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Old 9th September 2020, 15:26     #1161
Lightspeed
 
Laugh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
If a person is religious, that person is by definition skeptical of science. It's no surprise that a lot of super spreader events have a religious connection.
In which field of academia would you find this definition?

Islam just called, they want their algebra and optics back.

I think you mean, political, not religious.
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Old 9th September 2020, 17:14     #1162
Cyberbob
 
It's a tough one that I have opinions about, but i know people far more versed in both religious studies and science that would be better at explaining the problems than I.

I don't feel like someone could be faithful in their heart and mind to so many concepts that should be considered true by someone devoted to religion, especially a religion such as Christianity. Basic concepts. Creation versus evolution. Genesis versus Big Bang, young earth versus old earth.

I'm not expecting science to disprove God, that's not where the burden of proof lies. But I'm also not expecting religion to have any desire to prove God to a scientific certainty, when a faithful certainty is evident through one's own interpretation of observation. 'I exist, therefore God exists' would probably be good enough for that person.

Is it simply a sliding scale, with faith on one side and science on the other? Or are there two independent sliders, allowing someone to be both a Priest or Rabbi, as well as professionally an evolutionary biologist or physicist with zero hypocrisy.
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Old 9th September 2020, 17:38     #1163
Lightspeed
 
I think most people raised in New Zealand learnt what they know about Christianity as primary children at school, just like their parents. That and how TV represents religion, which is dominated by the US. Science isn't much better, kids don't come out of school confident how to use science to make effective decisions.

At their most fundamental both are about finding ways of living effective lives. Believing your dead kid "is in a better place" is often the most effective approach a person has available to them.

Right now it's neither religion nor science that's standing in our way of making effective decisions. It's politics. It's people willing to say and do anything, to ignore any evidence, for the sake of keeping wealth and power in the hands of them and theirs. That scientific knowledge is gained not through disciplined effort, but conspiracy.
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Last edited by Lightspeed : 9th September 2020 at 17:40.
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Old 9th September 2020, 18:30     #1164
Nich
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Right now it's neither religion nor science that's standing in our way of making effective decisions. It's politics. It's people willing to say and do anything, to ignore any evidence, for the sake of keeping wealth and power in the hands of them and theirs. That scientific knowledge is gained not through disciplined effort, but conspiracy.

Bingo. There's nothing scientific about the policies being put in place, but yet people resisting policy decisions are very quickly labelled "anti-science". Data and science are reframed and cropped into the form of political weapons as it currently stands. No more seeking a verifiable truth, just clobbering one another with our set of carefully selected facts.
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Old 9th September 2020, 18:40     #1165
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
In which field of academia would you find this definition?
Welcome Ben Affleck
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Old 9th September 2020, 18:58     #1166
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Islam just called, they want their algebra and optics back.

I think you mean, political, not religious.
Science is a system of testing claims in order to separate the true claims from the false claims. Test ideas by observation or experimentation, build upon those that pass, reject those that prove false, follow the evidence no matter where it leads and never stop asking questions.

Religion is a system under which evidence can be unnecessary if belief exists; under which some truths don't require testing because the fact that they were revealed by a supernatural being makes them true.

To accept one system is to be skeptical of the other. That some people can convince themselves that it's possible to operate within both systems at the same time is, I guess, more a testament to the human mind's ability to tolerate cognitive dissonance than anything else.
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Old 9th September 2020, 19:29     #1167
Lightspeed
 
Science is what you'll see a three year old doing in the playground if you watch patiently enough. Discovering what can be understood about the world.

Religion is what you'll find more grown up children doing once they've exhausted their science.

That you can make systems of these does not make these things systems. Certainly we get some nice adult feelings when we do, and they're great when we want to impose ourselves over others. So yeah, nah. You can take your honky definitions and shove em.
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Old 9th September 2020, 20:03     #1168
Cyberbob
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
Religion is what you'll find more grown up children doing once they've exhausted their science.
Religion in that regard is an eloquent way of saying that we'll make up stories and things we know not to be true to make the scary unknown sound nice, e.g. You're not worm food and eternal nothingness when you die, you're in heaven with your friends, but only if you eat all your broccoli, follow these ten or so rules for being a GoodBoy™ and avoid these seven or so things that would make you a BadBoy™
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Old 9th September 2020, 20:05     #1169
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
No. Science is not doing stuff and watching what happens. That's just observation. Science is the system by which we separate the true stuff from the false stuff.

(Of course humans suck so we sometimes we hide answers we don't like, or ignore evidence that disproves something we've assured ourselves is true. But that just means humans are fallible, and it's up to other humans to follow the system more rigorously. The great thing about the system of science is that it's self-correcting. When done properly, it fixes previous mistakes.)
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Old 9th September 2020, 21:29     #1170
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
Welcome Ben Affleck
And Alanis Morrisette?
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Old 9th September 2020, 21:51     #1171
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
Bingo. There's nothing scientific about the policies being put in place, but yet people resisting policy decisions are very quickly labelled "anti-science". Data and science are reframed and cropped into the form of political weapons as it currently stands. No more seeking a verifiable truth, just clobbering one another with our set of carefully selected facts.
Quote:
The Government likes to say it follows expert advice - that is not quite true

Despite its scientific pretensions, the current Government ignores expert advice almost as often as it takes it on board.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...not-quite-true
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Old 9th September 2020, 22:23     #1172
Sidey
 
are you seriously still running this forum.. mad props to you!
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Old 9th September 2020, 22:45     #1173
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab
No. Science is not doing stuff and watching what happens. That's just observation. Science is the system by which we separate the true stuff from the false stuff.
Scientific discipline at its most basic is keeping accurate notes. Even if you're completely barking up the wrong tree, progress is keeping a record of that. Three year olds aren't disciplined but still experiment with the world and learn from those experiments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberbob
Religion in that regard is an eloquent way of saying that we'll make up stories and things we know not to be true to make the scary unknown sound nice, e.g. You're not worm food and eternal nothingness when you die, you're in heaven with your friends, but only if you eat all your broccoli, follow these ten or so rules for being a GoodBoy™ and avoid these seven or so things that would make you a BadBoy™
That's the trope. The story of religion as sold by people who set themselves to visit children in school.

Do you consider your sense of self a story you know not to be true? I consider my own self a story, but it's a true story. And it's also different from the stories others have of themselves, or have of me. Is there a real me? Is there a real you? I can definitely tell there's something there. What's going on?

If science has a way to grapple with this, it hasn't raised its hand yet.
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Old 10th September 2020, 15:00     #1174
Lightspeed
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
Bingo. There's nothing scientific about the policies being put in place, but yet people resisting policy decisions are very quickly labelled "anti-science". Data and science are reframed and cropped into the form of political weapons as it currently stands. No more seeking a verifiable truth, just clobbering one another with our set of carefully selected facts.
It's not accurate to say there's nothing scientific about the policies being put in place, the volume of resistance isn't coming from a place of appropriate knowledge. We can see the difference in practices, in quality of outcomes.

Health science is about making decisions in the absence of certainty, in the real world with all its complexity and competing pressures. It's about having a robust, coherent rationale based on the best knowledge available.

But right now it seems there's a question as to whether there is even a real world at all. There's no interplay between ourselves and the world. It's just us.
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Old 10th September 2020, 20:43     #1175
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightspeed
But right now it seems there's a question as to whether there is even a real world at all. There's no interplay between ourselves and the world. It's just us.
Easy on there Freddy
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Old 10th September 2020, 21:17     #1176
Lightspeed
 
It's not a question for us, what's playing out in the world is a lot different. It's not what's being said, but the unwillingness to commit to any point of agreement for fear that might be used to undermine existing power structures.

Lebanon is basically a microcosm of the world.
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Old 10th September 2020, 21:56     #1177
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Alwayshasbeen.meme
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Old 10th September 2020, 22:22     #1178
Lightspeed
 
I think it's a pendulum. Reality bites, we can only drift from it too far. We're drifting like a Vin Diesel film movie now.

I suppose it's always been true as well that people question whether or not the inevitable correction is survivable.
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Old 10th September 2020, 22:30     #1179
Lightspeed
 
YUO=LAME

film movie
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Old 11th September 2020, 15:34     #1180
Lightspeed
 
Covid-19 scepticism a failing of intellect, Phil Goff says

With our schools being such paragons of education, our society so just, people only have themselves to blame, amirite?
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Old 11th September 2020, 16:20     #1181
Know me.
 
Smart people can believe dumb things. I'm not even clear on what "sceptical about Covid-19" means. It could range from someone not believing that viruses exist all the way to Covid-19 is not as bad as is being made out in the media.
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Old 11th September 2020, 16:21     #1182
Know me.
 
"We've all signed up for the rules."

Underneath the attitude It could just be a "fuck you"
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Old 11th September 2020, 16:43     #1183
Nich
 
I'm going with the "fuck you" take.

Lot's of evidence of it around and it gets labelled as a "lack of intellect". It's a lack of intellect to not recognize when someone has a stiff middle finger aimed in your direction.

Draw a line in the sand, put a restriction in place and you're guaranteed people are going to come and test the limits. Especially if those people don't think too highly of the people making the restrictions.
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Old 12th September 2020, 15:36     #1184
Ab
A mariachi ogre snorkel
 
Aotearoa WTF

https://twitter.com/janepatterson/st...85881542483969
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Old 12th September 2020, 15:55     #1185
[LvN]N3misiS
 
facepalm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ab

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Old 12th September 2020, 16:41     #1186
Lightspeed
 
Oh man. Why can't we just get to fuck our kids AND have people grow up trusting public institutions, the government? Is that too much to ask?
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Old 12th September 2020, 20:30     #1187
Nothing
 
Turns out New Zealand has a bunch of fuckwits too.
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Old 14th September 2020, 18:57     #1188
Nich
 
"Protesting is not only selfish, but it's stupid." -Dan Andrews
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Old 14th September 2020, 23:02     #1189
crocos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
"Protesting is not only selfish, but it's stupid." -Dan Andrews
Right now, he's right. If we get this POS virus mostly eradicated then protests could be a reasonable thing again.

However context is everything and a comment like that is WAY too easy to use out of context, so you KNOW this is going to come back to haunt him.
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Old 15th September 2020, 12:28     #1190
Nich
 
Police hit Victorian man with car before stomping on his head
https://www.news.com.au/national/vic...d728c4873a2865

Check out this selfish and stupid guy.
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Old 15th September 2020, 12:56     #1191
blynk
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich
Police hit Victorian man with car before stomping on his head
https://www.news.com.au/national/vic...d728c4873a2865

Check out this selfish and stupid guy.
Relates to Covid how?

But I love this comment from the Police
“Upon arrival the man allegedly became aggressive and damaged a police vehicle whilst attempting to avoid arrest,” Victoria Police said.

Yeah, he damaged the car when they drove into him
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Old 15th September 2020, 13:09     #1192
Nich
 
Melbourne is testing out the "boot stomping on a face forever" method as a way to save us from CCP Virus.

It's sick that the hospital had called the police to alert them to a mentally ill man who needed to be brought back into care, and this didn't make them change their approach.
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Old 15th September 2020, 14:28     #1193
Nothing
 
When your only tool is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail.
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