NZGames.com Forums
Register FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Go Back   NZGames.com Forums > General > Open Discussion
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2nd October 2022, 13:31     #401
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
your people
Quote:
Originally Posted by _indigo1
you people

I am not part of any group. I just disagree with some of the things you say, and tend not to believe everything at face value. I like my news like I like my science - not coming from the government and people who have a dog in the fight. But making my own mind up about how I see the world doesn't put me into some homogeneous group where we all just believe the same shit.

To which group do you think I belong? The group of people who don't think the same as you? Or is there some other group of which I am a member without realizing it?

Why focus on me when I just provided a link with research from Stanford University that shows that what I say is based on fact? Are you more interested in the message, or shooting the messenger?

If you need help, you can call the DrTiTus - Mental Health Hotline. There is currently a 9 minute wait for your call to be answered, but do enjoy the hold music.
__________________
Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand...

Last edited by DrTiTus : 2nd October 2022 at 13:35.
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2022, 13:40     #402
_indigo1
 
Way to dodge the substance of my reply.
Good work.

#whataboutism
Quote:
the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counter-accusation or raising a different issue.
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2022, 13:57     #403
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
https://twitter.com/KonstantinKisin/...26809993011205
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2022, 14:01     #404
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by _indigo1
The only thing that is relevant is that Russia has invaded another sovereign country and as if that were not bad enough, has committed major war crimes in the process.

Even if Ukraine was a country full of racist fascist baby killing nazi's, it would be irrelevant because it doesn't negate the above fact.
I think it's important to also consider /why/ Russia has taken the action it has. Maybe there's more to it than just "invasion = bad, mmmkay".

Do you hold the US responsible for all its coups and regime changes that it exerts on "sovereign nations"? Do you think they are reprehensible for doing so? Do you accept they did just this in 2014 in Ukraine? At what point is Russia allowed to defend its own interests, which is what the US is doing when it goes all around the world doing this shit?

If the US [government] is asshole, and the US is responsible for this situation - which I believe they are based on their interference in 2014 - why are you taking their side? They interfere in sovereign nations - they commit war crimes. So why are you cheering them on? This isn't even Ukraine fighting anymore. This is the US at war with Russia, on Ukrainian soil, using Ukrainian troops (and their own, but as independent contractors to avoid an official war). That's the part I think you're confusing. It's not a simple situation. You've boiled it down to "omg invasion", but Russia doesn't just go to war for shits and giggles. Explain why YOU think Putin has invaded, if you can.

Why are you not promoting peace and negotiations instead of being all like "yeah, stick it to Putin! Kill the Russian civilians who had no say in this! Bring on nuclear war!"
__________________
Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand...
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2022, 14:21     #405
_indigo1
 
LOL.
Straight back to #whataboutism

Also,
Please provide said quote where I was
Quote:
being all like "yeah, stick it to Putin! Kill the Russian civilians who had no say in this! Bring on nuclear war!"

Last edited by _indigo1 : 2nd October 2022 at 14:24.
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2022, 14:35     #406
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
Maybe there's more to it than just "invasion = bad, mmmkay".
Yeah, we all know that. I get the folks at home are stumped by such suggestions, whoever they might be.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.

Last edited by Lightspeed : 2nd October 2022 at 14:37.
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2022, 14:50     #407
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by _indigo1
Straight back to #whataboutism
Bro, I gave you a response. You made a statement that was hypocritical. You're suggesting that any nation which interferes with another nation is not worthy of your support and deserves... something? I'm not sure what. But you're supporting the side that does just that, and did just that in the specific country which is now being fought over. If a nation that interferes with nations and commits war crimes does not get your support, why are you supporting one now? You should ideally be just taking an anti-war stance, recognizing that both sides are interfering in other countries and saying "hey, maybe this whole situation is fucking stupid?"

And I said "like" because that's the attitude you're adopting by being strictly anti-Russian. I used speech marks to indicate a kind of popular narrative that I see repeated a lot - if I wanted to quote you, I'd use <quote>.
__________________
Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand...
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2022, 15:32     #408
Ajax
Architeuthis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
Explain why YOU think Putin has invaded, if you can.
Read his essay from last year - he pretty much lays it all out.

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181

(Warning contains extensive historical revisionism)
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2022, 15:45     #409
_indigo1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
Bro, I gave you a response. You made a statement that was hypocritical. You're suggesting that any nation which interferes with another nation is not worthy of your support and deserves... something? I'm not sure what. But you're supporting the side that does just that, and did just that in the specific country which is now being fought over. If a nation that interferes with nations and commits war crimes does not get your support, why are you supporting one now? You should ideally be just taking an anti-war stance, recognizing that both sides are interfering in other countries and saying "hey, maybe this whole situation is fucking stupid?"

And I said "like" because that's the attitude you're adopting by being strictly anti-Russian. I used speech marks to indicate a kind of popular narrative that I see repeated a lot - if I wanted to quote you, I'd use <quote>.
You are making all of this up (all these supposed things I support or don't support). You are pissing into the wind my friend.

I never laid down any such support for any country. Again, please quote where this came from.

Re-read what I posted. I condemned actions.
Nowhere did I mention carte-blanche support for any country. Be it west or east.
For someone who goes on and on about things being more than black and white, you sure seem to be seeing in monochrome.
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2022, 15:49     #410
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by _indigo1
You are making all of this up (all these supposed things I support or don't support).
I don't think it's made up. I think in their effort to not be fooled by the mainstream, they're being fooled by someone who left out bait to catch fools.

Then they strut along here, fat with the bait they've gobbled up "You believe such dumb stuff! I'm so much better than you!".

🤷
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2022, 06:44     #411
Ajax
Architeuthis
 
Multiple reports this morning that sections of the Russian line in the Kherson area are collapsing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2022, 07:36     #412
fixed_truth
 
Almost time for a snap “referendum”
__________________
Protecting your peace is way more important than proving your point. Some people aren't open to cultivating their views. Just let them be wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2022, 10:31     #413
Trigga*happY
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
Bro, I gave you a response. You made a statement that was hypocritical. You're suggesting that any nation which interferes with another nation is not worthy of your support and deserves... something? I'm not sure what. But you're supporting the side that does just that, and did just that in the specific country which is now being fought over. If a nation that interferes with nations and commits war crimes does not get your support, why are you supporting one now? You should ideally be just taking an anti-war stance, recognizing that both sides are interfering in other countries and saying "hey, maybe this whole situation is fucking stupid?"

And I said "like" because that's the attitude you're adopting by being strictly anti-Russian. I used speech marks to indicate a kind of popular narrative that I see repeated a lot - if I wanted to quote you, I'd use <quote>.
I think the disconnect lies in the repercussions of support. Adopting an 'anti-war' stance at this point, is to consign Ukraine to Russian occupation. Supporting Ukraine doesn't immediately suggest support of US or US led operations, it supports one country not crossing borders and fucking up anothers citizens and infrastructure.

While there is certainly a proxy war going on here between Moscow and the west, the surface war of Russia invading Ukraine is much more important to many. You can certainly support the latter without supporting the former even though they are so closely tied together now.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2022, 22:32     #414
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Are we all in agreement that the US blew up the pipeline?

Or is there still speculation that Putin did it himself, and is now working to repair it himself, just for something to do?
__________________
Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand...
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2022, 22:36     #415
Lightspeed
 
It's all just speculation from what I can tell.
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 07:18     #416
Cyberbob
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigga*happY
Adopting an 'anti-war' stance at this point, is to consign Ukraine to Russian occupation.
That's a key point there actually. I've found myself in water cooler conversations with quite a few people that declare themselves as anti-war.

This comes in two flavours.

I'm Anti-War so when one nation invades another and tries to start one, we should be doing all we can to push them back.

I'm Anti-War so let Russia and Ukraine do whatever they want and don't get involved.


I'm personally firmly in the "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" camp.

Now I'm not saying I'm volunteering to go over, but I certainly don't see Russia and Ukraine on equal footing. One invaded the other. There is clearly a "bad guy" here.
__________________
ɹǝʌo sᴉ ǝɯɐƃ ʎɥʇ

Last edited by Cyberbob : 5th October 2022 at 07:21.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 08:48     #417
Trigga*happY
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
Are we all in agreement that the US blew up the pipeline?

Or is there still speculation that Putin did it himself, and is now working to repair it himself, just for something to do?
That's a pretty extreme simplification of the situation, there are multiple pro's and multiple con's for multiple countries to have targeted the pipeline. Saying "well russia's fixing it, so why would they destroy it," is to ignore the very fact that Putin is singlehandedly dismantling decades of economic growth in the pursuit of a reunified russia.

Putin could easily be playing both the EU and his own population by executing and denying this act. EU populations may lose the will to support their governments support of Ukraine over a long cold winter with exorbitant energy prices, while Russian civilians will lose income and Putin can blame their suffering on EU, galvanising some of the population that may be leaning towards the "is this worth it?" camp.

England (or other EU countries) could benefit politically by blaming Putin and not having to justify harsh energy prices on a political decision, but rather on an infrastructural deficit caused by Russia.

US would be the least to suffer from this action, however they also have the least reason to execute it in the first place as the sanctions are in place and are only getting stronger. It could be a long play, based on the assumption that some or all of europe MIGHT relinquish sanctions if energy/gas prices get too high. BUT that's a pretty big risk to take. If caught they risk alienating most of the EU and risk destabilising NATO who is stronger (cohesively) than they have been in a very long time.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 08:56     #418
Trigga*happY
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberbob
That's a key point there actually. I've found myself in water cooler conversations with quite a few people that declare themselves as anti-war.

This comes in two flavours.

I'm Anti-War so when one nation invades another and tries to start one, we should be doing all we can to push them back.

I'm Anti-War so let Russia and Ukraine do whatever they want and don't get involved.


I'm personally firmly in the "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" camp.

Now I'm not saying I'm volunteering to go over, but I certainly don't see Russia and Ukraine on equal footing. One invaded the other. There is clearly a "bad guy" here.
Heh, I just called DrT on overly simplifying, however that is precisely where I fall too. Yes I recognise that Ukraine has a terrible track record regarding human rights, but if the government and AZOV can unify against Russia's advances, the likelihood of 90% of DPR wishing for annexation seems absurd. If Russia has grievances with Ukraine's treatment of the population on their borders, then offer asylum and support in rebuilding lives on THEIR side of the border.

The fact that Russia's first strike was a targeted heavy march on Kyiv however, seems to indicate to me that supporting the population of the DPR was at best, a secondary goal.

**edit** I also find it interesting that Mariupol was one of the first targeted locations, alongside the fact that Russian mines have been producing consistently (and in some cases drastically) lower yields over the past two decades.

Last edited by Trigga*happY : 5th October 2022 at 09:00.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 11:33     #419
_indigo1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
Are we all in agreement that the US blew up the pipeline?
LOL
Nothing underscores the core of the error in critical thought than this sentence.

Of course, the real answer is `lol of course not`.
None of us have the real answer to this, there is no evidence either way.
All there is is assumption.

What this sentence is doing is seeking tribal support and confirmation of assumption and opinion so that it can be elevated to 'fact' and incorporated into the greater 'picture'
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 11:54     #420
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigga*happY
That's a pretty extreme simplification of the situation...
US would be the least to suffer from this action
I was basing it off a) their threat to end the Nordstream pipeline (Biden, on video), b) their ships being in the area at the time, with c) the Polish politician thanking them for doing it (Poland has a navy base 100km south of the location, and may have assisted/allowed them, so maybe not "US alone", but "US-supported/encouraged"), and d) the CIA giving non-specific warnings to a few countries, including Germany, that the pipeline was a target.

There's a financial motive, there is evidence of them being at the scene of the crime, and wherever there is money and energy involved, US is in there "spreading democracy" with weapons of war. But OK, let's give these assholes another chance, maybe THIS time their lies and deceit is for a good cause and they're not just acting in their own financial self-interest. When has America ever used foreigners' lives as pawns in their imperialism? It's SO out of character.

If you guys wanna wait for the official report, you might find out it was done by a bat from the Wuhan wet market and you can all nod sagely and say "ah yes, that makes perfect sense"
__________________
Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand...
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 11:59     #421
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by _indigo1
None of us have the real answer to this, there is no evidence either way.
All there is is assumption.

What this sentence is doing is seeking tribal support and confirmation of assumption and opinion so that it can be elevated to 'fact' and incorporated into the greater 'picture'
hahah, I'm trolling to get the discussion started, because I wanna see who is seeing the obvious, and who is a hedgehog in the fog of propaganda.
__________________
Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand...
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 12:36     #422
Nich
 
https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...energean-says/
Quote:
8 September 2022, 3:15 pm
Greek energy firm Energean is expected to begin extracting gas from Israel’s offshore Karish gas field “within weeks” the company says.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/...ts-and-figures
Quote:
The volumes achievable from Karish and similar gas fields are significant for Israel but not in global terms. For comparison, Leviathan produces about 12 bcm per year and Tamar less than 10 bcm, while Europe’s annual demand for gas was around 400 bcm even before the Ukraine crisis, with Russia supplying more than 40 percent of that amount. Clearly, increased Israeli exports would have minimal impact on this imbalance.
...
Israel may also be able to export gas more widely than its current arrangements: by pipeline to Jordan (where 80 percent of electricity is produced by Israeli gas) and Egypt (whose apparently insatiable domestic energy market is not sufficiently fed by the country’s 75 tcf of gas reserves and estimated annual production of 65 bcm).

just saying...
__________________
but what would I know?
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 12:48     #423
Trigga*happY
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
hahah, I'm trolling to get the discussion started, because I wanna see who is seeing the obvious, and who is a hedgehog in the fog of propaganda.
While, as mentioned, i stand firmly in the "invading country needs to fuck off" camp, i'm not blind to others motives, means and MO's. Which is why i put forward three possibilities in brief, and don't discount the possibility of any countries involvement.

With the US being reluctant to escalate beyond supplying equipment and funding, a direct attack (outside of sanctions) seems like a step too far situation.

"Seeing the obvious," does not automatically mean "The US did it."
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 13:01     #424
Trigga*happY
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigga*happY
With the US being reluctant to escalate beyond supplying equipment and funding, a direct attack (outside of sanctions) seems like a step too far situation.
** but not outside the realms of possibility or even likelihood.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 13:27     #425
_indigo1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTiTus
hahah, I'm trolling to get the discussion started, because I wanna see who is seeing the obvious, and who is a hedgehog in the fog of propaganda.
Hedgehog in the fog of propaganda?
That's almost a Bush-ism.

Surely ostrich would have worked better.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 13:32     #426
Nich
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberbob
I'm personally firmly in the "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" camp.
Težina lanaca | The Weight of Chains (2010)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw49iL6zGyQ

Just waiting for some good men to do something about US / Zionist regime-change wars...
__________________
but what would I know?
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 13:36     #427
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by _indigo1
Hedgehog in the fog of propaganda?
That's almost a Bush-ism.

Surely ostrich would have worked better.
Hedgehog in the Fog - it's a Soviet animation. I don't know any ostrich-based Soviet films or phrases, sorry.
__________________
Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand...

Last edited by DrTiTus : 5th October 2022 at 13:38.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 13:38     #428
_indigo1
 
Ahh
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 14:30     #429
Nich
 
Senator Joe Biden, in 1999, "Suggested bombing of Belgrade and destroying all bridges on the Drina"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtwkfqLboX0

Biden dangling NATO membership carrot infront of Albania / Kosovo. History rhymes.

Almost a quarter century later, and they still want to join, and have yet to join. lol. If Ukraine survives 2023, maybe in 2050 they'll get to join... ehhhh I dunno we'll think about it and get back to you. You're on the road to membership though, keep it up!
__________________
but what would I know?

Last edited by Nich : 5th October 2022 at 14:32.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 18:01     #430
Lightspeed
 
These Russian torture chambers that are being found are so fucking chilling:

https://nakipelo.ua/v-odnij-z-kative...ymy-protezamy/

Of course it could be all fake and staged. Not sure where you'd come up with the teeth, perhaps a local dentist?
__________________
Stay shook. No sook.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 18:43     #431
Nich
 
Michael Hudson on The Euro Without Germany
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2022...t-germany.html
Quote:
As a final kicker, Pepe Escobar pointed out on September 28 that “Germany is contractually obligated to purchase at least 40 billion cubic meters of Russian gas a year until 2030. … Gazprom is legally entitled to get paid even without shipping gas. That’s the spirit of a long-term contract. … Berlin does not get all the gas it needs but still needs to pay.” It looks like a long court battle before money will change hands – but Germany’s ability to pay will be steadily weakening.

Poland formally demands $1.3 trillion in reparations from Germany for WWII damages
https://rmx.news/poland/poland-forma...-wwii-damages/
Quote:
The relationship between Poland and Germany must be based on truth and justice “so that we can close painful chapters and move forward on the basis of a good neighborhood and cooperation,” said Rau.

He also said the settlement should cover the return of assets that were taken by the Germans, including those in banks.
Banks like Deutsche Bank, and Credit Suisse... which totally have spare cash right now... and energy enough to open and shut the automatic doors at their branches.


Greater German Youth Movement has entered the chat.
__________________
but what would I know?
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 19:18     #432
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Jesus, that is interesting timing all right.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 19:45     #433
Nich
 
Given Poland and Israel have some very understandable historic reasons to want to see Germany brought low; and

given Germany very swiftly and conveniently forgot they were all Nazis when USA razed, then made them a vassal. Which silent guilt drove the youth of Germany crazy in the late 60's . see The Living Dead, E1: On the Desperate Edge of Now https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4xoM6-1SWl4

Given both countries have have the means, and some of the most sophisticated Palestinian-tested... unh i mean battle-tested weaponry money can buy. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...cupied-hebron/

Given both countries also have just unveiled their own gas pipelines into Europe

Given both countries also hate Russia

leaves me to conclude the Zionists blew up nordstream I & II, and probably blackmailed some in US to provide navy assist (helicopters, ships in area)

And now, to ensure they don't get back up, Poland layers on more economy pressure with the victim card reparations.
__________________
but what would I know?
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 20:10     #434
Nich
 
Also, Poland released this video after the attack. https://9gag.com/gag/aPgyyGw (animation of aerial drones on the bottom of the ocean blowing up the pipeline)

Better to be seen as an incompetant victim, than a capable aggressor. Buh, aerial drones work underwater, I'm so dumb! Israel is good at this game too and you can bet any accusation levelled at Zionist machinations will be met with calls of "anti-semite!"
__________________
but what would I know?

Last edited by Nich : 5th October 2022 at 20:13.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th October 2022, 23:40     #435
Nich
 
A snapshot, 2014:
Foreign Affairs' Gideon Rose discusses the origins and implications of the Ukraine rebellion. (USA vpn required)
https://www.cc.com/video/8067fc/the-...ne-gideon-rose
"We need to steal Russia's girlfriend." (and remember when Colbert was funny!?)

Breaking: Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet and Catherine Ashton discuss Ukraine over the phone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8
"They were the same snipers, killing people from both sides... new coalition does not want to investigate."

Nuland-Pyatt leaked phone conversation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV9J6sxCs5k
"Yatz is the guy... fuck the EU."

Ukrainian General: "Ukraine is under Zionist occupation." / Генерал: "Украину оккупировали Сионисты"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu8JolUBNfg
"Initially it looked like 2 clans fighting...and now it's simply a direct Occupation of Ukraine by the US."

Oliver Stone's Revealing Ukraine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhu3lfgHhCI
“Revealing Ukraine” by Igor Lopatonok continues investigations on of the ongoing Ukrainian crisis following “Ukraine on Fire”. In addition, it analyzes the current political backstage and its dangerous potential for the world.
__________________
but what would I know?
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2022, 10:22     #436
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
The Ukraine social media game is strong.

https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1577712004667789312
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2022, 11:26     #437
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Shouldn't they have put the words in Russian, or is this made for English speakers to get support from us instead of sending a message to Russians?
__________________
Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand...
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2022, 11:44     #438
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
The audience is Western social media users.
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2022, 12:09     #439
DrTiTus
HENCE WHY FOREVER ALONE
 
Cool, I reported it for threatening a particular group with violence, which is against Twitter rules lol.

I obviously don't care, I just want to see if/how they respond.
__________________
Finger rolling rhythm, ride the horse one hand...
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2022, 12:13     #440
Nich
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
The audience is Western social media users.
Exactly.
Civil Society 2.0
https://www.flickr.com/photos/usemba...7632893215416/

The narrative is so absurd that even Reuters fact-check had to pump the brakes:
Fact Check-Video of queues at Russia-Finland border was taken more than three weeks before Vladimir Putin’s partial mobilisation announcement
https://www.reuters.com/article/fact...-idUSL1N30U1HK
__________________
but what would I know?
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



© Copyright NZGames.com 1996-2022
Site paid for by members (love you guys)