Random Thoughts II

[?>Superman]

Originally Posted by StN

RIP Hiroshi Yamauchi.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24160150

Hiroshi Yamauchi, the Japanese businessman credited with transforming Nintendo into a world-leading video games company, has died aged 85.

;( RIP

[Lightspeed]

RIP Yamauchi-sama. That guy has to be responsible more happiness than almost anyone who has lived.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by mpx

If there's one thing I've learnt from my job over the years is that if you ever want free counselling, support, programmes, psychologist and psychiatrist assessments and other such supervision that you can't afford, just commit a crime.

Today's news:
Coroner calls for urgent action on mental health support

[mpx]

I don't want to take over Random Thoughts thread with depressing shit, but that hits a bit too close to home that article!

Unless I had a) thoughts to kill myself and b) a plan to do so, there was no help at all. Nil, zilch, nada. It was only through sheer determination of calling the crisis helpline multiple times, begging for someone to come see me, that I got help. I went through Depression hotline, lifeline, youthline, phobic trust line, crisis line, they all referred me to each other not really knowing what to do other than saying, "Ay m8, chin up, she'll be right."

Then I got to the point where dying, okay maybe not dying, but sleeping for a loooooong time would be kinda okay. That's when my wife stepped in and basically said, "For fuck sake are you going to wait until he kills himself to do anything?" Then they came over.

Went to the respite house for a night, they forgot my medication and gave me new medication that made me even crazier and withdrawals from previous medication I'd been on, said I didn't want to be there anymore, they said if I left they'd call the cops to bring me in. They didn't believe me when I mentioned the medication. I had to use sleight of hand to pretend to take the pills, luckily they were pretty useless at monitoring us taking them so it wasn't too hard to fool them. God only knows what would've happened if I had kept taking the wrong medication.

Home crisis team was a turning point, after about 15 different people coming to see me, one guy came and clearly had either been close with someone who had gone through what I had gone through or had been through it himself, because he was the only one that listened to me. I was still a mess and I had the opportunity to see a psychologist - in 8 months time. No fault of them, they're hugely understaffed but I didn't have 8 months, I had days...

I ended up googling a psychologist I had seen a while back for respiratory issues (health psychologist), I found out where she was working now in a private institute and called the number.

The senior psychologist answered, he was on holiday, but he answered anyway and he stayed with me on the phone for at least an hour, basically assessing me while he was on holiday with his family. FOR FREE. He then, after hearing everything about me in minute detail, suggested I see a certain psychologist on their team - their place is specifically for depression, anxiety and OCD (all of which I have, OCD thanks to tourettes, but I actually find OCD kinda endearing :P).

To cut it a bit short, I've paid thousands of dollars so far for a private senior psychologist and she absolutely saved my life. I do NOT regret handing over money for this kind of help. It was night and day. The first session my wife and I both cried, because of how well she understood me, she was finishing my sentences - we were both essentially saved.

It's hard, though. I'm actually not at work today because I couldn't afford to get petrol until pay day and didn't have enough for the bus. My wife bought me GTA:V on credit as a gift to how well I have improved, that's about the only thing we have splashed out on lately.

Money is a real issue in our household but neither my wife and I even care, because our lives are so enriched by this one psychologist, we happily eat eggs on toast for dinner a few days a week because the alternative is so much worse. Sometimes my wife comes to the sessions, and even though couples sessions should be more, she doesn't charge us more.

I mean it seems obvious that I would get better help if I paid for it, but the public system is so fragmented that I was going BACKWARDS, instead of forwards.

I do Coroners Court a lot at work, I probably shouldn't but I do anyway, most of them are inquests into mental health patients. If someone is under the Mental Health Act an inquest must be held, and it really rips my heart to hear of some of the preventable deaths if people had just listened or took someone just a little more seriously.

SERIOUS POST OVER HERE IS A FOX

[Lightspeed]

Great post. There are many great stories like yours that show there is a way out of the darkness. The difficulties you highlight are important too, because it's very hard to hear the stories of those who don't make it, and for me at least I think they need to be heard.

[MadMax]

few years ago a good friend of mine lost his wife and daughter due to a complication with the pregnancy. just found out he has ended his life. despite understanding i can't believe it. everyone thought he was ok.

[StN]

I had been using a passphrase for a semi-secure account at work for quite some time, and became adept at typing in the 30+ characters.

But one loss in window focus and all that is for nought.

Plus I had to explain to the PA why a random tourettes like phrase appeared in her Lync chat window.

"Ron Jeremy has an enormous penis!!!!!"

[CCS]

lol

[Savage]

Originally Posted by MadMax

few years ago a good friend of mine lost his wife and daughter due to a complication with the pregnancy. just found out he has ended his life. despite understanding i can't believe it. everyone thought he was ok.

Condolences man, that's rough

[fixed_truth]

Lookout Abs; there's a new contender for biggest chokers . . .

[aR Que]

Naw, just shows that we wern't 'that great' we just previously had no competition, now that we're facing an opponent that has figured out how to sail their boat, we're in trouble.

it'd be a great competition if america did come back and win it. I do hope, that if we do take it, we take it before oracle gets to 7 pts, otherwise it's a bit *shakey hand*

[fixed_truth]

Some kind of Universe simulator???

http://orteil.dashnet.org/nested

[p01s0n]

i'd rather click cookies tbh

[Ab]

Originally Posted by MadMax

few years ago a good friend of mine lost his wife and daughter due to a complication with the pregnancy. just found out he has ended his life. despite understanding i can't believe it. everyone thought he was ok.

Dude decided he didn't want to be alive any more. I don't see that as such a big deal.

[CCS]

Do you suppose he was thinking rationally when he made that decision?

[Ab]

Who am I to say he wasn't? I know nothing other than what MadMax posted. But if taken by a mature moral agent without coercion I have no problem with a decision to not exist.

[MadMax]

Originally Posted by Ab

Dude decided he didn't want to be alive any more. I don't see that as such a big deal.

he was only the ring leader of all his circles of friends, described by his employers as highly intelligent; understood and remembered things when told once, took on new challenges like he'd done them before, everything he touched turned to gold kinda stuff, talented at everything and anything he did. So yeah, a big deal.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by CCS

Do you suppose he was thinking rationally when he made that decision?

Determining what's rational in this context is pretty much impossible. You end up in an endless argument about the nature of self.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by MadMax

he was only the ring leader of all his circles of friends, described by his employers as highly intelligent; understood and remembered things when told once, took on new challenges like he'd done them before, everything he touched turned to gold kinda stuff, talented at everything and anything he did. So yeah, a big deal.

Definitely a big deal and a big loss.

[Ab]

Originally Posted by MadMax

he was only the ring leader of all his circles of friends, described by his employers as highly intelligent; understood and remembered things when told once, took on new challenges like he'd done them before, everything he touched turned to gold kinda stuff, talented at everything and anything he did. So yeah, a big deal.

So what he could be used for is more important than what he wanted for himself? Harsh.

[Golden Teapot]

I'm with Ab on this.

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by Ab

But if taken by a mature moral agent without coercion I have no problem with a decision to not exist.

Are you saying that if it was someone very close to you (your spouse or adult child or best mate etc) you would have no problem with their decision?

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Ab

So what he could be used for is more important than what he wanted for himself? Harsh.

It seems more coherent with contemporary values than the alternative. No doubt his friends and family had invested themselves into him. It's not unreasonable to expect a return on that investment?

[mpx]

I really want to say something about this from my own point of view but I can't figure out how to word it without sounding like I pretend to know it all just because I went through it. But, I'm gonna try anyway...

Firstly, I don't think it's reasonable for people to "expect" an equivalent exchange in friendship and family. That's all I'll say on that.

I can see both sides, but in my personal experience, meeting with people both in my personal life and having an opportunity to speak with others who have attempted suicide through my therapy, none of them regret it failing. They actually seem to have a more positive outlook on life and seem to be extremely more productive.

All of them agreed that, at the time they were clouded by the deepest despair and depression, and it seemed like the only way out. However after getting adequate therapy to help overcome their personal demons, whatever it may be (in the cases I personally witnessed, depression, crippling anxiety, drug and alcohol abuse, sexual abuse) they realised that it wasn't what they wanted in the grander scheme of things. At the time they just wanted out - I can relate to that.

My anxiety was so high that I was exhausted, I couldn't even walk five steps to the bathroom without falling over because my legs were like jelly. I didn't want to die, I just didn't want *that* anymore, and the only way out that I could see (because I wasn't receiving any help) was to sleep, forever.

Some people said they were too proud to tell anyone, so they didn't get help and tried to commit suicide, which obviously came as a shock to their friends and family. Some kept it quiet because they didn't want others to worry. But they were all agreed that they are thankful they didn't succeed.

I remember reading a letter from an elderly man slipping into dementia and his body was deteriorating, he committed suicide because his quality of life was essentially over. While that would have been hard for his family and friends, I can understand that - he had lived a good life, was in his late 70s and was slipping into dementia so he stopped the ride before he forgot it all. I can understand that.

I don't know MadMax's friend but from experience, literature and fact based evidence that I have read, I could only come to the reasonable conclusion that he most likely only saw that as the only way out. Whether he was right in his mind at the time can be arguable and while I believe it's any human's personal right to have freedom with their own life, I also believe from my experience that some people can go so far down the rabbit hole (and still seem perfectly fine on the outside) that the only end result they can see is suicide.

I hope I didn't come across as preachy or insensitive (it seems this is all I talk about on here these days! That needs to change!), I'm just trying to put a specific viewpoint across.

[Cyberbob]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

Are you saying that if it was someone very close to you (your spouse or adult child or best mate etc) you would have no problem with their decision?

Logically, it's a little selfish. Let's dial it way back a bit for a second and play a huge devil's advocate card.

If your adult child or best mate decided they were going to live on the other side of the planet, and chances are you wouldn't see each other for the foreseeable future, and quite possibly ever, yes you'd have a problem with their decision, but it's an entirely selfish conclusion to come to. You're not giving a fuck about what they want for themselves, you're just caring about what you want.
You want them to stay in your life, end of story?

[pxpx]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

It's not unreasonable to expect a return on that investment?

Are you a robot?

[DrTiTus]

mpx, I sent you an email the other day to your profile email address, do you check it?

[Cyberbob]

If this stupid boating thing gets to 7/8 (9/8 on the water), they're going to go to court to combat the -2 penalty. Could be hung for months.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by mpx

Firstly, I don't think it's reasonable for people to "expect" an equivalent exchange in friendship and family. That's all I'll say on that.

Good post as usual, I just want to be clear that those values aren't necessarily mine, rather they are the values of the day as I see them.

Although my point is deeper than exchange. Rather, in intimate relationship I put myself into you (sexual isn't the only kind of intercourse), so there are parts of myself that I can really only experience with you. So if you kill yourself, you are also killing that part of me that I've entrusted to you. I'm sure most have heard bereaved people talking about how they feel like they've lost something of themselves when someone close dies.

[mpx]

Originally Posted by DrTiTus

mpx, I sent you an email the other day to your profile email address, do you check it?

I did just now, sorry! I ended up using my phone :D

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by Cyberbob

Logically, it's a little selfish. Let's dial it way back a bit for a second and play a huge devil's advocate card.

If your adult child or best mate decided they were going to live on the other side of the planet, and chances are you wouldn't see each other for the foreseeable future, and quite possibly ever, yes you'd have a problem with their decision, but it's an entirely selfish conclusion to come to. You're not giving a fuck about what they want for themselves, you're just caring about what you want.
You want them to stay in your life, end of story?

I disagree. Imo it's about caring about where what they want is coming from.

I would have thought that a response to suicide of 'no problem, it's your choice'- would be very much dependent on context.

edit: also thanks for your post mpx, very insightful

[Ab]

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

It seems more coherent with contemporary values than the alternative. No doubt his friends and family had invested themselves into him. It's not unreasonable to expect a return on that investment?

Your reading for this topic is a layman's summary of Kant's Categorical Imperative.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-moral/

[Ab]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

Are you saying that if it was someone very close to you (your spouse or adult child or best mate etc) you would have no problem with their decision?

Not saying that at all. My caveman brain and my caveman gonads are selfish. But the tiny bit of homo sapiens brain wrapped around the caveman brain tries to pretend that it's in the drivers seat at least some of the time, and it likes to think that it has a more enlightened concept of self and of moral agency.

[StN]

Originally Posted by fixed_truth

Are you saying that if it was someone very close to you (your spouse or adult child or best mate etc) you would have no problem with their decision?

Isn't the point that this guy had lost his spouse and kid so he had no one close?

[fixed_truth]

^Yeah that's what I was clearing up - whether Ab was talking about just this moral agent or moral agents in general.

[aR Que]

Originally Posted by StN

Isn't the point that this guy had lost his spouse and kid so he had no one close?

devils advocate.
Guy breaks up with partner, has no kids or family. Good to go on the noose?

I know what you're saying, if you wanna go, go. But bro, it depends on which one wants to go.

[Lightspeed]

Originally Posted by Ab

Your reading for this topic is a layman's summary of Kant's Categorical Imperative.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-moral/

I don't think I'm smart enough for Kant. Part of the struggle is I think it's nonsense to consider morals in the way they do, as if it is something real. I find Pratchett's views on morality much more accessible and interesting.

[Ab]

I'll simplify it then.

Human beings are ends, not means. The value of a human person is tied up with the collection of features that make us distinctively human, and these include the capacity to engage in self-directed rational behaviour through free will.

If my desire is to take the positive action of ending my own life and I act on this desire through my own free will without coercion or direction from a third party, then what's the big deal? Being kept alive against my will so someone else can obtain the benefit of my existence is fuckin' battery farming.

PS: still reeling that you compared Immanuel Kant to Terry Pratchett.

[Lightspeed]

I mean, obviously I can't argue with the greats like Kant, but I'm not smart enough to see how humans aren't both means and ends.

Personally I feel composed of multitudes, while part of me holds great hope in my future life, part of me would find death to be quite a relief. If the part of me that holds hope gets very small should the part of me that seeks death take the opportunity?

At the end of the day, I think what's rational and what's reasonable to expect are quite different.

[fixed_truth]

Originally Posted by Ab

If my desire is to take the positive action of ending my own life and I act on this desire through my own free will without coercion or direction from a third party, then what's the big deal?

Because for a lot of people the right intervention would enable them to live a normal life. Even if they can't see it.