominion the other day...
__________________
If ignorance is bliss, why is everyone so unhappy these days?
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 14:58     #53
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Bad luck for them. I blame the economy. I still think it's a better and more fair system to have special projects funded on a case by case basis by the government and the local council concerned. Like I say, I'm on the North Shore, I get no benefit from an electrified rail in some other part of Auckland by I would still be subjected to the petrol tax increase of up to 9.5 cents. Why should I pay for someone elses railway?
__________________
I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner?
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 15:03     #54
ZoSo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed_Quint
I think thats what fucks us 'hicks' off the most.

Your cocky attitude. BAH aucklanders.

Toll roads are the way to go me thinks.
I only say that as a windup cause of the dumbass Jafa comments and "bluddy fucken aucklanders" as ccs put it I actually like the rest of the country, as (IMO) most Aucklanders do. It's the sticks that hates Auckland non-stop as a scape-goat for all their ills, for some fucked up reason.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 15:38     #55
blynk
 
I think a percent of each regions petrol tax should go to that regions roading. Lets say 75%.
The other 25% is pooled where is assigned as neccessary. If the West Coast needs more to for the roads then it goes there, if Auckland needs it, it goes there.

What I would be interested in is that Auckland is 25-33% of NZs Population, what is the % of petrol tax comes from Auckland. Is the ratio the same, or is it bigger. Does Auckland actually produce 50% of the petrol tax?
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 17:10     #56
Dusty
 
From a personal level - I'm worried. Very worried.

From what I hear, they've just pulled funding that was going to (partly) build the Otago Institute of Design. This funding was confirmed by the last government, with all t's crossed and i's dotted. However - due to the current economic state, this new government has turned around and said, "Hang on a second, actually - what they others guys said, scratch that...we're gonna probably pull the plug on you".
This has put both the Otago Polytech, and the Otago University into quite a bit of a state. As the site it was to be built on was purchased by the UoO, with the development of the institute to paid for partly by the OP (and the rest from government funding).
This Design Institute was to be the largest and most comprehensive in Australasia (essentially - the 'go to' place for design in NZ).
What this has resulted in, is wasted money (The UoO spent a fair bit of penny from what I understand on this site), wasted resources (planners, developers, time, energy which equates to wages and salary), and yet another building to become derelict in Dunedin (which currently sits on the site intended for the OIoD campus).
What that means for designers (be it product, fashion, media, advertising, marketing...etc etc etc) is that they will be forced to look (as usual) overseas for jobs or study.
This isn't creating business - it's devaluing it.
And that's the "Key" word here (pun intended) - businesses are devalued under National.

What I've seen so far is National seem more interested in (quiet feebly) softening the blow for those who have lost their jobs - or inevitably will. Rather than creating new jobs and business (unless your in Auckland, which you can then work building your frickin roads).

We have a gaping wound, which National are trying to fix with a sticky plaster.

There's more focus on pointing out the previous Governments foibles, because in actual fact, Key is going "WTF do we do guys??".
I mean seriously, you can see it in his face.


He really has no clue WTH is going on...

"Hi, I'm John Key, leader of the National party - and I'm dead serious"


"Now, relax, don't get yourselves all worked up over this here 'econamic erupshun'. Me 'n ol 'Billy Ing' will sort it out"


Billy Ing: "Hey! How yoo doin'?"


"Now, I know how to stimulate an economy - if you know what I mean"


"Also, very recently - I took part in a staring match with the British PM.....ol' wassisname. I totally kicked his ass (secretly, I was trying really hard to kill him with my eye lasers)"


"Heh...heh...heh....you guys totally look the same..."

Last edited by Dusty : 17th March 2009 at 17:14.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 17:24     #57
chubby
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hory
As a marketing campaign it's going well, lots of meaningless distractions to give people the impression of good strong governance, e.g "crushing boyracer's cars", trademe auctions, dancing with drag queens, the "job" summit and bringing back titular honours.

On the actual stuff that matters, it's all bad and it's going to get worse.
on your team Mr.
__________________
"Take four red capsules, in ten minutes-take two more. Help is on the way."
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 18:25     #58
Sgt Seb
Up Unt At Dem!
 
What I love is that this National government is surrounded by immense pressure to 'do something' about this economic crisis rather than adopting a laissez-faire approach which is probably their inclination. All the big players like the US, China, Germany and the UK are adopting a hands on Keynesian approach and so National is pretty much being forced to do the same. E.g. Key saying the government may have to bail out companies, and convening job summits with industry etc. Mwaha its like the government hasn't changed at all

In this kind of economic climate and because National wants to hold the centre ground I'm fairly confident there won't be any radical right wing policies in the next three years...yay.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 18:36     #59
Torka
 
Quote:
a laissez-faire approach which is probably their inclination.
Can't agree that that would be their inclination at all. I don't think a party that was that economically liberal could be elected here (or almost anywhere).
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 19:09     #60
chubby
 
^^ the last 30 years of NZ economic policy says you are wrong.
despite our medias harping on about our left-wing, interventionist governments- the NZ economy is one of the most unregulated and non-protectionist structures in the world.
the lies have been proudly brought to you by the same cockbites responsible for the "aussies pay less tax, and have better public service" crowd.
dont believe the hype chap.
__________________
"Take four red capsules, in ten minutes-take two more. Help is on the way."
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 19:14     #61
Hory
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Seb
In this kind of economic climate and because National wants to hold the centre ground I'm fairly confident there won't be any radical right wing policies in the next three years...yay.
Have you read the Wall Street Journal Article?
Quote:
That idea -- growing a nation out of recession by improving productivity -- puts Mr. Key and his conservative National Party at odds with Washington, Tokyo and Canberra. Those capitals are rolling out billions of dollars in stimulus packages -- with taxpayers' money -- to try to prop up growth. That's "risky," Mr. Key says. "You've saddled future generations with an enormous amount of debt that then they have to repay," he explains. "There is actually a limit to what governments can do."
...

Mr. Key is returning the country to a formula for prosperity that's worked in the past. As in Britain, the U.S. and Australia in the 1980s, New Zealand's government implemented a wide-ranging program of economic liberalization, including deep reductions in tariffs and subsidies, and privatization of state-run industries. The plan, nicknamed "Rogernomics" after then-Finance Minister (now Sir) Roger Douglas, was akin to Reaganomics, and the island nation grew smartly.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 19:34     #62
chubby
 
Laugh

^^^ yeah-loved that one.
ahhh.. mr Key.. he's all things to all men.*flutter*
__________________
"Take four red capsules, in ten minutes-take two more. Help is on the way."
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 19:52     #63
Torka
 
Quote:
^^ the last 30 years of NZ economic policy says you are wrong.
The last 30 years of NZ economic policy has been Laissez-faire? That's ridiculous.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 20:07     #64
chubby
 
guy, im not interested in a standard NZG dictionary definition based argument.
i am saying that compared to other real world economys,successive govt's have left us with our arses hanging out on the world stage, to be fondled, pinched, or sold-depending on the pretty much unregulated whim of whomsoever has the hard currency to show an interest.
is that ridiculous?
__________________
"Take four red capsules, in ten minutes-take two more. Help is on the way."
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 20:14     #65
Torka
 
No, it isn't. It also doesn't contradict anything I said.

You seem to have read me saying National doesn't support laissez-faire economics as me saying "NZ companies get taxed way too much and our govenrment makes it hard to do business with us", and I have no idea how.

Last edited by Torka : 17th March 2009 at 20:15.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 20:26     #66
Sgt Seb
Up Unt At Dem!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hory
Have you read the Wall Street Journal Article?
True but it seems he's responding to that hilariously right-wing journalist. I like this bit:

Quote:
Over the past nine years, Helen Clark's left-wing Labour government rode the global economic expansion and used the revenue surge to expand government welfare programs, renationalize industries, and embrace causes like global warming. As a result, the economy stagnated while Australia took off.
lol

Nothing in that article really worries me. We already knew National was going to cut taxes so no surprises there.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 20:36     #67
chubby
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torka
No, it isn't. It also doesn't contradict anything I said.

You seem to have read me saying National doesn't support laissez-faire economics as me saying "NZ companies get taxed way too much and our govenrment makes it hard to do business with us", and I have no idea how.
umm...no. what i have read you saying is that an economically liberal govt would not be voted for here in NZ(or indeed anywhere in the world).
and as i stated, that is not correct- we have in fact had a succession of liberal,free-market espousing administrations.
for the last 30 years.
__________________
"Take four red capsules, in ten minutes-take two more. Help is on the way."
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 20:37     #68
Sgt Seb
Up Unt At Dem!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torka
Can't agree that that would be their inclination at all. I don't think a party that was that economically liberal could be elected here (or almost anywhere).
Huh? So you think National would be more inclined to intervene in the economy than Labour? I'm meaning in a relative sense I thought that was implied. Compared to ACT yes of course they are are less laissez-faire (although remember ACT is in coalition...*cry*)
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 20:39     #69
chubby
 
though i do appreciate that the Key administration are showing themselves to be keen advocates of corporate-welfare.
__________________
"Take four red capsules, in ten minutes-take two more. Help is on the way."
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 20:52     #70
Torka
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chubby
umm...no. what i have read you saying is that an economically liberal govt would not be voted for here in NZ(or indeed anywhere in the world).
A government economically liberal enough to be accurately described as "laissez-faire".

Sorry if that's too "dictionary definition" for you dude, I just gave my opinion based on my understanding of what the term means.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 20:59     #71
chubby
 
*shrug*
__________________
"Take four red capsules, in ten minutes-take two more. Help is on the way."
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 21:08     #72
?>Superman
 
lol dictionary fight
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 21:16     #73
Deadmeat
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by caffiend
I'm not suggesting ACC isn't wasteful in its current form, and it could certainly be run more efficiently
Could it?

Quote:
More rational comments have been overlooked in Smith's attacks on the corporation. A review by PricewaterhouseCoopers last year praised the corporation.

It said ACC provides broader coverage than any other scheme in the world; it returned 88 per cent of people back to work within six months (compared with 85 per cent in Australia); the cost to employers was lower than comparable private schemes overseas and its administration costs were lower.

Management expenses were at 8 per cent while Australian schemes ranged from 9 to 32 per cent. And on it goes. In every significant aspect it is performing better than any similar scheme, public or private, overseas.
From a Stuff opinion piece admittedly...
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 21:44     #74
Spink
 
Can the socialist unit go back to jerking eachother off in the elections 2008 forum, it's embarassing in open discussion.
__________________
Weak hearts I rip.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 21:48     #75
madmaxii
 
__________________
Carpe Diem
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 21:50     #76
TheBender
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
That's what I was getting at when I said that the amount of money they'd get is proportional to the number of motorists in that region. As you say, Fiordland would be fucked. So - under a regional petrol tax scheme, who would help out Fiordland?
Nothing to do with the thread, but i always liked the idea that while mowing my lawns in Wellington, I was helping pay for Akl roads. Hey, it least it made me smile....
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 22:06     #77
CCS
Stunt Pants
 
Who do you think pays for your roads? The tooth fairy?
__________________
I just want to understand this, sir. Every time a rug is micturated upon in this fair city, I have to compensate the owner?
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 22:31     #78
AKuma
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
Auckland's tax money has for years been funding the rest of the country while our roading needs were mostly put aside.

The problem with a regional petrol tax funding the electrifiying of the Auckland railway is that people on the North Shore, for example, end up funding this railway even though there's no railway on the North Shore. If Hamilton doesn't want to pay to electrify a railway that only covers part of Auckland, then why should the North Shore also help to pay it?

And really, this is the problem with regional taxes. What say Hamilton wants some totally cool public transport system... is the rest of the country going to object to paying for Hamilton's public transport? Is Dunedin going to get shitty? Probably not, because it's more fun to say "Bluddy fucken Aucklanders can pay for their own train set" than it is to say "Bluddy fucken Hamiltonians, who do they think they are?"

The only way to fairly implement a regional petrol tax would be to slice the whole country into regions and raise the petrol tax by the same amount across the board and that way everyone can pay for their own roading and public transport costs. Then we'll get rid of the pathetic "WHY SHOULD I PAY FOR 'X' CITY'S ROADS?!" nonsense.

Of course, the obvious problem with that is that the amount available to spend is proportionate to how many motorists there are in each region. A low population area might end up with bugger all money to spend. Because why should Auckland pay for roads anywhere but Auckland, right?

I think the ideal solution is no regional petrol tax anywhere. When the government wants to increase the petrol tax, it gets increased for everyone. That way everyone is paying for everyone's roading and public transport. The money gets allocated on the basis of necessity. And no more of this bullshit where money from petrol tax disappears into Michael Cullen's mysterious pile of cash which doesn't necessarily get used for roading/transport.
Well you've convinced me, very well put.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009, 23:36     #79
fidgit
Always itchy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadmeat
Could it?


From a Stuff opinion piece admittedly...
Ha you bet me to posting exactly that (though I was going to try to find the actual PWC report first, you lazy no-source-quoter guy :P)

I've obviously got a vested interest in this, but it's becoming quite clear that Nick Smith is selling bullshit, lies and propaganda to the DomPost, who are lapping it up for front page headlines because that'll sell papers, and the rest of the country's too asleep to realise what's being done to them.

Of course, "ACC ARE ACTUALLY DOING QUITE WELL, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED" doesn't make for a very good headline.


Also, given you know my boss and his irrational hatred of anything that isn't hard-right, you can imagine the field day he's been having ranting at me about ACC lately. Tempted to print these quotes as largely as I can and re-wallpaper the office...
__________________
4 7 2 3 9 8 5...1 4 2 9 7 8...14 16 22...36°
  Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2009, 06:09     #80
chubby
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS
Who do you think pays for your roads? The tooth fairy?
someone needed to say it.
__________________
"Take four red capsules, in ten minutes-take two more. Help is on the way."
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



© Copyright NZGames.com 1996-2023
Site paid for by members (love you guys)