Matrix Reloaded * WITH SPOILERS* (you are warned)

[Lumpy]

Originally posted by Mish-nz
Stuff...

Excellent post. Summarises many of the ideas that I've had about the story. I was leaning towards 2.2 after seeing the movie myself. But I guess we'll have to wait for the next movie to find out.

[seanske]

look at the signs fellaz

on the matrix 2 soundtrack theres a song called - p.o.d - sleeping awake

the lyrics go "dreaming of zion ...sleeping awake"

which links to the whole 'matrix within a matrix theory' that the ppl in the real world are dreaming of the zion 'matrix'

and in the matrix 1 : the kid goes all u need to do is realise the truth that there is no spoon

i believe this links to the matrix in a matrix theory again and how neo has realised the truth and gained powers in the zion (matrix) world

[r3x]

I think the main thing going against the whole "matrix within a matrix" idea is the storytelling complexity of it. I like it as a concept, but it would be hard to make a good movie out of, and it would also destroy much of the credibility of the animatrix films too (just a zion matrix fantasy).

I like it as a concept though, especially since it would explain much better the idea of Agent Smith transferring to Bane, since the idea of a software program copying itself into the human brain is just too far out.

[BadNova]

Originally posted by r3x
I think the main thing going against the whole "matrix within a matrix" idea is the storytelling complexity of it. I like it as a concept, but it would be hard to make a good movie out of, and it would also destroy much of the credibility of the animatrix films too (just a zion matrix fantasy).

The Thirteenth Floor did a pretty good job of it.

[r3x]

Originally posted by BadNova
The Thirteenth Floor did a pretty good job of it.

True, but not in the box office

[Robo-K1ll]

Won tickets to it on More FM - Barboy and I went at 7am :>

WICKED MUVI

[Axident]

Umm, look at the screenshot Mish posted. I'm not familiar with unix apps, but what is sshnuke requesting? Is that Z1ON0101 (zion5?) allocating Z10N0101 as the root password or requesting a passworded program from a remote location?


If it's a password, it's a rather odd choice for a password on a machine system.

[neonz]

Originally posted by Azmodan
What if the architect was lying? what if he was another program HMMM?

was the matrix not made by machines? there for he must be a program? yes?

[Azmodan]

WELL EXCUUUUUUUUUUSE ME!

disclaimer: I really dont care just stirrin'

[Bread]

For those of us who ignorantly walked out before the credits ended (really enjoyed the movie btw, although the rehash of the resurrection scene and the rave were kinda 'hrmm'), could we get a run down of the trailer?

[Spoon1]

Originally posted by seanske
look at the signs fellaz

on the matrix 2 soundtrack theres a song called - p.o.d - sleeping awake

the lyrics go "dreaming of zion ...sleeping awake"

which links to the whole 'matrix within a matrix theory' that the ppl in the real world are dreaming of the zion 'matrix'

and in the matrix 1 : the kid goes all u need to do is realise the truth that there is no spoon

i believe this links to the matrix in a matrix theory again and how neo has realised the truth and gained powers in the zion (matrix) world

"Sleeping awake" could mean that the person is finally "awake" and dreaming of Zion, in the sense that they've been freed from the Matrix and they're asleep (in the real world) dreaming of the city.

"There is no spoon" was simply to remind Neo that the perceived reality is just that - perceived. It's not real and he must free his mind and know that there actually is NO spoon before he can alter perception. I don't see any necessary relevance to this matrix in matrix theory...

[ZuldaN]

Oracle narrated, can't remember the gist of it. Street of a city completely lined with Smith's on the footpaths. One Smith faces off against Neo, they run up to each other and start fighting. Also shows clips of Zion and hovercrafts, and what look like giant hovercrafts.

[vitae]

All sold out tonight D:

[blur^]

its kinda silly really, he freed his mind at the end of the matrix, he could alter the matrix as he saw fit,



then in reloaded hes all like confined again and shit, oh he can fly whup de fuck, why didnt he just terminate the agents or smiths program by altering their code

[blur^]

Mish, fantastic sum up

good work on the screen capture, i really dig how they didnt bs with their "hacking" at least they made it look authentic,


i believe that it resetting the password to zion0101 or zion5


which is a rather ironic password for trinity to use isnt it?


and agreed, the zion matrix theory is great, but i still have doubts on how neo hacks back in, if its anything like how they were woken from the first matrix the whole body atrophy thing i doubt he would survive long in the real world :P and then theres the whole waking up in a world controlled by machines thing


and yeah the trailor cuts from showing hardcore fights scenes of the defense of zion and clips of Smith getting neo-uber powers, flying and shit and of course his big cheesy grin/laugh and a scene of Neo and Smith in the rain and smith welcoming him back (to the matrix?) then they rush each other for the showdown

[Spoon1]

Ok, put it this way. If there is a Matrix inside a Matrix and Zion isn't real and the fight isn't real and EVERYONE is still plugged in... there is no win.

None.

Even if Neo himself wakes up EVERYONE the machines could easily kill them because they have no weapons or strength. They could then start again (I'm ignoring the "no need for human-power" aspect for film-enjoyments sake).

It's also highly unlikely that all the machines are interconnected so that Neo could somehow infect them to bring them under control. If the plot does go this way I'd laugh - much like I did at the virus to alien ship scene in Independence Day.

This is a comic-like movie trilogy. It requires a comic-like ending where the good guys win. Sure, the W Boys could eschew that but I'm betting they won't and that in the end the humans win back their freedom. Thus - sticking with the Zion humans as actually being free is the most likely plot choice to allow this kind of ending.

----

There are a number of different possibilities for what Neo has discovered when he says he can "feel" the machines and stops them. How about this one. Neo *IS* a machine, albeit the most human-like one ever created and is created because of the need for "The One" by the Matrix to maintain control. POSSIBLE EVIDENCE: "The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. " Note that he says "return" and not just "go to" or similar. He also carries code - not something humans tend to do. His ability in stopping the sentinels stems from his awakening to his own nature and his links with the machines...

Anyways, I'm looking forward to the next one.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Azuth
And "agent smith replicating himself into the guy outside the matrix", wtf did this come from, he exited the matrix in the same way humans do. It stands to reason that if the code of the machines is written to accomodate a human mind, then the human mind could well accomodate the code of the machines, if agent Smith had been able to function in a 'Zion matrix' like he could in 'the matrix' surely he would have just gone on a massive killing spree, who would need a sentinel? Where did we see any evidence of Smith taking over others within Zion?

i don't remember any replication occuring outside the matrix (ie say, in zion) ... My theory is that he just took over the mind of the human, so that when the human 'returns', he has a plan set in motion to kill or create chaos.

[simcore_]

I was scanning through the page again and saw someone mention the part where Neo was going to get attacked by Bane (??) And someone gives him the spoon, I was thinking if it actually had something to do with the story..

"There is no spoon"
Now think of it in terms as things that you believe aren't really there and can be manipulated.

There is no Zion/2nd Matrix/Limitations to your power/whatever you want to put in <this> space (which would explain how he stopped the sentinels if he is actually in the real world

What did the Time review on it say ><?

[Uncle Gus]

I just watched the movie again. It was definitely better the second time for me.

[MadMax]

I found the movie difficult to take seriously to begin with, it felt like just another hollywood movie with too many cliche's and done-befores. I think it was pretty lame of them to try and replace the some of characters that died in #1 with lookalikes. You could say however this was deliberate.

Eventually i got over it, and enjoyed the movie.

[Trigger]

watching it the second time:
the highway car chase scene after Morpheus gets knocked off the truck by the agent and 'caught' on the hood of the car by Niobi

as the agent approaches the Keymaker I was just anticipating him saying "You are no longer necessary... BEPLETED!"

[Uncle Gus]

Nah, it goes like this:

KeyMaker: "We do what is required of us."

Agent: "Then you are required for one more thing..... BALEETION!"

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Mish-nz
2.1) Zion is bugfix.
Zion is a primary (or secondary depending how you look at it) Matrix, designed to capture the 1% of the population who ‘awaken’ and fool them into thinking they’ve escaped the matrix when all they’ve actually done is manage to escape into an ‘overflow’ Matrix put there as a bugfix to prevent that 1% from waking up ‘all the way’.

except, how could you explain all the monks that were begging neo for their family members to be brought back? Say neo brings someone back, surely that person *in the flesh* would then be re-united with their family? Sure you could argue against it, but it seems like too much effort was put into it.

Originally posted by Mish-nz
2.2) They never made it back.
Their final ‘return’ to Zion was somehow hijacked, so the first 2 hours of Zion were real but the last 20 minutes are just a simulation.

I like this one - the whole stepping outside of their ship seemed and felt like a no-no

[Spoon1]

Originally posted by MadMax
I think it was pretty lame of them to try and replace the some of characters that died in #1 with lookalikes.

Huh?

----

My biggest bugbear is that Tank is dead in Reloaded but he didn't die in the first one...

[Spoon1]

Originally posted by MadMax
except, how could you explain all the monks that were begging neo for their family members to be brought back? Say neo brings someone back, surely that person *in the flesh* would then be re-united with their family? Sure you could argue against it, but it seems like too much effort was put into it.

Um, dude, at this point Neo is unaware of his "purpose" and the people freed would have no idea whether it's "real" or not. I'm not sure what you're getting at here...

[Deadmeat]

Originally posted by Mish-nz
1.3) Got Root?:
Just a minor point but there are very few films who use tech. in a way that would work in the 'real world(tm)'.



Everything is this screengrab is possible in the 'realworld' (hell they're even using NMAP and an SSH1 CRC exploit), the only flaw you could pick is that they're 'hacking' a internal IP address (10.2.2.2) but they could already be inside the network in question or it could just be akin to the 555-xxxx prefix used for phone numbers in movies so that there's no chance of it being a real world phone number (or IP in this case).

I figured the reason that the IP was this is that because she had broken into the building she was already on the internal network (i dont know how the exploit works), perhaps she still had to hack into the server or whatever was running the grid.

2.) Zion.
We can speculate, but we weren’t given enough detail to be 100% sure of the direction the Wachowskis are going to take in Revolutions, here are the most likely choices:

2.1) Zion is bugfix.
Zion is a primary (or secondary depending how you look at it) Matrix, designed to capture the 1% of the population who ‘awaken’ and fool them into thinking they’ve escaped the matrix when all they’ve actually done is manage to escape into an ‘overflow’ Matrix put there as a bugfix to prevent that 1% from waking up ‘all the way’.

At the mo im leaning towards this being the most likely (likeable perhaps) ending. It was interesting remembering back to the first movie when Neo is talking to the Architect, about how the "first one" had set them free, and how the story fitted so nicely.

2.2) They never made it back.
Their final ‘return’ to Zion was somehow hijacked, so the first 2 hours of Zion were real but the last 20 minutes are just a simulation.

Dont like this one at all. Considering how good the brothers Wachowski have been with telling this story, i dont think (i hope) they would take this angle, its simply too cheese

2.3) Zion is real(a).
Zion is the real world and the sentinels that get taken down at the end weren’t taken down by Neo but by an EMP from either the botched counter-attack or from Naiobi's ship and just happened to coincide with Neo confronting the machines (his ‘feeling’ could be completely unrelated to the machines going down.)

Dont like this one for the same reason

2.4) Zion is real(b).
Zion is the real world and through his ‘mingling’ with Agent Smith inside the Matrix he now as the ability to somehow take down the machines,

This is probably the most likely 'one matrix' theory, though im not quite as comfortable with this one as i am with the 'dual matrix' theory.

Ill try and go through the rest in the morning

[Cyberbob]

From right after the movie finished i thought of the multiple matrix idea.. seems to be a pretty common idea

What if it was all just a program, and the origional matrix (the one from the first movie) is infact the real world, and there is no zion or anything, its all just in a VR program Neo made, and started with him waking up in the morning to a message on his computer screen "Wake up, Neo"
Its your cliche "It was all just a dream" scenario, but ya never know

[::Shocker]

Originally posted by blur^
its kinda silly really, he freed his mind at the end of the matrix, he could alter the matrix as he saw fit,



then in reloaded hes all like confined again and shit, oh he can fly whup de fuck, why didnt he just terminate the agents or smiths program by altering their code

Because look what happened to him the last time he tried to destroy a program (Smith). Smith evaded deletion and came back stronger and in more numbers than before.

Furthermore the new Agents are upgraded, and could well have some encryption or something which would block him trying to destroy them from the inside.

[Russian]

Heres my pondering: (this is for the single Matrix theory)

Morpheus said that there is 1 sentinel for every man woman and child in Zion. The Architect also said that with each time Zion is destroyed the machines become more efficient at it.

Now I'm thinking, they don't HAVE to destroy all the machienry in Zion, just all its inhabitants, 1 sentinel for each human.

As for the huge drills, maybe they just use those to drill a big tunnel down to Zion, drilling at a slightly different place each time, and then using a smaller drill, to drill several tunnels for the sentinels to enter.

I didn't read a whole bunch of other replies, so sorry if this is a repeat idea.

[SPONGER]

So how do you explain the fact the at end Neo could feel the sentinels, and then stopped them? If that was the real world then how did he gain the power to stop them before he went into the coma?

[Russian]

EMP from Niobe's ship fried the Sentinels ?

Him "feeling" the sentinels could just have been his relief that Trinity didn't die, like she did in his dreams.

And he went into a coma because he though the sentinels were going to rip him to shreds, or maybe when the sentinels get fried by the EMP they send out a discharge of some kind, that maybe what knocked Neo out.

[SPONGER]

So he went into a coma cause he was so scared? Heh.

Or if it was some kind of discharge- why were the others ie Trinity, Morpheus, and dread dude not affected?

Didnt you see an empty tunnel behind the sentinels after they were taken out?

And im not even gonna start on the "Him "feeling" the sentinels could just have been his relief that Trinity didn't die, like she did in his dreams" bit :P

[Phantom]

Ok, how about this for an idea.

There are no "evil" machines. The "Matix within a Matrix" thing is correct, but that "top level" matix is actually a human construct - to deal with population overload, something like that. I.e. the humans construct this thing, stick humans into it and invent this nasty machine thing as a backstory for those who don't accept the "reality" in which they find themselves.

The concept that people could do this to themselves is to abhorent a concept, so the concept of the machines and the backstory that lead to the conflict is invented. Maybe the earth was massively damaged in some sort of human war or other global catastrophy - I dunno.

Let's just say this - don't assume the machines are any more than metaphores, if the "Matrix within a Matrix" theory (which is what I got from the film) is legit.

[Russian]

Originally posted by SPONGER
stuff

Anything is possible, there is no "one way" not yet anyway.

An EMP is radiation, it travels through things in straight lines. So what if the tunnel was empty ?

Neo was the closest to the sentinels, thats why he got the full dose of the discharge (IF there was one).

Maybe the adrenalin knocked him out after he saw the sentinels coming in to kill him, and then drop suddenly. Post-Traumatic stress kinda thing.

And maybe the the "real world" is a "second Matrix", and that Neo has just realised he can manipulate it like the "first matrix"

Aaaanyway, you don't know for sure, I don't know for sure, so saying that "that can't happen because I know better" is a waste of time :P

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Spoon1
Ok, put it this way. If there is a Matrix inside a Matrix and Zion isn't real and the fight isn't real and EVERYONE is still plugged in... there is no win.

Which makes sense - the Matrix MMORPG takes place after the events in revolutions - inside the matrix.

[rubberchicken]

Originally posted by Cyberbob
Its your cliche "It was all just a dream" scenario, but ya never know

If it ends as an 'and then I woke up' story, the W. brothers may have to go into hiding.

[blur^]

the Logos crashed no where near the Neb, it was hundreds of miles into uncharted area,

im assuming you have finished ETM to know how/where/why they crashed,

if you havn't, they were being chased by a big sentinel army and niobe decided to go deeper into the earth, into uncharted tunnels to try and lose them, they outran one of those bomb things and set her down and set off an emp,

the reason why the emp is not what knocked out neo is because it has a very small range/radius

look at soren's ship, when they were hacked into the matrix trying to deal with the power planet security and the sentinels spotted them they were going to use the emp, but the squiddes were out of range and they chucked that bomb at them and nailed them

[SPONGER]

Originally posted by Russian
Aaaanyway, you don't know for sure, I don't know for sure, so saying that "that can't happen because I know better" is a waste of time :P

Yeah I know that dude, was just keeping the conversation going, and was interested in why you posted what you did.

[Reaps]

I like phantoms idea

[Russian]

Originally posted by SPONGER
Yeah I know that dude, was just keeping the conversation going, and was interested in why you posted what you did.

Fair enough

Remember though, Neo can't handle stress very well. In the first film after Morpheus shows him the real world, Neo collapses on the deck of the Neb, knocking himself out for a while in the process.