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Old 5th November 2013, 07:36     #1
leadinjector
 
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11151474

so with these roastie boys, how long do you reckon til the sobbing heartfelt apology comes out? while i doubt any actual vigilante action will come of this- like always, people talk tough but very few are actually going to get their hands dirty- these dudes must be shitting now this has become such a big deal. looking forward to the bullshit apology on campbell live.
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Old 5th November 2013, 08:03     #2
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
Drunk girls get fucked all of the time; some of them intend this to happen some do not and most from both groups can't remember what happened even if shown pictorial evidence.

I just don't agree with the vigilante brigade that this is bad - this is just one of the priori-understood likely consequence of choosing to be drunk out in the big wide world where everyone knows there are both good and bad people.

It's no surprise to anyone old enough to want to drink what happens if you drink too much and so for me it does not count if something later regretted happens where a person sets themselves up to make this negative experience thousands of times more likely than it would be if they weren't high on drugs.

If you voluntarily play Russian Roulette and mange to shoot yourself in the head then it's your own fault that this happens.

Perhaps good can come from this though? Share the videos widely so that others can be even better informed of what can happen (assuming this is possible - I imagine most people are already adequately informed but providing repeat education might slightly expanded those who grasp this simple concept).
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Old 5th November 2013, 08:14     #3
StN
I have detailed files
 
Hmmm - is GT playing devils advocate here?

Surely he recognises that brain development, and in particular, risk analysis and avoidance, are not fully matured in a 13 year old - no matter how much "Girls mature faster than boys" crap is touted out. Stupification is considered a factor for a reason.

And he wouldn't be advocating the distribution of child sex videos would he?
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Old 5th November 2013, 08:17     #4
pxpx
 
Where are the parents.
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Old 5th November 2013, 08:27     #5
Lightspeed
 
Working minimum wage jobs for GT.
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Old 5th November 2013, 08:31     #6
Jodi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Working minimum wage jobs for GT.
Hahaha.
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Old 5th November 2013, 12:58     #7
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StN
Stupification is considered a factor for a reason
A 13 year old is entirely capable of making straightforward decisions about how to remain safe in the most simple situations.

The only drunk kids you see, with rare exceptions, are those that have learned to be like ths having watched and emulated their parents. NZ society holds in high esteeme those who are high on various drugs; being so is a favorite pastime of a large part of the adult population. But of course most rationalise that alcohol doesn't count as a drug to be careful with.

Distributing the videos? Sure - some will collect them to support their fantasies but most would see these as a pretty stark indication of the need to engage their brains in taking a small amount of responsibility for themselves. I'd show them in schools during drug education with a "this is what happens if you can't be bothered taking sme responsibility for you safety".

Many adult women have the same experiences; thus is so common it's not news worthy.
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Old 5th November 2013, 13:10     #8
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Australia's highest profile "mummy blogger", Mia Freedman, posted an article last month about the danger in which drunk girls place themselves, an article which concluded

Quote:
I believe itís crucial to educate girls about the link between alcohol and sexual assault and warn them about the increased risk to their safety that comes with getting wasted. This is not an issue of morality. If you want to have casual sex, go for it. Safely. Just make sure itís your decision and one youíre still comfortable with the next day.

Binge-drinking dramatically changes your ability to make good decisions or protect yourself from bad ones made by others.
Of course, the social-media sisterhood went mediaeval on her ass for "blaming the victims" or whatever the latest catchphrase is.
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Old 5th November 2013, 14:37     #9
fixed_truth
 
Well it finally happened. GT went full troll.
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Old 5th November 2013, 15:02     #10
aR Que
 
I dont lile how the media has whipped thias into such a huge shit storm. Right or wrong, you cant call them rapists until they atleast have been charged and preferably convicted, surely?
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Old 5th November 2013, 15:25     #11
mpx
     .
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Teapot
A 13 year old is entirely capable of making straightforward decisions about how to remain safe in the most simple situations.
The developmental stages are still extremely immature in a 13 year old and are hugely influenced by older peers and adults, what you've just said is so mindblowingly retarded that I don't even know how to finish this sentence properly.
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Old 5th November 2013, 20:01     #12
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpx
The developmental stages are still extremely immature in a 13 year old and are hugely influenced by older peers and adults, what you've just said is so mindblowingly retarded that I don't even know how to finish this sentence properly.
Or you're being stupidly naive. A 13 year old is ENTIRELY capable of understanding that if they are drugged up and out of their mind in a place with potentially dangerous people then something bad might happen to them. These teenagers are taught this in school (where attendance is compulsory).

You might want your teenager to be like a six year old but the brutal reality is that they are not.

Teenagers and adults alike choose very deliberately to get high on drugs. A great many adults teach their kids by example that this is in fact desirable.

I know plenty of adults whose primary recreation activity is getting drunk at every opportunity. What I find entertaining is how these adults who are also parents react when their kids precisely emulate the behavior of the home they have grown up in - it's okay for the adults to be drunk and incoherent but when they're sober enough to realise what is happening around them they're horrified by the exact same behavior being expressed by their kids.

Girl goes out with the intention of getting high. She know beforehand exactly what this will mean in terms of her awareness of her situation. She knows beforehand that she will be amongst people she has no reason to trust. She knows beforehand exactly the sorts of things that might happen. She engages in activities that in some cases she later regrets. What is the problem here?
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Old 5th November 2013, 20:12     #13
fidgit
Always itchy
 
Should 13 year olds also be allowed to vote, and be held liable to any actions they take (that is, should we do away with the idea that someone can't be found guilty of a crime if they are young enough?)


I'm not trolling, genuinely curious on your thoughts on this.
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Old 5th November 2013, 20:32     #14
mpx
     .
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Teapot
Or you're being stupidly naive. A 13 year old is ENTIRELY capable of understanding that if they are drugged up and out of their mind in a place with potentially dangerous people then something bad might happen to them. These teenagers are taught this in school (where attendance is compulsory).
It's not as black and white as you are making it out to be, GT. While they could "choose" to go down the route of drugs and alcohol, the predisposition to that route can be heavily influenced by external sources because they quite simply haven't developed enough to form complete, logical and rational independent thoughts. The key word there is, "complete." You're mentioning teenagers, but we're talking 13 year olds here. There is a colossal difference between 13 and 17 even if they're both teenagers.

The developmental stages a 10 - 13 or even 13 - 15/16 year old is going through is crucial and they are absolutely still easily swayed by adult/senior issues if they're exposed to them. They've got a whole heap of biological nonsense going on with hormones and new thought patterns which COULD display independence to a lay person, but the reality is that they're still extremely easily molded and/or groomed and adding alcohol to the mix would confuse a huge majority of children in that age bracket.

Note; I say most, not all. There are always exceptions, however your opinions and suggestions are literally going against thousands of peer reviewed, evidence based literature.

Just because you or I, or even your children had proper adult influences in place to guide our developmental progress towards a pattern of what is known to be rational and logic and dismiss any drug and alcohol until age-appropriate or even until we're slightly older, does not mean that everyone has had that luxury and that is most likely the type of children these guys are going for. And they probably were easily swayed into drinking, copious amounts even, but that does not at all mean they've consented in any way and should absolutely not minimise the atrocity of guys preying on younger women and boasting about it online.
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Old 5th November 2013, 20:39     #15
mpx
     .
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fidgit
Should 13 year olds also be allowed to vote, and be held liable to any actions they take (that is, should we do away with the idea that someone can't be found guilty of a crime if they are young enough?)


I'm not trolling, genuinely curious on your thoughts on this.
I don't personally believe so, while I think they should definitely be held accountable for any illegal actions they take (for example, a 13 year old drinking alcohol is stupid and she needs a pretty big talk about that), I think the focus should be on rehabilitation rather than complete punishment. A lot of young kids that are troubled are due to exposure to adult issues in their early lives, so while they're the ones behaving out of control, there are other factors to keep in mind and so I personally think a rehabilitative approach is better than flat out punishment. I'm not saying minimise their actions, but balance the aggravating and mitigating features against each other and find the least restrictive outcome so that they have hope for a better life as an adult.
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Old 6th November 2013, 06:35     #16
chubby
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpx
The developmental stages are still extremely immature in a 13 year old and are hugely influenced by older peers and adults, what you've just said is so mindblowingly retarded that I don't even know how to finish this sentence properly.
qfmt.

13....?
they are horny and want to think they're older mebbe....
but to manipulate that as an older man is despicable.
keep to the virtual kiddies gt.
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Old 6th November 2013, 08:42     #17
Jodi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Teapot
A 13 year old is ENTIRELY capable of understanding that if they are drugged up and out of their mind in a place with potentially dangerous people then something bad might happen to them. These teenagers are taught this in school (where attendance is compulsory).
According to the literature I consumed doing my psychology papers at Auckland Uni this is incorrect. An average 13 year old does not have the ability to link their actions to the consequences like a mature adult does. I think most modern law recognises this with minimum age of culpability for most crimes.

You're saying that this is all wrong, that a 13 year old does know what's coming to them. We'll if that's the case you should follow though and promote reduce voting age to 13 (as previously suggested), drinking age to 13, driving age to 13, and legal culpability to 13.

Tell me how that works GT?
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Old 6th November 2013, 08:45     #18
Dusty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
Well it finally happened. GT went full troll.
Best comment in this terrible thread!
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Old 6th November 2013, 08:47     #19
wugambino
Electric Boogaloo
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Teapot
Teenagers and adults alike choose very deliberately to get high on drugs. A great many adults teach their kids by example that this is in fact desirable.
Major difference being Adults are aware of their consequences of their actions. My oldest child is 13 and having never been high or seen anyone high he has no idea of the affects it has on your body and judgement. To a kid (and they are just kids) the idea of an action having an effect on the rest of your life is pretty hard to wrap your brain around.

Im not saying no child can judge between right and wrong, I am saying that you cannot expect a 13 year old to exercise the same judgement as an adult.


Quote:
Girl goes out with the intention of getting high. She know beforehand exactly what this will mean in terms of her awareness of her situation. She knows beforehand that she will be amongst people she has no reason to trust. She knows beforehand exactly the sorts of things that might happen. She engages in activities that in some cases she later regrets. What is the problem here?
So by making those choices she forfeit's her rights? do the people with her not have an obligation to not rape her?
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Old 6th November 2013, 08:52     #20
Trigger
Laserman
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wugambino
do the people with her not have an obligation to not rape her?
don't be silly, rape is a totally normal part of everyday life
#yolo
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Old 6th November 2013, 09:07     #21
fixed_truth
 
Apart from ruining the ghostbusters song; what does the term "roast busters" actually mean in teen speak? Something to do with a spit roast?
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Old 6th November 2013, 09:24     #22
blur^
 
I hate how this shit is labeled as rape

Just like women these days can regret a one night stand and cry rape and completely destroy the guys life even if proven innocent.
I am not saying these guys are innocent but until they are convicted in court, calling them rapists is BULLSHIT.
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Old 6th November 2013, 09:35     #23
pxpx
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Working minimum wage jobs for GT.
Plenty of poor parents don't allow their teenagers to stupify underage girls and then sleep with them.
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Old 6th November 2013, 09:50     #24
Lightspeed
 
And plenty of parents who refuse to stay poor work 60-80 hour weeks, to ensure more visible needs are met (clothing, schooling, food, housing), not realising they also need to spend quality time working through tough issues with their kids.
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Old 6th November 2013, 09:56     #25
mpx
     .
 
I agree with you blur that people should jump the gun to, "rape", but I don't think that's the argument here, I think the argument here is strictly around the allegation that they've made a sexual violation by sexual conduct with a young person under 16 years old (the 13 year old [Crimes Act 1961 s134(1) and (6)]).

However, the defence could be that they didn't *know* she was 13. [Crimes Act 1961 s134(a)(1) subs(a)(b)(c)].

But then there's the roundabout argument of whether a 13 year old is impaired enough to understand the sexual conduct or the decisions about sexual conduct and so on. [Crimes Act 1961 s138(6) subs(a)(b)(c)(d)]

Section 131B is also relevant. Section 128(a) also talks about how allowing sexual activity does not amount to consent in some circumstances.

While I agree that this vigilante mob mentality has jumped the gun to rape straight away, these guys haven't done themselves any favours by plastering themselves all over Facebook and gloating about their exploitations. It's hard for a reasonable person to put emotion to one side and judge solely on the facts, especially when most of the "facts" have come from the sensationalised media.
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Old 6th November 2013, 10:45     #26
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blur^
until they are convicted in court, calling them rapists is BULLSHIT.


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Old 6th November 2013, 12:12     #27
Cyberbob
 
Ah trial by media. Increasing the chances of a dismissal due to tainted jury pool since ages ago.
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Old 6th November 2013, 12:44     #28
chubby
 
Quote:
New Zealand Teen Rape Club Is The Worst Thing You'll Read About Today
http://jezebel.com/new-zealand-teen-rape-club-is-the-worst-thing-youll-re-1458798760?utm_source=recirculation&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=tuesda yPM

Quote:
Meanwhile, New Zealand police are like *shrug!* we can't do anything about it because we don't have any evidence! None of the girls victimized by the Roast Busters have filed a formal complaint and so, legally, their hands are tied. Detective Inspector Bruce Scott put it this way: "None of the girls have been brave enough to make formal statements to us so we can take that to a prosecution stage."

Meanwhile ó and predictably, given the cops epic bed-shitting here ó vigilante groups have sprung up, and members of the Roast Busters have been getting death threats.
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Old 6th November 2013, 13:56     #29
FireStorm
Holmium
 
Question

Maybe an interesting parenting trick would be to allow them to get high/drunk at home as a once off and then when they're out of it, shave off their eyebrows and write over their face with vivids. Make sure to document this with pic and/or video evidence. When they recover, they'll learn pretty quickly some of the negatives of these things. Hopefully they'll make better decisions in the future? For the record, I don't have kids.
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Old 6th November 2013, 13:56     #30
blur^
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab


I dont get your point? Hes being cynical? cause the media has labelled him a racist? He is probably proud of it but thats not the point.

The situation is all kinds of fucked up
Quote:
...that drunken group sex was actually "normal in West Auckland".

"Not for everybody though it's just the young ones - 13 to 15-year-olds - that's what they do", one of the girls claimed.
There are chicks involved defending them http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crim...male-defenders

WTF is wrong with you auckland?

Last edited by blur^ : 6th November 2013 at 13:58.
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Old 6th November 2013, 14:04     #31
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpx
It's not as black and white as you are making it out to be, GT. While they could "choose" to go down the route of drugs and alcohol, the predisposition to that route can be heavily influenced by external sources because they quite simply haven't developed enough to form complete, logical and rational independent thoughts. The key word there is, "complete." You're mentioning teenagers, but we're talking 13 year olds here. There is a colossal difference between 13 and 17 even if they're both teenagers.

The developmental stages a 10 - 13 or even 13 - 15/16 year old is going through is crucial and they are absolutely still easily swayed by adult/senior issues if they're exposed to them. They've got a whole heap of biological nonsense going on with hormones and new thought patterns which COULD display independence to a lay person, but the reality is that they're still extremely easily molded and/or groomed and adding alcohol to the mix would confuse a huge majority of children in that age bracket.

Note; I say most, not all. There are always exceptions, however your opinions and suggestions are literally going against thousands of peer reviewed, evidence based literature.

Just because you or I, or even your children had proper adult influences in place to guide our developmental progress towards a pattern of what is known to be rational and logic and dismiss any drug and alcohol until age-appropriate or even until we're slightly older, does not mean that everyone has had that luxury and that is most likely the type of children these guys are going for. And they probably were easily swayed into drinking, copious amounts even, but that does not at all mean they've consented in any way and should absolutely not minimise the atrocity of guys preying on younger women and boasting about it online.
Excellent post.

Too bad we hadn't figured this out before we decided convicting a 12 year old as "New Zealand's youngest killer" was the right thing to do.
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Old 6th November 2013, 14:34     #32
spigalau
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blur^
I dont get your point? Hes being cynical? cause the media has labelled him a racist? He is probably proud of it but thats not the point.
Blur - he posted that comment in October, this has only just gone mediastream this month (November).
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Old 6th November 2013, 14:53     #33
Lightspeed
 
Hahah, if it does get to court, with that kind of evidence they'll probably give the case to a junior prosecutor, let them have a go at an easy win.
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Old 6th November 2013, 15:04     #34
aR Que
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blur^
WTF is wrong with you auckland?
sloots gonna sloot.
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Old 6th November 2013, 16:09     #35
mpx
     .
 
The scummy areas of West Auckland are pretty shoddy, I grew up in South Auckland and now live out West, I would say West is actually worse. It's definitely not a white trash suburbia anymore. I don't live in the best neighbourhood (right on the edge of West Harbour) but thankfully I live in a cul-de-sac with awesome neighbours. One makes medieval weapons and armour and another is a little person family (with a pocket bike to boot, I swear I almost felt like I could die because I had seen so much awesome that day). But, one or two streets over, it's a shit hole. Fights all the time and we can sometimes hear them from our street.

It's kinda sad
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Old 6th November 2013, 18:57     #36
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jodi
Tell me how that works GT?
Many adults are not capable of voting sensibly (from any standpoint). Of those that do make sensible choices I imagine many could have done so from a younger age than they did.

The basic situation being discussed here is an extremely simple one. You will see if you check my posts that I am silent on what is valid for every single conceivable situation. I have written exclusively about going out with the intention of getting high using one or another drug and whether a teen is capable of understanding possible consequences.
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Old 6th November 2013, 19:03     #37
Golden Teapot
Love, Actuary
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wugambino
So by making those choices she forfeit's her rights? do the people with her not have an obligation to not rape her?
But she has exercised her right to be in a situation where she may experience things she will come to regret. I'm not aware of any person of normal mental faculty beyond the age of five who is not aware that there are bad people in the world.
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Old 6th November 2013, 19:39     #38
Trigger
Laserman
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blur^
WTF is wrong with you auckland?
whats wrong with group sex?
the only thing that's the problem here is public name and shame and being dicks about it
besides that, carry on imo
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Old 6th November 2013, 20:21     #39
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed_truth
Apart from ruining the ghostbusters song; what does the term "roast busters" actually mean in teen speak? Something to do with a spit roast?

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Old 6th November 2013, 20:32     #40
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Teapot
Many adults are not capable of voting sensibly (from any standpoint). Of those that do make sensible choices I imagine many could have done so from a younger age than they did.
I'm assuming GT won't read this. I'd like to point out the word "sensible" is a subjective judgement, but does anyone else get the feeling GT is using it as if it's an objective measure?

This is the far right "I'm a centrist" mindset.
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