Random Politics - Page 111

fixed_truth · 16th July 2018, 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab

Stephen Fry sums up my feelings well.

https://youtu.be/xv8QvnrUyUs

I think it's more a failure of democracy. Fry talks about fighting in a proper manner using democracy which would be fine if people felt like their democracy was any good at representing them. It doesn't and that's why we're seeing all these politically isolated groups flailing around best they can. I agree that the SJW movement isn't working. I also think Trump got in because the system allowed the highly unpopular Clinton to represent just because it was her turn.

In NZ we don't seem to have much of a SJW problem - or too many disillusioned white males drinking the Peterson cool aid. Perhaps it's because even though our democracy isn't perfect we at least have the option to vote for someone that represents us good enough.

Ab · 27th July 2018, 21:40

https://neckbearddeathcamp.bandcamp....welling-losers

Lightspeed · 2nd August 2018, 09:32

Inequality bad and getting worse.

The economy is performing well for a small minority of us. For the rest its going from bad to worse.

At some point something has got to give. Desperate people make easy targets for our alt-right friends.

Ab · 2nd August 2018, 09:52

Betcha all that growth at the top end is just “property values that were silly are now insane”. If you’re on the NZ urban-centre property merry go round you’re increasing your wealth by waking up in the morning. If you’re not, you’re fucked.

Apologies if this is explicitly pointed out in the linked article, cartoon infographics aren’t very readable on a phone.

Lightspeed · 2nd August 2018, 10:01

Nah mate, those on the top end are working hard for that money, adding value to the economy. /s

On the property front, the building industry sounds fucked.

https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/01...building-boom/

I get Labour sold something they couldn't deliver, which seems to be the property industry in general. But our politics aren't up for problems that require multi-faceted solutions as described in the article.

We need to upskill the poors, but fuck the poors, amirite?

Ab · 2nd August 2018, 10:28

Yeah saw that article too. Seems to sum things up.

Ab · 7th August 2018, 17:10

Political correctness gone mad!

.
.
.

No, I’m serious. It’s political correctness gone fucking mental.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12102601

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/10606...-from-speaking

http://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/about...D-352E72A76BB6

RIP Massey, shark jumped 2018.

Lightspeed · 7th August 2018, 20:30

Doesn't rate for me.

Okay, yes, it's a bit awkward. But the world hasn't gotten to the fucked up state it's in because on occasion people who have been heard loud and clear, over and over, don't always get to have the platform they desire to be heard from. Has it?

I'm beginning to suspect the importance of free speech has diminished. The powers that be now have levers that have nullified its significance.

Speak up all you want, if you do managed to get heard above the din, some cooked up bot-driven moral outrage will bury you.

Maybe someone can comfort me by telling me I'm an idiot and offer me a reality check.

Lightspeed · 8th August 2018, 00:23

So what about this business?

Facebook, Apple, YouTube and Spotify ban Infowars' Alex Jones

Ab · 8th August 2018, 02:20

please don’t even try and play false equivalency like that. It’s embarrassing.

fixed_truth · 8th August 2018, 08:40

Definitely an overreaction. But again it's not a black & white situation. It seems like it's about where this type of speech should occur. Which yes is a restriction of free speech but leads to questions around whether 'student space' is a private rather then public space & whether this allows for restrictions.

I think the problem with this response here is that it encourages calls to violence as a means to jeopardize unpopular speakers. Perhaps there needs to be extra funding set aside to provide for extra security to keep venues secure.

Also relevant (yes arguably Brash isn't quite on the level of hate speech) this Morgan Godfrey article this week highlights how it's a bit easier to be nonchalant about this type of speech when it doesn't affect you.

Quote:

This is where sensible people might ask: if none of it makes sense is it not better to ignore? It depends, but it’s worth remembering detachment is a luxury only some enjoy. For women, non-whites or any of the subjects of Molyneux and Southern’s rants, looking the other way is rarely possible.

Ab · 8th August 2018, 10:40

Quote:

@MorganGodfery
I love de-platforming fascists! But Don Brash isn't one of them.

This is dumb.

Lightspeed · 8th August 2018, 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab

please don’t even try and play false equivalency like that. It’s embarrassing.

They're clearly not equivalent. They're just both about freedom of speech, both occurring at the same time, both worthy of comment.

Ab · 8th August 2018, 14:06

Notes and text of Brash's speech revealed - shocking shocking stuff, no wonder the snowflakes are triggered

Lightspeed · 8th August 2018, 15:32

"See, I wasn't going to be a bigot this time!"

The alt-right win either way. They either get to spout their shit, or they get to cry about how "liberals" or some caricature of moderate values are a bunch of fascist meanies. Either way a few more people at the extreme hear the call. The centre shifts a little further in their direction.

But they won long ago really, when we stopped educating everyone, making sure everyone could take advantage of the opportunities available.

This is all a symptom, the pus from a deep festering wound.

xor · 8th August 2018, 15:53

The left can't be labelled as liberal if they want to censor the speech of others. Attempting to silence someone from speaking makes the left bigoted.

crocos · 8th August 2018, 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

This is all a symptom, the pus from a deep festering wound.

That sounds like a quote. Still, it's a good 'un.

Lightspeed · 8th August 2018, 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by xor

The left can't be labelled as liberal if they want to censor the speech of others. Attempting to silence someone from speaking makes the left bigoted.

What or who is the left? Who or what's the right that isn't alt-right for that matter? Surely the right aren't all bigots like Don Brash or fake news tweeters like Judith Collins.

xor · 8th August 2018, 20:07

Labour, Greens, and Auckland Council seem to be the main ones at the moment. Don Brash has attempted to gag publications in the past also so he too is a hypocrite.

People must be allowed to speak.

crocos · 9th August 2018, 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by xor

People must be allowed to speak.

Really? So you're happy for Moleneaux and Southern to come over here spinning their brand of racism and intolerance?

Ab · 9th August 2018, 12:40

Stuff to the rescue with a hot take

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/10610...eone-gets-hurt

[Malks] Pixie · 9th August 2018, 14:09

This Brash stuff is as dumb as it comes but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by xor

People must be allowed to speak.

People are allowed to speak - that doesn't mean that public or private organisations are required to give them a platform.

I mean Brash has a high enough public profile and economic resources that he gets to speak in many places that your average member of the public never would. Our media court him for opinion, he's written for papers and other publications, and he's spoken at both public and private institutions (both freely and paid for his time). His opinions are both easy to find and represented across a wide range of media.

If we want to talk about censoring speech then perhaps look to our own law society who bungled an investigation and filed a super injunction that would literally bar anyone from even acknowledging that the case even existed.

Ab · 9th August 2018, 14:35

Brash, a NZ citizen, former Governor of the Reserve Bank, former MP, and former National Party leader, was invited to speak about politics and his time in it by Massey University Politics Club. By the looks of the published notes the most controversial claim in his speech was going to be an observation that the last National government was "hugely disappointing" in part because of its failure to make housing more affordable to NZers.

That's it.

This is fucking social justice warrior bullshit, and in a sane world the Massey VC would be on a plane home to Australia.

* And in what universe is it OK for a Vice-Chancellor to tell a student association what they can and can not do? The students should have told the VC to get fucked. On general principles.

[Malks] Pixie · 9th August 2018, 15:00

Yeah I said it was as dumb as it comes didn't I?

As far as the VC's role, well they're responsible for the university and what goes on on its grounds (and in its name).

It was some poor person in the meatspace having to respond to bullshit social media bravado and over reacting.

SJW or Alt-right, same fucking tactics, same outcome.

Ab · 9th August 2018, 15:18

No it's not, you and I both know that the University Council has responsibility for that shit. The VC's role is that of head administrator and fundraiser.

Which is of course beside the point because a publicly-funded University has an obligation to facilitate events like the Politics Club's seminar series under the Education Act and the BOR Act. This is why we have universities.

xor · 9th August 2018, 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by crocos

Really? So you're happy for Moleneaux and Southern to come over here spinning their brand of racism and intolerance?

Yes, very happy that people have the right to express their views. No matter how repugnant. Why not debate them? Have a proper long form debate on TV and trash them? I'd enjoy it.

[Malks] Pixie · 9th August 2018, 15:34

Threats to health and safety (including actual physical threats) are literally an administrative matter. Went through a bomb threat Vic (obviously was a joke) and that was all handled through the VCs office.

xor · 9th August 2018, 15:49

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLNhPMQnWu4

Ab · 9th August 2018, 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Malks] Pixie

Threats to health and safety (including actual physical threats) are literally an administrative matter. Went through a bomb threat Vic (obviously was a joke) and that was all handled through the VCs office.

But (as far as I'm aware) there was no threat.

[Malks] Pixie · 9th August 2018, 16:14

Is this out of date? I haven't been following the kerfuffle closely to be honest.

xor · 9th August 2018, 16:21

They took a comment on the internet seriously and didn't implement any BCP to mitigate the mean people from Facebook. Sounds like BS imo.

[Malks] Pixie · 9th August 2018, 16:31

Yeah as I said it's an over the top response, but it is also in line with standard health and safety risk management practices (eliminate, mitigate, manage). They were able to eliminate the perceived risk, therefore never move onto mitigation or management.

fixed_truth · 9th August 2018, 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by xor

Yes, very happy that people have the right to express their views. No matter how repugnant. Why not debate them? Have a proper long form debate on TV and trash them? I'd enjoy it.

How about views on global warming? Money gives groups a platform to use factually inaccurate statements to mislead the public & thus stunting change. So if we're all fucked then oh well freedom of speech.

xor · 9th August 2018, 16:59

Yes, let them have their view. It doesn't make them correct. That's why you have discussion and INQUIRE FFS.

Lightspeed · 9th August 2018, 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ab

Which is of course beside the point because a publicly-funded University has an obligation to facilitate events like the Politics Club's seminar series under the Education Act and the BOR Act. This is why we have universities.

Maybe you're you're showing your age Ab. From listening to a lecturer from AUT, it seems universities are no longer what they once more. Today they are first and foremost businesses, lecturers operating under the purview of managers and administrators, rather than senior academics who have earned their tenure. Lecturers rotated through subjects on short term contracts.

Lightspeed · 9th August 2018, 20:19

*were

Lightspeed · 9th August 2018, 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by xor

Yes, very happy that people have the right to express their views. No matter how repugnant. Why not debate them? Have a proper long form debate on TV and trash them? I'd enjoy it.

How has that worked out for the climate change "debate"?

Ab · 9th August 2018, 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

Maybe you're you're showing your age Ab. From listening to a lecturer from AUT, it seems universities are no longer what they once (were).

This sounds all too plausible. SAD!

Doesn't change my assertion that the VC has, by my reading (IANAL) breached the Education and BOR Acts.

[Malks] Pixie · 9th August 2018, 21:25

Yeah this is very much the case, and uni's are more likely to see action against a health & safety breach than Edu or BOR Acts, thus it all becomes about a "safe operating environment" (if I had a dollar for every time I heard that phrase while working at uni I'd be about $500 richer than I am now, so not really significant but fuck I got sick of that phrase).

The entire things a fucking train wreck - and it's not likely to get better any time soon.

xor · 10th August 2018, 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightspeed

How has that worked out for the climate change "debate"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B9MqNzQuuk

It's worked out pretty well, as shown in this video.

27th July 2018, 21:40	#4402
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	Because politics https://neckbearddeathcamp.bandcamp....welling-losers

2nd August 2018, 09:32	#4403
Lightspeed	Inequality bad and getting worse. The economy is performing well for a small minority of us. For the rest its going from bad to worse. At some point something has got to give. Desperate people make easy targets for our alt-right friends. __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

2nd August 2018, 09:52	#4404
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	Betcha all that growth at the top end is just “property values that were silly are now insane”. If you’re on the NZ urban-centre property merry go round you’re increasing your wealth by waking up in the morning. If you’re not, you’re fucked. Apologies if this is explicitly pointed out in the linked article, cartoon infographics aren’t very readable on a phone.

2nd August 2018, 10:01	#4405
Lightspeed	Nah mate, those on the top end are working hard for that money, adding value to the economy. /s On the property front, the building industry sounds fucked. https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/01...building-boom/ I get Labour sold something they couldn't deliver, which seems to be the property industry in general. But our politics aren't up for problems that require multi-faceted solutions as described in the article. We need to upskill the poors, but fuck the poors, amirite? __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

2nd August 2018, 10:28	#4406
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	Yeah saw that article too. Seems to sum things up.

7th August 2018, 17:10	#4407
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	Political correctness gone mad! . . . No, I’m serious. It’s political correctness gone fucking mental. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12102601 https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/10606...-from-speaking http://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/about...D-352E72A76BB6 RIP Massey, shark jumped 2018.

7th August 2018, 20:30	#4408
Lightspeed	Doesn't rate for me. Okay, yes, it's a bit awkward. But the world hasn't gotten to the fucked up state it's in because on occasion people who have been heard loud and clear, over and over, don't always get to have the platform they desire to be heard from. Has it? I'm beginning to suspect the importance of free speech has diminished. The powers that be now have levers that have nullified its significance. Speak up all you want, if you do managed to get heard above the din, some cooked up bot-driven moral outrage will bury you. Maybe someone can comfort me by telling me I'm an idiot and offer me a reality check. __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

8th August 2018, 00:23	#4409
Lightspeed	So what about this business? Facebook, Apple, YouTube and Spotify ban Infowars' Alex Jones __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

8th August 2018, 02:20	#4410
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	please don’t even try and play false equivalency like that. It’s embarrassing.

8th August 2018, 14:06	#4414
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	Notes and text of Brash's speech revealed - shocking shocking stuff, no wonder the snowflakes are triggered

8th August 2018, 15:32	#4415
Lightspeed	"See, I wasn't going to be a bigot this time!" The alt-right win either way. They either get to spout their shit, or they get to cry about how "liberals" or some caricature of moderate values are a bunch of fascist meanies. Either way a few more people at the extreme hear the call. The centre shifts a little further in their direction. But they won long ago really, when we stopped educating everyone, making sure everyone could take advantage of the opportunities available. This is all a symptom, the pus from a deep festering wound. __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

8th August 2018, 15:53	#4416
xor	The left can't be labelled as liberal if they want to censor the speech of others. Attempting to silence someone from speaking makes the left bigoted.

8th August 2018, 20:07	#4419
xor	Labour, Greens, and Auckland Council seem to be the main ones at the moment. Don Brash has attempted to gag publications in the past also so he too is a hypocrite. People must be allowed to speak.

9th August 2018, 12:40	#4421
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	Stuff to the rescue with a hot take https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/10610...eone-gets-hurt

9th August 2018, 14:35	#4423
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	Brash, a NZ citizen, former Governor of the Reserve Bank, former MP, and former National Party leader, was invited to speak about politics and his time in it by Massey University Politics Club. By the looks of the published notes the most controversial claim in his speech was going to be an observation that the last National government was "hugely disappointing" in part because of its failure to make housing more affordable to NZers. That's it. This is fucking social justice warrior bullshit, and in a sane world the Massey VC would be on a plane home to Australia. * And in what universe is it OK for a Vice-Chancellor to tell a student association what they can and can not do? The students should have told the VC to get fucked. On general principles.

9th August 2018, 15:00	#4424
[Malks] Pixie	Yeah I said it was as dumb as it comes didn't I? As far as the VC's role, well they're responsible for the university and what goes on on its grounds (and in its name). It was some poor person in the meatspace having to respond to bullshit social media bravado and over reacting. SJW or Alt-right, same fucking tactics, same outcome. __________________ Civilised is as civilised does and civilised people walk among us.

9th August 2018, 15:18	#4425
Ab A mariachi ogre snorkel	No it's not, you and I both know that the University Council has responsibility for that shit. The VC's role is that of head administrator and fundraiser. Which is of course beside the point because a publicly-funded University has an obligation to facilitate events like the Politics Club's seminar series under the Education Act and the BOR Act. This is why we have* universities.*

9th August 2018, 15:34	#4427
[Malks] Pixie	Threats to health and safety (including actual physical threats) are literally an administrative matter. Went through a bomb threat Vic (obviously was a joke) and that was all handled through the VCs office. __________________ Civilised is as civilised does and civilised people walk among us.

9th August 2018, 15:49	#4428
xor	John Cleese vs Extremism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLNhPMQnWu4

9th August 2018, 16:14	#4430
[Malks] Pixie	Is this out of date? I haven't been following the kerfuffle closely to be honest. __________________ Civilised is as civilised does and civilised people walk among us.

9th August 2018, 16:21	#4431
xor	They took a comment on the internet seriously and didn't implement any BCP to mitigate the mean people from Facebook. Sounds like BS imo.

9th August 2018, 16:31	#4432
[Malks] Pixie	Yeah as I said it's an over the top response, but it is also in line with standard health and safety risk management practices (eliminate, mitigate, manage). They were able to eliminate the perceived risk, therefore never move onto mitigation or management. __________________ Civilised is as civilised does and civilised people walk among us.

9th August 2018, 16:59	#4434
xor	Yes, let them have their view. It doesn't make them correct. That's why you have discussion and INQUIRE FFS.

9th August 2018, 20:19	#4436
Lightspeed	*were __________________ Stay shook. No sook.

9th August 2018, 21:25	#4439
[Malks] Pixie	Yeah this is very much the case, and uni's are more likely to see action against a health & safety breach than Edu or BOR Acts, thus it all becomes about a "safe operating environment" (if I had a dollar for every time I heard that phrase while working at uni I'd be about $500 richer than I am now, so not really significant but fuck I got sick of that phrase). The entire things a fucking train wreck - and it's not likely to get better any time soon. __________________ Civilised is as civilised does and civilised people walk among us.